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 Insurance Talk V7!, Your one stop Insurance Discussion

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contestchris
post May 10 2025, 08:15 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 10 2025, 07:27 PM)
Jfyi n comparison, My spouse AIA medical insurance
Mar 2024 increased 25%
Mar 2025 increased 35%

The increment letter came in Early May, weeks after the cc deduction.
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BNM said capped at 10%?!? Hmmm....
MUM
post May 10 2025, 09:10 PM

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QUOTE(contestchris @ May 10 2025, 08:15 PM)
BNM said capped at 10%?!? Hmmm....
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This letter dated 12 April.
Yes, ...said was 9.9%. at 3773.
But actual CC deducted on 14 Mar was 4656.50
Mar 2024 was 3434,
Mar 2025 was 4656.50 about 35.6% increase compared to 2024 pricing.

From the FAQ (imaged)
Looks like mine is not under the 80% of policy holders that would be under 10%. Increase annually


This post has been edited by MUM: May 10 2025, 09:20 PM


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contestchris
post May 10 2025, 09:57 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 10 2025, 09:10 PM)
This letter dated 12 April.
Yes, ...said was 9.9%. at 3773.
But actual CC deducted on 14 Mar was 4656.50
Mar 2024 was 3434,
Mar 2025 was 4656.50 about 35.6% increase compared to 2024 pricing.

From the FAQ (imaged)
Looks like mine is not under the 80% of policy holders that would be under 10%. Increase annually
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No something is wrong here. The letter already clearly states that your premium is going to be revised to RM3,773 and there is no age-related increase.

Is there any other rider etc attached to your policy?

Something doesn't add up here and if truly is them shortchanging you (unlikely), I would raise hell.
MUM
post May 10 2025, 10:24 PM

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QUOTE(contestchris @ May 10 2025, 09:57 PM)
No something is wrong here. The letter already clearly states that your premium is going to be revised to RM3,773 and there is no age-related increase.

Is there any other rider etc attached to your policy?

Something doesn't add up here and if truly is them shortchanging you (unlikely), I would raise hell.
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Huumph, ...possible my error, need to dig up my past cc bill to compare. Currently policy is not at hand to check the rider things.

Thks for pointing out this possible scenario.

hafizmamak85
post May 11 2025, 12:38 AM

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There is no such thing as age-related increases in the annual premiums of long term level premium IL policies.

There can be no changes in the annual premium amounts or any of the other policy charges during the on-going term of a long term level premium IL policy.

Only cost of insurance (COI) charges may increase by age band. The level premiums had accounted for these age-banded COI increases at the policy's inception.

It is not lawful or legal for any insurance or takaful operator (ITO) to increase the premium amounts or COI charges, to something other than set at the policy's inception, for long term policies unless the ITO's going concern is at stake.

Malaysians have to truly consider initiating a class action case against these ITOs for not only mis-selling and mis-representing their products but for also breaching their own contract terms.

Just maintain the IL policy's premium payments as per the premium amounts set at the policy's inception.

Ignore notices from the ITO on increases in annual premium amounts.

Notices are not contractually binding. Only contract amendments are binding. And amendments can't be done unilaterally.

Or, we can all remain pliant and subject to the whims n fancies of these larger than life corporates where rules can be written and rewritten on the go to suit their other broader agendas.

QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ Mar 22 2025, 05:42 PM)
To policyholders/consumers out there, always be wary about what you're being sold or have bought as part of an investment-linked insurance plan, but do not despair. There are a lot of contradictions, ambiguities, unclear language between and within the contract terms, sales disclosures and Malaysian laws/BNM policies.

BNM has not played its proper role in protecting your rights and interests and in fact, has acted in concert with the insurance industry in enacting policies or interpreting contract terms in favour of ITOs, to your detriment. And our Malaysian actuaries are, sorry to say, and even they would admit to it, 'koyak' when it comes to consumer rights.

In a sensible world, these contradictions and ambiguities will have to be resolved in your favour. So, it would be wise for you to consider initiating a class action lawsuit against the ITOs & BNM.

Whether you had recently upgraded your medical card as part of a guaranteed issuance offer and found yourself paying additional allocation and other charges or had your policy repriced due to sustainability issues (e.g. due to higher cost of insurance charges as part of medical repricing  or sub-par unit fund investment performance), always be guided by the following:

- The consumer did not price investment-linked policies (including cost of insurance and other charges) or set the minimum amount of annual premium required for given insurance policy coverage. The ITOs bear sole responsibility and accountability in this matter.

- Built into the pricing of annual premiums, cost of insurance and other charges for long term investment-linked policies is the expectation of sufficiency of annual premiums to sustain the policy, including all its charges, until the end of the contract term. The ITOs bear full responsibility and accountability for this expectation and are expected to have appropriately accounted for their profits, expenses and any long term concerns regarding investment returns, medical inflation and other such matters in the policy's pricing.

- The value or legal force of this expectation, to be imputed into the terms of the contact or read as an implied term, is a no-lapse guarantee for as long as the annual premium payments (premium amount based on initial and not subsequent repricing) are maintained.

- Given the above, the ITOs only have the right to reprice premiums and other charges midway through the contract term when faced with going concern risks, not and never to maintain profit margins.
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This post has been edited by hafizmamak85: May 25 2025, 01:46 PM
hafizmamak85
post May 13 2025, 07:08 PM

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KALSIS Widening Home Equity Health Financing Scheme Beyond Cancer To Kidney Disease

Kalsis

The only reason schemes like these may prosper is if above 60 medical insurance remains unaffordable and inaccessible.

And why should above 60 insurance be unaffordable and inaccessible?

Can't we have a medical insurance scheme (even without deductible) where those above 60 pay between RM 4000 and RM 4600 per annum to have most of their major medical needs taken care of???

user posted image

Is 12 million people, from above RM 10k monthly income households, contributing on average RM 3.3k per annum - which comes to around RM 39.3 billion or RM 3.3 billion per million lives - not sufficient for this purpose???

user posted image

Even with 95% of the total amount, or RM 37.5 billion, going towards paying medical claims, would it still not be sufficient to cover for all their advanced medical treatment needs, including immunotherapy and hormone therapy???

Why should families be forced to sell their homes just to finance their medical needs?

Is this a fair price to pay???

All just for immunotherapy and hormone therapy.

What is it that we are afraid of???

Financial outflows???

Ringgit not doing well???


One challenge has been addressing the discomfort among some doctors about recommending the Scheme to patients, given that it involves seniors eventually selling their homes, Teoh said....

“On one hand, doctors know that advanced treatments like immunotherapy or targeted therapy may offer the best clinical outcomes. But on the other, these treatments come with a heavy price — one that many families, especially those with limited savings or insurance, simply cannot bear.”


Why are doctors being put in this position???

Why are they being asked to hawk these really mercenary products???


Why do we need group medical insurance???

Why can't we have a really high powered medical card, like the one above, covering all these advanced treatments, and have employers pay their employees RM 200 - RM 300 extra per month, esp. for those earning RM 5k and above, and lock the extra payments in EPF, to be used solely for their medical needs???


This post has been edited by hafizmamak85: May 14 2025, 07:13 AM
devilmaycry9
post May 13 2025, 10:21 PM

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"On December 4, 2024, Brian Thompson, the CEO of America's largest health insurer, UnitedHealth, was tragically killed, a consequence of deep-seated public fury over the healthcare insurance system, particularly regarding claim denials and the company's significant profits."


Looks like US insurers have bigger problems on their hands.....
LeonTan
post May 15 2025, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 10 2025, 10:24 PM)
Huumph, ...possible my error, need to dig up my past cc bill to compare. Currently policy is not at hand to check the rider things.

Thks for pointing out this possible scenario.
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It seems not right about payment not tele, did you call AIA about this?
MUM
post May 15 2025, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(LeonTan @ May 15 2025, 02:27 PM)
It seems not right about payment not tele, did you call AIA about this?
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Check my last year cc payment amount...it was 4317

My mistake, ...it was not 3434 for year 2024 asI had mentioned.

cms
post May 15 2025, 08:48 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 15 2025, 04:33 PM)
Check my last year cc payment amount...it was 4317

My mistake, ...it was not 3434 for year 2024 asI had mentioned.
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So your premium got reduced in 2025? Wahhh
MUM
post May 15 2025, 08:49 PM

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QUOTE(cms @ May 15 2025, 08:48 PM)
So your premium got reduced in 2025? Wahhh
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As per cc record 2024 was 4317
2025 was 4656
cms
post May 15 2025, 08:57 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 15 2025, 08:49 PM)
As per cc record 2024 was 4317
2025 was 4656
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U dont find it weird they charge u differently from the letter ?
MUM
post May 15 2025, 08:59 PM

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QUOTE(cms @ May 15 2025, 08:57 PM)
U dont find it weird they charge u differently from the letter ?
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Perhaps it was like what contestchris had highlighted earlier? ....... some riders need to add in?

I don't hv the policy on hand to confirm.


contestchris
post May 15 2025, 10:41 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 15 2025, 08:59 PM)
Perhaps it was like what contestchris had highlighted earlier? ....... some riders need to add in?

I don't hv the policy on hand to confirm.
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It's a rider attached to a PA. So of course the total billed will be higher than the charges stipulated in the letter, as that only covers the medical card rider.
contestchris
post May 16 2025, 08:21 AM

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I went ahead and pulled the trigger with Kaotim Legasi, got the 10y RM1mil plan for now. Might ladder it with a 20y RM1mil plan - no rush for now, I am surveying slowly if there are better plans. Looking at PruTerm Premier and Aia Sejuta Makna among others. Hopefully newer plans get launched in the coming months.

I figure the 10y plan will be the least likely impacted by any re-pricing issues, so not much to lose. Annual level premium of RM960, which is comparatively cheaper than the annual increasing premium currently at RM555 with Etiqa for Ezy Secure for just RM500k cover.

In any case, I expect poor persistency given this is Takaful (i.e. the demographics) which should play in well with the sustainability of the pool. Also, life expectancy is only increasing, so further tailwinds there.

This post has been edited by contestchris: May 16 2025, 08:23 AM
MUM
post May 16 2025, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(contestchris @ May 16 2025, 08:21 AM)
I went ahead and pulled the trigger with Kaotim Legasi, got the 10y RM1mil plan for now. Might ladder it with a 20y RM1mil plan - no rush for now, I am surveying slowly if there are better plans. Looking at PruTerm Premier and Aia Sejuta Makna among others. Hopefully newer plans get launched in the coming months.

I figure the 10y plan will be the least likely impacted by any re-pricing issues, so not much to lose. Annual level premium of RM960, which is comparatively cheaper than the annual increasing premium currently at RM555 with Etiqa for Ezy Secure for just RM500k cover.

In any case, I expect poor persistency given this is Takaful (i.e. the demographics) which should play in well with the sustainability of the pool. Also, life expectancy is only increasing, so further tailwinds there.
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For the same plan that you just bought, ...what is the price for age that is 10 yrs older than your current age?
Ex, if now your entry age is 46 and it covers till 55 @ 960 pa, what is the price if entry age is 56 were to buy that same plan now?

Paying 960 for a 1 mil coverage.
That is just 0.1% per year.
I think your "10y RM1mil plan@ 960pa" maybe is for entry age below XX, .... as mortality rate increases after YY age.

From the chart, A rough estimate of the mortality rate of young person from age group 20 -24 is also about 0.1% in 2021.

This post has been edited by MUM: May 16 2025, 10:42 AM


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hafizmamak85
post May 16 2025, 06:21 PM

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QUOTE(contestchris @ May 16 2025, 08:21 AM)
I went ahead and pulled the trigger with Kaotim Legasi, got the 10y RM1mil plan for now. Might ladder it with a 20y RM1mil plan - no rush for now, I am surveying slowly if there are better plans. Looking at PruTerm Premier and Aia Sejuta Makna among others. Hopefully newer plans get launched in the coming months.

In any case, I expect poor persistency given this is Takaful (i.e. the demographics) which should play in well with the sustainability of the pool. Also, life expectancy is only increasing, so further tailwinds there.
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Is this the tragic comedy insurance and takaful operators (ITOs) and BNM are hoping for???

Kaotim Legasi by STMB and the rest of the lapse supported products by the other ITOs are predatory products.

Financially vulnerable consumers are targeted solely for the purpose of subsidizing better-off consumers within their respective product pools.

Lapse supported products do not provide for a surrender value or only a small amount.

Why?

Because the surrender values are required to sustain future benefit payouts of the remaining better-off consumers.

Without financially vulnerable consumers, Kaotim Legasi and the other lapse supported products cannot be sustainable.

It requires the financial exploitation of the vulnerable to be sustainable.

Better-off consumers will buy into the scheme as they know they have the staying power - they aren't going to surrender their policies - and they benefit from reduced premium prices.

Don't blame the individuals exploiting the system.

This is exactly what will happen when we incentivise agents and better-off consumers to be predatory.

The blame lies solely with BNM, STMB and the other predatory ITOs.

In fact, please feel free to query the following individuals within BNM on why they aren't doing their jobs or are failing miserably at it.

Abdul Rasheed Ghaffour (Governor)

Aznan Abdul Aziz (Deputy Governor - Regulation & Supervision)

Cindy Siah Hooi Hoon (Assistant Governor - Supervision, previously Director of Prudential Financial Policy Department)

Fraziali Ismail (Assistant Governor - Regulation)

Adnan Zaylani Mohamad Zahid (Deputy Governor - Financial Markets & Development)

Suhaimi Ali (Assistant Governor - Development)

QUOTE(hafizmamak85 @ May 2 2025, 10:49 AM)
Another way to look at it, the ITO requires for a proportion of the insurance/takaful pool to surrender every year so that the tabarru fund (risk fund) or the non-participating fund does not have a deficit.

If they have less than the expected proportion of policies surrendering, say 5% per annum, they are in trouble and would have to pump money into the tabarru or non-participating fund.

Do you know what a 5% surrender rate per annum means? It means that if an ITO had a million policies at the beginning of a 30 year policy term, they would only have around 600k policies by the 10th year, 463k by the 15th year, 359k by the 20th year, 277k by the 25th year, and 215k by the 30th year.

So, the ITO needs to go out there and find a million policies, out of whom 401k need to leave by the 10th year, 537k by the 15th year, 642k by the 20th year, 723k by the 25th year and 785k by the 30th year.

That is the number of people we are telling to go fly kite. It's just a disaster waiting to happen.

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This post has been edited by hafizmamak85: May 16 2025, 08:02 PM
edwin1002
post May 16 2025, 09:08 PM

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hi, just want ask car insurance premium.

Why i compared 3 companies, 3 prices really different with same insured value.

Allianz premium - RM2,040
Tokio premium - RM1,820
Ambank premium - Rm1,450

whether their service different and claim different?
MUM
post May 16 2025, 09:15 PM

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QUOTE(edwin1002 @ May 16 2025, 09:08 PM)
hi, just want ask car insurance premium.

Why i compared 3 companies, 3 prices really different with same insured value.

Allianz premium - RM2,040
Tokio premium - RM1,820
Ambank premium - Rm1,450

whether their service different and claim different?
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Just asking, did all of them deduct the same NCD %?

This post has been edited by MUM: May 16 2025, 09:17 PM
edwin1002
post May 16 2025, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(MUM @ May 16 2025, 09:15 PM)
Just asking, did all of them deduct the same NCD %?
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Yes, all got deduct NCD

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