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 Military Thread V28

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jwst1313
post Sep 18 2021, 05:53 PM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 18 2021, 04:42 PM)
Unlikely to happened.hahahaha

BNS is not MMEH. BNS is relatively new shipyards with not much experience nor have much commercials customer. And thus they relied heavily on their monopoly of navy ship building & maintenance. Without a navy contract they don't have money and thus they won't be able to finish the ship.  Like it or not gov need to transfer them the money first not them handing over ship 1st before getting paid.
The problem at BNS is not the lack of good engineer it's the lack of capable & talented management. When the ringgit goes to the drain, rather than trying to salvage and complete at least some ships (that's would win them public & thus political support) they priorities prepaying overseas suppliers. As it is ,it's impossible to cancel the other 2 ship as all the material are already paid for and are here. You can cancelled it buy you ain't getting much saving from it.

MiCa missiles hasn't been bought,what they bought is only the mica launchers. Not sure if current arrangements can enable mica er to be install or not. If you go around and install tacticos might as well just use ESSM. Completing a ship for the sake of completing a ship like the kedah is something we shouldn't do anymore. The ship are build to do a particular task, if it can't do that particular task, you are just wasting money operating & maintaining those ship.

For a custom solution this one bolehlah priced, the belharra frigates afterall cost RM3.5 billions per unit inclusive of R&D cost. RM 2 billion per unit if the R&D cost are absorbed by their taxes payers.
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Finally i hear it. You do not have expertise die die want to redesign and buy blue print and try built all 6 here in an inexperienced shipyard not even build a small 800 tons corvettes prior to that. And you want to leap before you craw to built 6 stealth 3100 tons vessel

If this way as said by respondent , maybe IF LUCKY government pay balance rm$3.12 billion, max get only 2 vessels. One vessel RM$4.5 billion for ASW 🤑🤑 or it too bad all goes to scrap yard rm9.12 billion

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 18 2021, 06:02 PM
alexz23
post Sep 18 2021, 05:53 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 18 2021, 05:52 PM)
I have no idea. Maybe. Yakhont is impossible due to CAATSA.

VL MICA is short range right? They are looking at Medium Range VLS.
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VL MICA NG is medium range. exactly same size as original VL MICA.

Frozen_Sun
post Sep 18 2021, 05:56 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 18 2021, 05:43 PM)
Yes more towards AAW role while the FREMM is for ASW role.

Unconfirmed it will be 24 x VLS CAMM-ER.

For the SSM they are looking at VLS. Don't know if there is any Western type SSM VLS.
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CAMM can be quad packed in Sylver VLS...so theoretically 24 x 4 = 96 CAMM
azriel
post Sep 18 2021, 06:02 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 18 2021, 05:53 PM)
VL MICA NG is medium range. exactly same size as original VL MICA.
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Yes i know i thought you are referring to the standard VL MICA. Anyway its unconfirmed. Maybe it could be also the VL MICA NG.

This post has been edited by azriel: Sep 18 2021, 06:11 PM
alexz23
post Sep 18 2021, 06:08 PM

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QUOTE(Frozen_Sun @ Sep 18 2021, 05:56 PM)
CAMM can be quad packed in Sylver VLS...so theoretically 24 x 4 = 96 CAMM
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CAMM the original 25km version can be quadpacked.

CAMM-ER is larger than the original CAMM, so no idea if can quadpack or not.

user posted image

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 06:10 PM
Lampuajaib
post Sep 18 2021, 06:23 PM

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QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Sep 18 2021, 01:48 PM)
Well PT PAL has proven themselves again and again. They built many 7,000 to 10,000 tons support ships to Asean countriez and even to TLDM.

Talk to Indonesia engineer on  a subject and then you talk the same subject to a Malaysian engineer. See the difference .

PT PAL and ST Marine Engineering. The rest No.
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It is not the engineer fault.
There are many excellent engineer in BNS, but what can they do?
Lampuajaib
post Sep 18 2021, 06:46 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 18 2021, 05:30 PM)
PT PAL Indonesia just officially disclosed the Babcock Arrowhead 140 specification for the Indonesian Navy. The weapons especially the missiles will be FFBNW.

Engine
• Main Engine 4 x 9100 kW
• Max speed 28 knot MCR
• Endurance 18 knot 9.000 NM

Armament
• MR VLS 3 x 8 cell SAM
• LR VLS 4 x 8 cell SAM
• LR VLS 2 x 8 cell SSM

https://pal.co.id/2021/09/publikasi/news-be...fregate-kemhan/
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Just as Martadinata class...build the platform first and installed the weapon system later which is now already installed.
The different with Kedah is Fit For But Never With

Lampuajaib
post Sep 18 2021, 06:51 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 18 2021, 01:56 PM)
.
given a good design, Indonesia can build any ships.

but locally designed ships? the KCR60 is not something i consider as a good ship. The concept of that tank boat is idiosyncratic at best.
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I'll take KCR 60 than LMS anytime....at least the price is right.
darth5zaft
post Sep 18 2021, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Sep 18 2021, 05:53 PM)
Finally i hear it. You do not have expertise die die want to buredesign blue print and built all 6 here in an inexperienced shipyard not even build a small 800 tons corvettes prior to that. And you want to leap before you craw.

If this way maybe IF LUCKY government pay balance rm$3.12 billion, max get only 3 vessels. One vessel RM$3 billion for ASW 🤑🤑
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Technically that shipyards had built the kedah.

I have no idea why there's plenty of Malaysian that Like to look down to their own country & citizens like they are some bunch of kayangan dwellers.

Lack of commercial customer does not mean that engineer are bodoh & bebal. Cannot glue together some steel. It just mean they don't have the cash flow to embarked on a project without financial injection as they don't have other sources of income.

Even if they didn't 'reinvented' the wheel and goes for a existing blueprint, the price you pay as Alex had mentioned is still the same. The increase in cost is mostly related to the oil crisis that fuck the ringgit not because we bodoh bebal Don't know how to glue together a ship. To be fair to BNS, no one really see the oil crisis coming.

We bought a french ship after all and french ship are freaking expensive.
French ship was choosen not just probably for songlap. But french stuff was a geopolically correct move back then as PRC back then hasn't gone completely ting tong as they did now, and trying not to offended them was a good geopolitical consideration back then.

The lack of management expertises as I mentioned doesn't mean the management are bodo bebal. It's just mean the put their priorities in the wrong place. The original idea was to immitate the Korean and Japanese. To keep churning ship and build upon it as they go.

user posted image

And to do that, it's easier to just work with a single suppliers in this case DCNS and thus why the shipyards fight tooth & nail to keep all french spefication. Also the likely reason why BNS purposefully handicapped the LCS to just a ASW platforms rather than general purpose. It mean they can get more order on ships. General purpose would give navy the excuse not to order more.

The management problem here is they didn't mean that they are wrong not to consider what their clients want and care more for themselves. As crisis hit, they still want to build 6 ship rather than just go out and finished just 4 or something. Not to say from a business perspective a bad strategy.

BNS bussiness management is not abnormal or bodo. Milking thing if you have the opportunity too or being a dick when situation allowed it is basically what is thought at all bussiness school tongue.gif why u think Jeff bezoz is such a dick? Or why apple the SJW worrior build their phone in a almost slave laborer camp style sweatshop ?. I mean no one see 2018 gov change coming and no one really put it as a risk factors. If 2018 didn't happen, gov would just quietly top up the money & ask the navy to just accept it. BNS would still be the ultimate winner milking the navy to kingdom comes.

2018 gov change give some opportunities for the navy to break free from being continuously being milk by BNS, they saw the opportunity and they took it. Of course to achieve those 'freedom' the LCS are being the sacrificial lamb. Technically if the navy pejam sebelah mata and sign things even if they didn't want too they could get 2 ship ready now, the gov would also likely inject the capital needed for the remaining 4.and everything would just go on as normal.

Also puji PT PAL & ST marine also no use. They are playing the same game as BNS. A monopoly who get all navy contract. At the very least we know our navy tak suka. Hard to say if RSN & TNI-AL love the ship they got or the ship they got or the weapon, fixture & fittings they got is the ship they wanted in the 1st place or if the ship they got can fulfill their mission objective.
azriel
post Sep 18 2021, 07:50 PM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 18 2021, 06:55 PM)
Also puji PT PAL & ST marine also no use. They are playing the same game as BNS. A monopoly who get all navy contract. At the very least we know our navy tak suka. Hard to say if RSN & TNI-AL love the ship they got or the ship they got or the weapon, fixture & fittings they got is the ship they wanted in the 1st place or if the ship they got can fulfill their mission objective.
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Actually PT PAL only got contracts to built the Martadinata Class PKR and KCR-60M.

The Indonesian MoD have been giving alot of Navy contracts to Indonesian private shipyards to built the Teluk Bintuni Class LST, Oil Tankers, KCR-40, Patrol Boats PC-40 & PC-60...etc.

This post has been edited by azriel: Sep 18 2021, 07:52 PM
darth5zaft
post Sep 18 2021, 07:56 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 18 2021, 07:50 PM)
Actually PT PAL only got contracts to built the Martadinata Class PKR and KCR-60M.

The Indonesian MoD have been giving alot of Navy contracts to Indonesian private shipyards to built the Teluk Bintuni Class LST, Oil Tankers, KCR-40, Patrol Boats PC-40 & PC-60...etc.
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thought they also built the Makassar and would soon build the submarine, fremm & type 31?
azriel
post Sep 18 2021, 08:03 PM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 18 2021, 07:56 PM)
thought they also built the Makassar and would soon build the submarine, fremm & type 31?
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Sorry forgot the LPDs. But they don't get all the navy contract lah like you mentioned.
SUSKakwen
post Sep 18 2021, 08:04 PM

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Actually why mlalaysia not buy 054 frigate from china. Cheap cheap 200 millions only compare 600m for france
darth5zaft
post Sep 18 2021, 08:17 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 18 2021, 08:03 PM)
Sorry forgot the LPDs. But they don't get all the navy contract lah like you mentioned.
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Ok lah they got lots/some of it unlike ST marine & DCNS
jwst1313
post Sep 18 2021, 08:29 PM

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I have a question.

The LCS Gowind 3100 tons Maharajalela, why must built all in Boustead?

Would it be an advantage if:-

1) 1st and 2nd vessels built in Naval Shipyard France, with Boustead engineers there. Technologhy and engineering skill transfer to local engineers in actual advanced ship building and commissioning of a stealth warship

2) Balance 4 vessels built here.

Ever considered this option? Would it be a better option since engineering knowledge and skill aquired from the 1st and 2nd vessel learned from the designer Naval Group in France.

The Gowind already cost RM$9.12 billion. It is a huge investment. Might as well invest another RM$250 million for a team staying in Naval Group for 3 years. It is worth the investment and training

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 18 2021, 08:30 PM
alexz23
post Sep 18 2021, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Sep 18 2021, 06:51 PM)
I'll take KCR 60 than LMS anytime....at least the price is right.
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I wouldn't choose any of them.

the latest KCR batch 3 number 5 and 6 which is fully armed cost Rupiah 800 miliar or around 56 million dollars each.

https://money.kompas.com/read/2019/08/02/16...-rp-1-6-triliun

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 08:31 PM
alexz23
post Sep 18 2021, 08:37 PM

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QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Sep 18 2021, 08:29 PM)
I have a question.

The LCS Gowind 3100 tons Maharajalela, why must built all in Boustead?

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personally I don't know

QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Sep 18 2021, 08:29 PM)

Would it be an advantage if:-

1) 1st and 2nd vessels built in Naval Shipyard  France, with Boustead engineers there. Technologhy and engineering skill transfer to local engineers in actual advanced ship  building  and commissioning of a stealth warship

2) Balance 4  vessels built here.

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yes it is a good idea. but its all acedemic now. we cannot turn back time.


QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Sep 18 2021, 08:29 PM)

Ever considered this option?


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personally I don't know
jwst1313
post Sep 18 2021, 08:41 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 18 2021, 08:31 PM)
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I wouldn't choose any of them.

the latest KCR batch 3 number 5 and 6 which is fully armed cost Rupiah 800 miliar or around 56 million dollars each.

https://money.kompas.com/read/2019/08/02/16...-rp-1-6-triliun
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I take the KCR 60 anytime over the LMS.

Their platform is missile fast attack craft both AAW and ASW similar to the Dutch / Swedish technology.



user posted image
user posted image

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 18 2021, 08:43 PM
jwst1313
post Sep 18 2021, 08:47 PM

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Lets look at Sigma fast attack craft and European fast attack craft below

Sorry double posted kcr 60 m

user posted image
user posted image

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 18 2021, 08:50 PM
jwst1313
post Sep 18 2021, 08:48 PM

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Lets look at sigma fast attack craft made by Dutch Sigma Look Similar?

user posted image

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 18 2021, 08:49 PM

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