I was referring to salvation in OT and NT. Are you saying that the OT saints did not receive this?

i think he refer to 'promised' as salvation, instead of a savior as people normally believe

I didn't say they didn't receive Salvation. They did but they didn't receive it immediately (For OT Saints). They too had to wait for Christ.

See the post on Hebrews 11 I posted.

Once anyone is imputed righteousness, they are justified unto salvation. So we see the OT are already imputed righteousness in their faith in God.
The saviour is God anyway.
So as some like to point out, the OT look forward to the saviour. The NT looks back to the saviour.
But both are justified by faith in God.

You are not clear.
You mean that the OT did not receive salvation in their times.
Romans 4 contradicts your statement.

It's not my statement

But Hebrews 11:13-16 & 39 - 40


Hebrews 11

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,
40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

See verse 13 & 39.

Verse 40 tell us when they received it.

This points to the heavenly country, not salvation.

Hebrews 11 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

When one becomes heirs of righteousness, they have received salvation.

I'll admit it's a bit of a mystery for me when it comes to the Old Testament saint of being saved.

I can agree the Old Testament saints were saved in the same way as the New Testament Saints which is by Faith in God and by God's grace alone, nothing to do with works of the Law. Nobody is denying that.

However I'm talking about timeline. Is it right to say the OT saints didn't receive Salvation until Christ finished his work? Or did they immediately even before Christ finished his work?

The BIble is very clear. Without the Shedding of Blood, There is No Forgiveness of Sins, pointing specifically to Christ's divine blood.

If you say that they did even before Christ finished his work, then how were their sins removed? <===This???? As we all know Christ has not died yet.

Being forgiven is one thing but to remove sins is another matter.

Because the confusion lies very easily by relating when one is saved you are eligible to enter heaven.

And Hebrews 11:13-16 & 39 - 40 clearly tells us they didn't received the promised of heaven until Christ came.

We cannot deny the truth of scripture in Hebrews 11:39.

BTW the word country is not really there in the Greek, it's there to help signify a place.

What is your opinion?

============================


If its' TLDR, just focus on the 2 points in bold.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 7 2023, 09:19 AM

you know, atonement. each time they sin, they make sacrifice. then after new covenant is in force with crucifixion of jesus, then no more atonement is needed

How does God forgive us of our sins?

1. God’s forgiveness is cleansing in nature.

“…on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.” - Leviticus 16:30

2. God’s forgiveness pardons sinners.

“In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth.” - Numbers 14:19-21

3. God hides our sins and does not hold them against us.

Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit. - Psalm 32:1-2

4. God forgiveness is purifying at its core.

“Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin…Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” - Psalm 51: 2; 7

5. God forgiveness is infinite in nature.

“The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever, he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.” - Psalm 103:8-12

6. God’s forgiveness is redemptive in character.

“Israel, put your hope in the Lord, for with the Lord is unfailing love and with him is full redemption. He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins.” - Psalm 130:7-8

7. God’s forgiveness is transformational.

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. - Isaiah 1:18

8. God moves our sins out of His sight.

“Surely it was for my benefit that I suffered such anguish. In your love you kept me from the pit of destruction; you have put all my sins behind your back.” - Isaiah 38:17

9. God chooses not to remember our sins anymore.

"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” - Isaiah 43:25

10. God dissipates our sins forever.

“I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you.” - Isaiah 44:22

Special note: “Nothing can more strikingly represent sin in its nature and consequences, than a dense, dark, frowning cloud that comes over the heavens, and shuts out the sun, and fills the air with gloom; and nothing can more beautifully represent the nature and effect of pardon than the idea of removing such a cloud, and leaving the sky pure, the air calm and serene, and the sun pouring down his beams of warmth and light on the earth. So the soul of the sinner is enveloped and overshadowed with a dense cloud, but pardon dissipates that cloud, and it is calm and joyful, and serene.” –Albert Barnes

11. God’s forgiveness is ultimately substitutionary.

“We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” - Isaiah 53:6

12. God’s forgiveness gives us a right standing before with HIm.

“After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge, my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.” - Isaiah 53:11

13. God’s forgiveness does not dredge up our sins anymore.

“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” - Jeremiah 31:34

14. God’s forgiveness washes away all of our sins.

“I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.” - Jeremiah 33:8

15. God’s cleansing forgiveness is restorative.

“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.” ­- Ezekiel 36:33

16. God’s forgiveness is merciful in essence.

“The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him.” -Daniel 9:9

17. God’s forgiveness is profoundly freeing and utterly complete.

“Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. - Micah 7:18-19

18. God’s forgiveness removes our sins to replace them with His blessings.

“See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” - Zechariah 3:4

https://garyrohrmayer.typepad.com/yourjourn...rgives-sin.html

Those verses explain the nature of God. There must be a righteous foundation of why God can forgive. If God would simply sweep sins under the carpet just like that, there is no justice. Even the link you provide say at the end.

" By canceling our sin and paying for it with the death of his own Son" <==there is the righteous foundation of why and it points back to my 2 questions in bold still unanswered.


In simple term, still doesn't answer my questions.

==============

PS. Animal Sacrifice are atonement = temporary cover, but doesn't remove sins. My question ask on removal of sin.




This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 7 2023, 10:41 AM

let me tell you my understanding, OT saints make atonement for their sins, which is temporary cover (as long as it is done out of faith, because without faith, no atonement can please god) and they are in followship with god which mean their sins is forgiven. If they die in faith then they will go to heaven. but not yet since there is sin of adam that yet to be covered. Abraham was promised a savior for that effect, and he see jesus and his day and are happy. so jesus atonement fulfil all the requirement.

Which points back to another question I also ask.

Is it right to say the OT saints didn't receive Salvation until Christ finished his work?

nope, with faith, their salvation is assured.

So in other words even without Christ's Blood they can be saved?



Does it mean their sins were removed just like that?

oh ya, their faith, which include believing a savior to be sent already imputed as their righteousness. which is definition of faith

As i have pointed out: The OT points to the future Messiah and the NT points back to the Messiah.
Whether the OT or NT saints, we live by faith in Messiah.
The sacrificial lamb in the OT points to the sacrifice for sins. The Day of Atonement points to the sacrifice. Whenever the high priest carries out the yearly lamb sacrifice, the people accept their forgiveness from God BY FAITH. That was the shedding of blood. And they do it every year.
Likewise, Jesus became the fulfilment of that sacrifice. NT saints have not seen Jesus as the Lamb. Therefore, we still live in faith of the Messiah called Jesus, whose blood was shed for us all.
The only difference now is there is no longer requirement of the yearly blood of lambs. Jesus' sacrifice is ultimate sacrifice. Once and for all. Hebrews 10

So, the common denominator is FAITH IN GOD.
Scriptures tell us that faith in God brings imputed righteousness and therefore justification. Both for OT and NT saints.

Don't confuse heaven and imputed righteousness by faith unto salvation.

None of the saints are in heaven yet.

This is interesting. Is that the general Protestant understanding? Or is it peculiar to some particular denominations only?

What is your understanding?
Presumably Roman theology is purgatory.

https://youtu.be/BOwPXAGmdjc

Enjoy this song..

Moses and Elijah disagreed wit u since they met Jesus in the mount of transfiguration

unless u said God pluck them out from hell beforehand..

and wat about Lazarus who resides in Abrahams bosom according to Jesus?

that cannot be in hell isit?