Vietnam market http://www.mathaba.net/rss/?x=564413 It works out to $5000 -$15,000 ( best senario ) per HA a year. ha = 850 trees =$15,000 Div 850 =$17 x 5 years growth = $85 a tree. Kit $30, maintance etc....... WOW soon they can retire. now they growing 3x as many! There must be a better investment then a tree that may or may not give you a return per year of $8. In fact don,t most fruit trees have a better rate of return and you don,t have to kill them, Rubber , many more.

HOHOHO

Hi Jolly Green Giant,

Whoops, please be careful not to shoot yourself in your own foot. The link you provided says that "growers can earn a profit of between 100-300 million per ha of do tram (agarwood) tree per year".

"Profit" means the costs of growing, resin inducement, etc, have already been accounted for!

Best regards,
HF.

Sorry if i,m rubbing salt into your wounds buddy. I see you are still avoiding the question. What grade does the kit produce? You state on your own site the value is $1,000 kg ( arn,t you afraid of getting sued? oh ya its Lao ) so what grade is it? Have you done a buyback offer and for how much? You said you do. I have been told B & C and have provided many links to the value. What have you shown us? Nothing but a link to your kit sellers web site claiming high value. Why are avoiding the question? Sure different countrys have different names for the grades but the price is the same for what ever they call it. If you like, give the grade of your product in what ever country you like. This is a farm product not a wild one, the grade and results are consistant.What grade is Med-High that is worth $1,000 kg? You can confirm 1/8 yourself by stating the number of kits that the company have sold. Lets see if you will. By the way I have it from your company. Discredit the kits? Have I said anything about the kits? You mean YOU don,t you. You made claims, I discredited them. You can correct me with facts if you can, but we both know you can,t or you would. Lets have some facts, not so happy farmers.

HOHOHO

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Added on June 19, 2008, 1:21 pmWOW !!! your right! so the value of thr trees is $85. hahahahah. What happened to 200- 500 grams @ $1,000 kg old boy. Doesnt quite fit does it. Thats the best case too! it could only be $28. Thanks for agreeing

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Added on June 19, 2008, 1:43 pm"The link you provided says that "growers can earn a profit of between 100-300 million per ha of do tram (agarwood) tree per year"." I noted you modified the quote so folks would thats $s when in fact its VND @ about 17,000 to 1. If they plant more then 850 a ha then the value per plant could be even lower hmmm. WOW Could be that the trees are only worth $20 - $60 bucks after all that work and years of waiting. Not a very good return is it. Happy I see you have read the question again and still will not say what grade the kit produces. Your silence tells us the truth.


This post has been edited by jollygreengiant: Jun 19 2008, 01:43 PM

Hi Jolly Green Giant,

Thanks but there is no need to apologise. What wounds are you talking about?

No I am not avoiding the question. I already stated long ago in this thread that the CA Kits produce good quality agarwood chips worth US$1,000/kg. That is a fact and is based on reliable information from someone I trust, and not on my own personal experience. Perhaps you want me to interpret "good quality" in terms of your grading system (A, B, C, etc) but as I explained earlier what I might call A and what you might call A may be entirely different. I also told you that the CA Kit will produce a range of grades (from high to low - black wood to white wood). Actually I just received some information yesterday from Vietnam giving a breakdown of the amounts of 9 different grades in a recently harvested tree and the results are considered to be spectacular but I am not allowed to publish this information yet.

Yes we have offered to make buyback agreements with potential customers of CA Kits, but so far only one customer has entered such an agreement with us. Last week, we bought back the first trees we treated/harvested, though this was not part of any original agreement with the plantation owner.

Regarding how much we offer to buy back trees for, I have no reason to share this information with you. Obviously, we will want to offer a relatively low price to give us a good profit but not so low that the seller is not satisfied. The price will also depend on the number of trees, quality, size, location, etc. We tell the tree owner that he/she may get a better price selling to another buyer and they are free to do so if they wish. They may even negotiate a better price with us at the time of sale. Our buyback price is only intended to provide confidence for the CA Kit buyer; i.e. they can be sure that they will be able to sell the tree and make a profit.

"The price is the same for whatever they call it"??? I am sorry I don't understand what you mean. But there's no need to explain. Anyhow, I think you are now admitting that there are no international grades, right?

Whether "farm product" or "wild product", it is still a biological product and every single tree is different. The grades and results are not as consistent as you suggest (for example I already mentioned a yield range of 200 - 500 grams)

No I cannot confirm this myself. I do not know how many CA Kits have been sold, applied and treated-trees harvested but I know it is very small because the kits have not been in the market very long and it takes a year to get the agarwood from the treated trees. That is why I do not believe your suggestion that CA Kits have already caused prices to fall.

As far as I know, despite your not-very-jolly attempts, you have not discredited anything I have said.

Yes I am right and I am sorry to say you are wrong again - this time you seem to be confusing "profit" and "value". We can't know the value of the tree (i.e. it's selling price) from the information provided in the article.

No, you are mistaken, the web site did not allow me to copy and paste and I simply forgot to write "VND". I think most of the intelligent people following our discussion know that "100-300 million" meant VND not USD.

You are shooting yourself in your own foot again (confusing value and profit). I suggest you remain anonymous in order not to embarrass yourself in public.

I think I have answered this question already, but if you are not satisfied with my answers, then so be it.

Now please forgive me but I find your posts rather puerile and I do not have time to keep correcting your mistakes, so I would like to end this dialogue here. I am sure you will want to take some parting shots at me, so please go ahead and do whatever makes you happy and I will do the same.

Goodbye and best regards,
HF.

"Ha Noi (VNA) – The Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development plans to zone off 30,000 ha for growing fragrant do tram (aquilaria crassna) trees, which produce resinous heartwood, a highly valuable product commonly used in the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industries.

The Ministry will also transfer the technology for essential oil refining to farmers under a plan set till 2010.

At a symposium on the development of do tram tree held in Ha Noi on September 17, experts estimated that growers can earn a profit of between 100-300 million VND per ha of do tram tree a year.

Currently, Viet Nam has more than 10,000 ha of do tram trees, mostly in private farms. "

Why did you change the quote happy? 3 X to be planted! What will that do to the market? The CA kit site says a 6-9 year old tree ( 10cm dia ) will produce and average of 225 gms med-high chips. Your site says 5 year tree and you have stated at times 3 year old tree and up to 500 grams.You say the grade varies, break that down for us in percent of what grade. Provide us with names of companies that are buying this product at $1,000 kg. Tens of thousands of kits sold and you can,t provide any buyers or even state what the grade is LOL. You said in Vn they sell this for $1,000 kg and say so on your site but do not say what grade they sold it as? Why is that? You say you will buy back trees at a agreed price but have you? Has any one? I heard in Thailand they can,t sell the kit because of patent infringment, yet thailand remains one of the largest producers of plantation product, how is that? Cites must be allowing them export permits. Perhaps plantation owners should shop around toward other methods that don,t cost as much as the kits. I,m sure this will get a response from you haha. I have read that there are other non-patent methods that produce chips in almost the same volume as the kit. If the kit costs 30- 60% of the profit then maybe the other methods are cheaper and just as viable. I guess thats why you don,t want the growers to know the real value of the chips produced by the kit because then you would shoot yourself in the foot.

HOHOHO

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Added on June 19, 2008, 4:19 pmJust like I said, only OPINION and no facts. This from someone who makes a lot of cash from selling the kits.The ca site has no problem stating A grade how can they do that if this is so varied?! 3 years of using the kit in VN and ten years of testing and no one can say what grade it makes LOLOLLOL .Do you think any one really believes that. Can,t publish the finding? hahhah I can see that, its better that no one knows how BAD the results are! if they were good why would it be a secret?Yes 9 grades is a system in use so tell what grades and how much the kit makes? You already said $1,000 kg so what grade is that? You bought back trees but of course thats also a secret because then every one will want to LOL. Like at this point you are believeable. Still no list of buyers? Can,t tell from the article? it was very clear and I had no problem pasteing it either. If you can do the math then you can see what the value is per tree. Too much for you? Shall i explain again. No need really is there. The readers understand you do not want to admit the real value of the trees. i can see why you would like to end the little chat. Every one of your posts shows you only offer opinion and suggestion but no real facts. In fact you have tried to twist the truth and refused to answer basic questions.So you say folks should buy kits from you and plant trees because you heard from somebody. Your kidding right?

HOHOHO

If you can,t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

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Added on June 19, 2008, 4:45 pmI will try to exlain this to you like a 6 year old so you understand.

100,000,000 VDN = around $5,000 usd so a farmer can expect a profit of $5,000 usd per ha per year.

850 trees per ha = $5,000 Div 850 trees = $6 per tree.( if they plant more then this then its less $ per tree )

5 years of growth X $6 = $30 ( this could be 6-9 years of waiting but same rate per year )

A 5 year old tree has a profit to the farmer of $30.


Or according to happy 30 gms @ $1,000 ? ( or is it 200 gms @ $150 kg. wasnt this price $250 a couple of years ago? ) LOL.

But remember don,t tell anyone the facts
just give them hype and rumors of riches.
( CA internal memo )

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Added on June 19, 2008, 5:22 pmhttp://www.cropwatch.org/agardistil.htm

This is interesting. I think claims were made of chips containing 30% oil. Get the facts

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Added on June 19, 2008, 5:50 pm"The process of agar deposits is not fully understood. A Dutch paper from 1933 (J. P. Schuitemaker, "Het garoehout van West Boreno" Boschbouwkundig Tijdschrift Tectona Uitgave der Vereeniging van Hoogere Ambtenaren bij het Boschwezen in Nederlands Oost-Indi 26:851-892) reported the occurrence of agarwood in Borneo and discussed many different types of resin produced in trees. Most of the local people at the time believed that agarwood formed from mysterious ways and was associated with the spirit world. The author stated that "the mysterious occurrence of the `holy` wood is connected to supernatural powers" and that agarwood was referred to as "wood of the gods." The author also noted that "we cannot exclude the possibility of a pathological occurrence of which the cause was unknown," that "perfect trees never have agarwood," and that agarwood "is formed around wounded or rotting parts of the trunk." The author also suggested that salt put into holes in trees might promote resin. The paper also stated that if the agarwood was infectious, maybe it would be possible to induce agarwood formation by infecting the trunk artificially by putting fresh cut agarwood into the stem."

This is interesting. 1933, I wonder if they took out a patent?



This post has been edited by jollygreengiant: Jun 19 2008, 05:50 PM

huh? gaharu wood is not a tree, it is the barks of the tree of some species i fortgot the name that have been infected by a type of fungus which creates a fragrant resin that is worth money... isn't it? correct me if i am wrong

Yes it is a tree......Agarwood. Yes it is worth money. How ever there is not much to made growing this tree unless you started 6 years ago and most who are doing well started 15 years ago.

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Added on June 20, 2008, 11:46 amIts interesting to note that VN has 10,000 ha already planted in agarwood. At 850 trees per ha that works out to 8.5 million trees ( this number to triple starting as of last year ). We know that the average age for a tree to reach 10cm is 7 1/2 years. The average growth rate for this tree in Dia is 1.30 cm per year. We know that these plantations were started about 10 years ago with yearly increases in planting.We know that kit use started 2 1/2 years ago just as the first trees reached 10 cm. I think we can guesstimate that on a rolling basis at the start ( 2 1/2 years ago ) 20,000 kits were used. Last year 40,000 and on track this year for 100,000. Research has shown that for the market price to remain stable 200,000 trees per year are harvested, ( granted these trees were wild and most likely twice the size and with illegal smuggling we can assume the real global market is of plantation trees 800,000 ). The kits have already displaced 1/8 of the market and the more kits that are sold the lower the market price for agarwood will be. At some point they will be forced to drop the price of the kits just to sell them. Standard supply and demand. Dreams of creating new markets are years away and main stream manufacturers want inexpensive materials. Dreams of getting fantastic riches by using this product are created by the kit sellers to make them rich. Secret reports of amazing results to wet your appitite, rumors from trusted friends reported as fact that tons of cash is just waiting for you to take delivery.Is it not clear to anyone reading this that if the kit produces a good product they would be advertizing the fact from the highest hills?Your told 200 -500 gms @ $1,000 per kg but its impossible to state what grade that is? Do you see the scam.Your told 3-4-5 year old trees can produce but you are not told that the average tree will not be ready for 7 1/2 years. Your told 200- 500 gms but reported data claims 200 - 250 grams average. Your told they will buy back the trees from you but claim condtitions are secret.Why not if the return is so good come out and make a clear statement that they will buy the trees back for say 10 % less of the $1,000 kg they claim? I know a farmer in lao who would be very happy to sign a contact like that. Its not going to happen though because the plain fact is that the kit does not produce like the seller claims and is ripping off poor farmers who don,t know any better. Sad really that what was supposed to be something that would help end poverty of the poorest of the poor is being used by big business as a tool to make the rich richer.

HOHOHO

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Added on June 21, 2008, 3:34 pmRubber latex is extracted from Rubber trees. The economic life period of rubber trees in plantations is around 32 years – 7 years of immature phase and about 25 years of productive phase.

The soil requirement of the plant is generally well-drained weathered soil consisting of laterite, lateritic types, sedimentary types, nonlateritic red or alluvial soils.

The climatic conditions for optimum growth of Rubber tree consist of (a) Rainfall of around 250 cm evenly distributed without any marked dry season and with at least 100 rainy days per annum (b) Temperature range of about 20oC to 34oC with a monthly mean of 25 to 28oC © High atmospheric humidity of around 80% (d) Bright sunshine amounting to about 2000 hours per annum at the rate of 6 hours per day throughout the year and (e) Absence of strong winds.

Many high yielding clones have been developed for Rubber plantation. These clones yield more than 1,500 Kilogrammes of dry Rubber per hectare per annum, when grown in good conditions
At 9 rm kg =13.500 Rm ha per year. Thats $4,100 usd per ha. If the Vn farmers are $5,000 per ha it would seem better until you realize that rubber produces for 25 years and agarwood is a one year crop. In fact if you think about it rubber returns are about 5X better!I heard from a trusted friend close to the kit sellers in VN that the grade the kit makes is B & C. The wholesale price to the farmer is if your lucky and the price does not keep falling $230 kg. The only ones getting $1,000 kg for this grade are brokers in the major selling hubs who are selling to arabs etc and not in the volume a farmer needs to sell at.There is no way its a good idea to start planting these trees. Look around for a better investment and don,t be fooled by con men.

HOHOHO

This post has been edited by jollygreengiant: Jun 21 2008, 03:34 PM

Happy Farmer hi,

We didn't do any research on CA kit since it's been done on trial basis by several government based institution to our wild Aq Malaccensis trees. The results were taken early this year and i believe it's not appropriate for me to discuss about the results.

++ we did contact Healthy Business @ Pandan, Kl last year regarding CA kit

+++ I don't think that doing testing are unnecessary and although it comes with a certain cost, it's not a waste.

Good to share some info bout your product dude...

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Added on June 22, 2008, 11:58 amI totally agree with this statement.

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Added on June 22, 2008, 12:12 pmHi amirbashah,
still worried about the pruning stuff? Dude stop by again at our place and i'll be happy to help u out bro

Yeah me too eetsitna...
and i would like to suggest that we all should meet up, a TT session or some sort of gathering would be great


This post has been edited by growproject: Jun 22 2008, 12:12 PM

wow.. this thread has been hotter than ever... especially with the argumentative posts between jollygreengiant & happy farmer.. i find it interesting and quite enjoyable... both have their own facts and opinions that we all could take into consideration, especially for those who wants to invest in the cultivated agarwood industry. this would be a great picture of the industry's scenario today.

but all i can say is we industrialist have plenty of options regarding this matter. and i'm not worried about the future market. since the grading and pricing is very subjective, and it gets very complicated, it's all about how good we market our product.

just my 2 cents... cheers bro!

wat kind of specie ?

Subjective like when you take your chips to market and they are subjected to supply and demand. I see you are another conponent of the "secret results" camp. What a great way to sell kits, don,t tell the public what they do. By the way I also know what the kits can do from the company them selves. Why don,t you just ask them, and then you will know that the grade is B & C. Take a chip to market and they will tell you the chip is B & C and what the price is. There is no confusion in the grading except the one the seller would like to create to cover up the fact that the kits & agarwood make less as an investment, then many other crops. Didn,t you have some posts before also trying to sell people seeds, etc. One could say you also benifit from selling this idea. I guess as long as you make money its alright to tell a little lie.

HOHOHO

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Added on June 23, 2008, 9:54 amAh yes here it is. #4 inoculant services. No doubt you are the local kit seller and make money by pushing this bad investment. Of course you have to say the grades vary and the price is fantastic! Another sales man pushing his product. Why don,t you offer some links to facts in stead of rumors.

HOHOHO

This post has been edited by jollygreengiant: Jun 23 2008, 09:54 AM

It is good to know that this thread is getting popular lately!!! Anyway, I will be in KL on the 1st to 2nd of July. So anyone wants to organize a small get together?

can i joint it. i intend to invest also lo i stay in cheras. my phone is 012 6827607 .

count me in dude , would love to meet agarwood farmers

We need someone in KL to organize this. Please arrange a place that is easy for a non-KL guy like me to go. XD I will suggest somewhere around Bukit Bintang area on the 29th. Ooo do keep it in mind that we are all sitting together to exchange information and discuss about gaharu. Please restraint yourself from promoting your service or product. Cheers!!!

This post has been edited by eehtsitna: Jun 28 2008, 11:45 AM

eehtsitna
count me in...

Since no one is going to take up the job of organizing the gathering, I would suggest something like this;

Venue: Starbuck Coffee, Berjaya Time Square
Time: 1400
Date: 29/06/2008
Attendance:
1. eehtsitna
2. neilson1312
3. ammar
4. Sham903n
5. amirbashah

The reason that I suggested that place is that I am familiar with the area. Starbuck should be cosy enough for everyone to sit down and chat about agarwood. You have to pay for your own drink though since we dont have a sponsor.

For anyone who is interested in the gathering, please pm me your contact number so that I can add you into the list and inform you of any changes to the plan.

See you guys later!

This post has been edited by eehtsitna: Jun 28 2008, 08:03 AM

Please make it on weekends I have to go to work that day.......

There isnt any changes to date. I am flying over this evening. See you guys tomorrow then!

Just got back from the meeting but unfortunately only a few guys came. Eehsitna, Neilson and myself. What happen to you guys who didn't come?