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 ICAP, traded price higher than NAV

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prophetjul
post Apr 1 2011, 09:22 AM

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http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=5108.KL...ource=undefined

i am not sure about the comments that Icap has been good in performance....against the KLSECI its ok....not great.
Many have out performed the KLSECI...its no big deal

But if you look at the performance of Icap since 2006....it has not even revisited its high in 2008 yet!

Whats the big deal? rolleyes.gif

Even me a small cikku has out done my high in 2008! biggrin.gif
the snowball
post Apr 1 2011, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(hpcp @ Apr 1 2011, 09:08 AM)
If "It has nothing wrong because the fund manager and the research house is a different person and a different entity. Public Mutual and Public Research is independent from each other. What the equity researcher does, do not benefit the fund manager and vice versa.... If this sort of thing happen in US, I think SEC would have at least send a letter to question the apparent lack of seperation between their newsletter(advisory) business and their fund management business."

For you info, the newsletters business and fund management team are run by different group of staff
*
Who do you think is the one that is making the buy and call decision? ICapital staff turnover is very high, do you want some inexperience ppl to make those decision? You trust a fresh grad with a buy and sell call? The final decision to buy and sell remains with TTB, not anyone else.

If it is really manage by different group of staff independent of TTB major say, you will be looking into portfolio overlap between the two newsletter, why did ICap newsletter and ICap fund management has so much overlap in portfolio?

No matter how you see it, there is a question of conflict of interest.
tohff7
post Apr 1 2011, 02:04 PM

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hi hpcp and snowball,

There is no point for you guys to argue. Both of you guys have your own views, and i must say, some it's right, and some it's wrong.

Caveat: I'm an ex-ICap staff

This post has been edited by tohff7: Apr 1 2011, 02:05 PM
HJebat
post Apr 1 2011, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(tohff7 @ Apr 1 2011, 02:04 PM)
hi hpcp and snowball,

There is no point for you guys to argue. Both of you guys have your own views, and i must say, some it's right, and some it's wrong.

Caveat: I'm an ex-ICap staff
*
tohff7,
Which part is wrong, mind to share? hmm.gif
tohff7
post Apr 2 2011, 12:00 AM

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Oh well, here it goes.

Mr. Tan is not front-loading his newsletter readers
Let's get two things clear first. One, every buy and sell decisions for ICap fund management business is done by Mr. Tan himself. Two, buy or sell call by the newsletter advisory is done by his analysts. Of course, he will supervise, but he usually won't change his analysts' recommendation (only once he changed it as far as i was still there).

Why the conflicting calls between the two? Well, the main reason is because you are referring to a not-frequently-updated stock call list. The only time a buy/hold/sell call of a stock is being reviewed is either when; 1) The stock is being featured in the newsletter; or 2) Quarterly reporting. So, when Mr. Tan sell off a particular stock from his ICap fund due to whatever reason, the old recommendation is still there. And no, he never ask his analysts to issue a report or publish a short note subsequently to reflect his disposal. Hence, it appears that he is front loading, but he is not. You are just looking at an outdated stock call list.

Furthermore, there is no target price in their stock call list, simply because there is none in the first place. So you don't even know when a Buy call stock is already overvalued.

And do you guys really believe that the newsletter have the "power" to push up share price of a particular stock? A piece of advice if you really want to use the newsletter to invest. Just look at the paper portfolio in the newsletter and monitor what is the latest purchase or disposal by him. That is his conviction pick (which will usually be what he buy or sell for his actual fund portfolio). Ignore the stock call list and maybe also the company analysis.

Btw, i am the analyst who put a Hold recommendation on Axiata. Previous Buy call was done by other analyst who left the company shortly after i joined. In between the period i joined the company and issuing a report on Axiata, there is this Axiata rights issue and disposal by Mr. Tan (of which, the Buy recommendation was never updated during this period). Will this clear things up?

No "China Wall". In fact, why need "China Wall" at all in the first place in ICap?
To say investment advisory and fund management business is run by different group of staff is half-truth. After all, Mr.Tan is the fund manager, and he is also the head of research.

Mr. Tan have a team of analysts to cover stocks, and the main purpose is now more towards churning out report to fill in the weekly newsletter, rather than finding investment ideas for his fund. This is especially true after majority of his senior analysts left the company. On the fund management side, practically there is no one else except Mr.Tan.

This post has been edited by tohff7: Apr 2 2011, 12:02 AM
HJebat
post Apr 2 2011, 12:59 AM

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Wow, thanks tohff7 for your explanation.

I need some time to reread the whole thread again.

Then maybe come back to ask you some Qs laugh.gif
SUSMNet
post Apr 2 2011, 01:28 AM

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why ICAP turn over rate of employee is high?
tohff7
post Apr 2 2011, 01:54 AM

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hmm..go to the Job & Careers and see lor...
HJebat
post Apr 2 2011, 03:29 PM

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Whoa, that is one really terrible working environment!

tohff7, guess you guys never been treated to the company's annual dinner la shakehead.gif
firee818
post Apr 2 2011, 06:04 PM

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Suggest Topic description need change to:

ICAP, market price traded below NAV.

1/4/2010 Market price = RM 2.18
NAV = RM 2.68


kinwing
post Apr 15 2011, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(the snowball @ Apr 1 2011, 11:10 AM)
Who do you think is the one that is making the buy and call decision? ICapital staff turnover is very high, do you want some inexperience ppl to make those decision? You trust a fresh grad with a buy and sell call? The final decision to buy and sell remains with TTB, not anyone else.

If it is really manage by different group of staff independent of TTB major say, you will be looking into portfolio overlap between the two newsletter, why did ICap newsletter and ICap fund management has so much overlap in portfolio?

No matter how you see it, there is a question of conflict of interest.
*
Now I know where Snowball comes from commenting CD brows.gif till the job thread.
the snowball
post Apr 15 2011, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(kinwing @ Apr 15 2011, 05:04 PM)
Now I know where Snowball comes from commenting CD brows.gif till the job thread.
*
Haha, this are the few places I visit lo..but I comment here more, but, still not regular though...
firee818
post May 11 2011, 06:29 PM

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Buy in ICAP 5 lots @ RM2.25.
Show bullist trend
Huge discount from NAV

Market price RM 2.25
NAV RM 2.73
Nearly 20% discount.

Or else u miss the boat.
SUSMNet
post May 11 2011, 08:05 PM

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will add more @ 2.20

2.25 is too high for this time
HJebat
post May 11 2011, 08:59 PM

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QUOTE(tohff7 @ Apr 2 2011, 12:00 AM)
Oh well, here it goes.

Mr. Tan is not front-loading his newsletter readers
Let's get two things clear first. One, every buy and sell decisions for ICap fund management business is done by Mr. Tan himself. Two, buy or sell call by the newsletter advisory is done by his analysts. Of course, he will supervise, but he usually won't change his analysts' recommendation (only once he changed it as far as i was still there).

Why the conflicting calls between the two? Well, the main reason is because you are referring to a not-frequently-updated stock call list.  The only time a buy/hold/sell call of a stock is being reviewed is either when; 1) The stock is being featured in the newsletter; or 2) Quarterly reporting. So, when Mr. Tan sell off a particular stock from his ICap fund due to whatever reason, the old recommendation is still there. And no, he never ask his analysts to issue a report or publish a short note subsequently to reflect his disposal. Hence, it appears that he is front loading, but he is not. You are just looking at an outdated stock call list.

Furthermore, there is no target price in their stock call list, simply because there is none in the first place. So you don't even know when a Buy call stock is already overvalued.

And do you guys really believe that the newsletter have the "power" to push up share price of a particular stock? A piece of advice if you really want to use the newsletter to invest. Just look at the paper portfolio in the newsletter and monitor what is the latest purchase or disposal by him. That is his conviction pick (which will usually be what he buy or sell for his actual fund portfolio). Ignore the stock call list and maybe also the company analysis.

Btw, i am the analyst who put a Hold recommendation on Axiata. Previous Buy call was done by other analyst who left the company shortly after i joined. In between the period i joined the company and issuing a report on Axiata, there is this Axiata rights issue and disposal by Mr. Tan (of which, the Buy recommendation was never updated during this period). Will this clear things up?

No "China Wall". In fact, why need "China Wall" at all in the first place in ICap?
To say investment advisory and fund management business is run by different group of staff is half-truth. After all, Mr.Tan is the fund manager, and he is also the head of research.

Mr. Tan have a team of analysts to cover stocks, and the main purpose is now more towards churning out report to fill in the weekly newsletter, rather than finding investment ideas for his fund. This is especially true after majority of his senior analysts left the company. On the fund management side, practically there is no one else except Mr.Tan.
*
What is the main purpose for Icap to have subscription fee based weekly newsletters? hmm.gif
kinwing
post May 13 2011, 06:05 PM

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QUOTE(HJebat @ May 11 2011, 08:59 PM)
What is the main purpose for Icap to have subscription fee based weekly newsletters? hmm.gif
*
The weekly magazine 'ICAP' is not belonged to icapital.ibz Berhad, instead it is under the fund management company, i.e. Capital Dynamics, who is the fund manager of icapital.biz Berhad.

I think the main reason of collecting fees for the weekly magazine by Capital Dynamics is to sustain the operation of the magazine since the magazine does not contain any advertisement, except for the advertisements for its own funds icapital.biz, ICAP Global Fund and ICAP Value Fund.

This post has been edited by kinwing: May 13 2011, 06:09 PM
firee818
post May 13 2011, 08:03 PM

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One way for Mr Tan to improve the market price of ICAP is to purchase its own shares. ICAP's issue capital = 140 million. 10% buy back would required 14,000,000 x 2.24 = RM 31,360,000.00.

ICAP has cash in hand amounting to RM 100,000,000 which is sufficient to buy entire 10% own shares without borrowing. Hope Mr. Tan take into this into consideration in next AGM.
kinwing
post May 13 2011, 08:06 PM

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QUOTE(firee818 @ May 13 2011, 08:03 PM)
One way for Mr Tan to improve the market price of ICAP is to purchase its own shares. ICAP's issue capital = 140 million. 10% buy back would required 14,000,000 x 2.24 = RM 31,360,000.00.

ICAP has cash in hand amounting to RM 100,000,000 which is sufficient to buy entire 10% own shares without borrowing. Hope Mr. Tan take into this into consideration in next AGM.
*
Tan had already mentioned unless the discount is very deep like 40% to 50%, or else he won't consider to execute share repurchase. Anyway, i think if discount go up to 30% already can consider to share buy back loh, just a way giving out dividends to shareholders.
HJebat
post May 13 2011, 09:03 PM

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QUOTE(firee818 @ May 11 2011, 06:29 PM)
Buy in ICAP 5 lots @ RM2.25.
Show bullist trend
Huge discount from NAV

Market price RM 2.25
NAV  RM 2.73
Nearly 20% discount.

Or else u miss the boat.
*
QUOTE(MNet @ May 11 2011, 08:05 PM)
will add more @ 2.20

2.25 is too high for this time
*
Did you guys bought ICAP shares during the 2008 crisis?
My average entry price was RM1.55.
Is it wise to add my position at the current price of RM2+? hmm.gif

QUOTE(kinwing @ May 13 2011, 06:05 PM)
The weekly magazine 'ICAP' is not belonged to icapital.ibz Berhad, instead it is under the fund management company, i.e. Capital Dynamics, who is the fund manager of icapital.biz Berhad.

I think the main reason of collecting fees for the weekly magazine by Capital Dynamics is to sustain the operation of the magazine since the magazine does not contain any advertisement, except for the advertisements for its own funds icapital.biz, ICAP Global Fund and ICAP Value Fund.
*
Ooo...thanks for your infos.
I have to rephrase my question : What is the main purpose for Capital Dynamics to have a weekly newsletter?
firee818
post May 14 2011, 12:42 PM

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QUOTE(kinwing @ May 13 2011, 08:06 PM)
Tan had already mentioned unless the discount is very deep like 40% to 50%, or else he won't consider to execute share repurchase. Anyway, i think if discount go up to 30% already can consider to share buy back loh, just a way giving out dividends to shareholders.
*
If ICAP fall below its NAV by 40%, I will withdraw my ASW and buy in more. Think that Padini cost RM 0.28, now trading at RM 1.13 with almost 20,000 lots in ICAP's hand, it is worth to let Mr. Tan to manage my fund.


Added on May 14, 2011, 12:51 pm
QUOTE(HJebat @ May 13 2011, 09:03 PM)
Did you guys bought ICAP shares during the 2008 crisis?
My average entry price was RM1.55.
Is it wise to add my position at the current price of RM2+? hmm.gif
Ooo...thanks for your infos.
I have to rephrase my question : What is the main purpose for Capital Dynamics to have a weekly newsletter?
*
Hi HJebat,

I bought ICAP way back to year 2006 after 1 year it listing. I m not apply for ICAP listing nor buying after its listing. The main purpose for me to buy after one year is to see the ICAP's performance. My 1st purchase was at the price of RM 1.15, then accumalating over the years, now I m holding quite a few but I m not bother to calculate my average price since I m holding for long-term. My last purchase was 5 lots @ RM 2.25. Will accumulating in future when I have surplus fund.

BTW, I don't bother what Composite Index is moving nor looking at overbuy or oversales. My intention is looking for long-term investment. Till now TTB still not disappointing me.
Maybe this is what Mr. Tan describe as ICAP's shareowner as I just buy/accumulating but never sell till now. smile.gif

This post has been edited by firee818: May 14 2011, 12:57 PM

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