Ok, correction...So, the next best thing to do is to find a solid fund [hopefully ICAP is & will always be] & average down until run out of bullets.

What factors should we consider before putting money in closed-end fund like iCap, other than NAV?

Is dividend important? AFAIK, iCap hasn't given any dividend yet.

err.. how about factors like lelong/value in the sense of (current market price / NAPS)?
eg. say market price is $0.75 & NAPS is $1, thus there is a discount of 25%.
The next Q would at what discount would it be worthwhile to buy-in

Like what bro Gark puts it earlier somewhere (hehe sorry ar Gark, forgot where lar) - "it's like buying stocks at last time's prices", assuming last time most stocks crashed and now it's up. I like time travelling with stats . Remember - ICAP holds stocks as its assets.


Personally, for me it's a minimum of 25% discount.
BTW, i was aiming for similar discount for CIMBC25 hehe - saw the market price $ lower than NAPS by about 17%+ earlier but it has reduced now
Ya ya, that's an ETF.
Just similar thoughts on discount / lelong buying thinking, applicable to most stocks, REITs and even physical properties too mar.

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 1 2012, 05:25 PM

Icap is a closed end fund, there will be no dividend until the shareholders argees to dissolve & delist the fund. Those getting for quick gain might be dissapointed and have to wait for the longer term, that is why it is not so popular.

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Added on August 1, 2012, 5:31 pmLast time I bought, the gap is about 37%, once the gap closed off, I have already disposed of the share and made a bundle. Not interested to go in again unless the gap widens once more. For CIMBC25, CIMB acts as market maker, so it is impossible to have a 17% gap. If it does quickly buy as the bank will have to buy back from you at NAV.

This post has been edited by gark: Aug 1 2012, 05:31 PM

impossible meh CIMBS25
see attached screenshot - currently the market price and NAPS difference is about 13.3%.
Last month or two ago, i saw it hitting 17%+ difference wor
or i'm looking at the wrong NAPS and LAST PRICE hehe (i've it on Excel daily EOD, that's how i saw 17%+ variance)

holy crap.. 37% gap?!!
U must have made a killing there boss

impossible meh CIMBS25
see attached screenshot - currently the market price and NAPS difference is about 13.3%.
Last month or two ago, i saw it hitting 17%+ difference wor
or i'm looking at the wrong NAPS and LAST PRICE hehe (i've it on Excel daily EOD, that's how i saw 17%+ variance)


This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 1 2012, 05:37 PM

Thanks

No dividends? So it completely depends on whether somebody is willing to buy my shares at higher price. Then I must think carefully before entering

Thanks for your input, now i know. So it's ZERO HOPE for icap to one day gives dividend because of the closed end fund nature.
In past 1 year+, I've been constantly monitoring icap. The gap has been between 22-27%.

And ya, you are correct. I also constantly monitoring cimbc25, it hardly has a gap more than 1% in everyday closing price.

Yes, that is why everyone want low value shares and no one willing to pay higher.... unless super bullish period when Icap is trading at 10%-20% premium...in 2007/2008.

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Added on August 1, 2012, 8:32 pmNAPS is not accurate for ETF and Closed fund. You have to look at NAV, which is currently at RM 0.856. So CIMBC25 is currently trading at slight premium.

There is only one time which ETF traded significantly below NAV, and the culprit is MYETFDJ.. in which it was traded at 10% below NAV for only 2 days before the market maker (Am-Bank) quickly closed it off. Someone must be sleeping...

This post has been edited by gark: Aug 1 2012, 08:35 PM

Ah.. danke danke for pointing that out.
NAV posted/announced shd be the one - noted & remembered <now i'm wishing that NAV data is an available column in HLeB's platform heheh>

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 1 2012, 08:40 PM

I cannot find a reason, why an investors paid a 10~20% premium on a closed ended fund.
A slight premium may be justified, but 10~20%?

NAPS is NAV per share mah... You and WMK are talking about the same thing. But I notice that the info on Excelforce is often not up-to-date. It is better to check Bursa Malaysia website for latest info, e.g. this one announced on July 26...
http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed...cements/1021109

For PE values of other stocks, I usually do my own calculation rather than relying on Excelforce.

thank U for the link River.Sand
I was having visions of clicking on the donkey Excelforce's announcement every day.. eek

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 2 2012, 08:51 AM

presently NAV is Rm2.86 p share......140 mil shares issued

Say BUY out at 2.3 ...... profit 0.56...thats 24% profit.........

Am i mssin somethin here?

Worse - it's RM2.93 for Jul 26 based on http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed...cements/1021109
Yesterday closed at RM2.23
Thus, there's a 20%+ difference (i'm discounting in case Mr TTB had some sell transactions )

Yup, straight away "profit" statistically
However, effectively, someone has to value and willing to pay holder of shares the "proper market" / NAV value before that profit can be unlocked.
There, just like your Gold horde

But as i understand with my moo brain, the NAV is based purely on stock prices, right?
Buy up the Rm140 mil shares(if at all possible), sell them in mkt..........

Your risk is a 20% downturn.. say 40 cents profit makes a cool Rm56mil wor...........

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Aug 2 2012, 09:11 AM

Yar U can buy it up but the "release" / sell portion and whether your buyer is willing to pay NAV or more is the key to the profit here.
ICAP's NAV is made up of its holding value of stocks & cash, and based on that its NAV may be $2.xx but say (EXAMPLE ONLY AR) if everyone in the market (and their mothers) hates TTB, and no one's willing to touch his closed ended-fund, how lar to unlock the "intrinsic value profits"?

It's like if i'm the only one who values it, buys it then forced to sell it later.. but NO ONE wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole unless at half-priced lelong, hangus lar saya unless i have the holding power.

Buy up the 140mil shares and DELIST wor....Unlock value by selling the shares in the open mkt ler, nomore ICAP.......

Am i still missing....

Heheh - DELIST? ok sorry i think i missed that.
Yeah, U'd make a quick 20%+ killing. Realistically though, TTB may come have a word with U first heheh.

Many rich nuts do that with conglomerates....its called UNLOCKING value or whatever.
This one seems more straight frward....buy 51% of mkt....offer GO and delist.