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 Interactive Brokers (IBKR), IBKR users, welcome!

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Toku
post May 1 2022, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(TOS @ May 1 2022, 02:51 PM)
No. It's actually 0%drool.gif (The tax-friendly treatment probably explains PNB's large position in this counter. Your friend in SG not so lucky, they still need to pay 10% WHT to Danish tax authorities.)

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/denmark/corpor...thholding-taxes

This is the official Double taxation agreemen between Malaysian and Denmark, confirming that no WHT is withheld: https://phl.hasil.gov.my/pdf/pdfam/DenmarkDTA_06032018.pdf

In other words, you can claim back all the dividends withheld from Danish authorities. biggrin.gif

The Danish authorities are so nice that if the processing time takes longer than 6 months, they will pay you interest on top of the dividends withheld.  laugh.gif

https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244931
*
Thanks for sharing. This is fantastic and can be a viable long term investment. I have many Danish stocks that I like...

Just another noob question. Since we buy ADR so essentially the WHT is at the IBKR side. So the process is to request tax voucher from IBKR then proceed with the Claim procedure?
SUSTOS
post May 1 2022, 04:03 PM

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QUOTE(Toku @ May 1 2022, 03:45 PM)
Thanks for sharing. This is fantastic and can be a viable long term investment. I have many Danish stocks that I like...

Just another noob question. Since we buy ADR so essentially the WHT is at the IBKR side. So the process is to request tax voucher from IBKR then proceed with the Claim procedure?
*
Can share which Danish stocks you like? biggrin.gif Lego is a private company, as much as I like to play Lego bricks. Maersk's Level 1 OTC ADR AMKBY is unsponsored, so can't do anything either. Same for Carlsberg's CABGY OTC L1 ADR too.

As for WHT, try writing to IBKR and inquire them about that. Consider contacting Danish tax authorities too. I wrote to IB to ask for my ADR refund for my Novartis ADR's dividend WHT refund but IB has not replied after 2-3 months, to date. Come to the worst, I will just email my tax specialist in Bern again and ask. laugh.gif

Have a look at the 20-F filing from Novo Nordisk with the SEC. https://www.novonordisk.com/content/dam/nnc...m-20-f-2021.pdf Use your browser's search function to search for "dividend withholding" and have a read from page 22 onwards (Item 10: Additional Information, Section E. Taxation.)

QUOTE
Withholding Tax
Generally, Danish withholding tax is deducted from dividend payments to U.S. Holders at a 27% rate, the rate generally applicable to non-residents in Denmark without regard to eligibility for a reduced treaty rate. Under the current Convention between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Kingdom of Denmark for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income (the ‘Current Convention’), the maximum rate of Danish tax that may be imposed on a dividend paid to a U.S. Holder that does not have a ‘permanent establishment’ (as defined therein) in Denmark is generally 15% and, for certain pension funds, 0% (each, the ‘Treaty Rate’). U.S. Holders eligible for the Treaty Rate may apply to the Danish tax authorities to obtain a refund to the extent that the amount withheld reflects a rate in excess of the Treaty Rate (any such amount, the ‘Excess Withholding Tax’).

Any U.S. Holders of ADRs wishing to apply for a refund of Excess Withholding Tax will have to provide a Danish Claim for Refund of Danish Dividend Tax, a properly completed U.S. Internal Revenue Service Form 6166 and additional documentation including: proof of dividend received; proof of ownership of the ADR and eligibility for the dividend received and proof that the dividend received was reduced by an amount corresponding to the Danish withholding tax. These documentation requirements may be expanded and may be subject to change. Refund claims must be filed within the three-year period following the date in which the dividend was paid in Denmark.

Information on tax reclaims, how they should be filed and the requisite tax forms may be obtained from:

JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A.
c/o Globe Tax Services, Inc.
1 New York Plaza, 34th Floor
New York, New York 10004 USA
Phone: +1 (212) 747 9100

U.S. Holders should consult their tax advisers regarding dividend withholding tax refunds.


This post has been edited by TOS: May 1 2022, 09:53 PM
Toku
post May 2 2022, 08:56 AM

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QUOTE(TOS @ May 1 2022, 04:03 PM)
Can share which Danish stocks you like? biggrin.gif Lego is a private company, as much as I like to play Lego bricks. Maersk's Level 1 OTC ADR AMKBY is unsponsored, so can't do anything either. Same for Carlsberg's CABGY OTC L1 ADR too. 

As for WHT, try writing to IBKR and inquire them about that. Consider contacting Danish tax authorities too.  I wrote to IB to ask for my ADR refund for my Novartis ADR's dividend WHT refund but IB has not replied after 2-3 months, to date. Come to the worst, I will just email my tax specialist in Bern again and ask. laugh.gif

Have a look at the 20-F filing from Novo Nordisk with the SEC. https://www.novonordisk.com/content/dam/nnc...m-20-f-2021.pdf Use your browser's search function to search for "dividend withholding" and have a read from page 22 onwards (Item 10: Additional Information, Section E. Taxation.)
*
Yes, Carlsberg and Maersk is on my watchlist. I checked level 1 OTC ADR means they are pink sheets, illiquid and not undergo full registration by SEC. And the accounting may not meets SEC requirement. There is no mentioning any difference in WHT treatment. I guess we can also claim the WHT refund just like a level 3 ADR right?

As for the IBKR tax voucher thing, I think IBKR may not be very supportive to the request of this type of administrative service involving a staff to carry out the manual paperwork. Hence this may not be the best way to go for long term.

Still the best for long term is to go for ADR like UL that is straightforward and give you dividend with no WHT so no need to run the errand to tax department for the claim...
SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 10:42 AM

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QUOTE(Toku @ May 2 2022, 08:56 AM)
Yes, Carlsberg and Maersk is on my watchlist. I checked level 1 OTC ADR means they are pink sheets, illiquid and not undergo full registration by SEC. And the accounting may not meets SEC requirement. There is no mentioning any difference in WHT treatment. I guess we can also claim the WHT refund just like a level 3 ADR right?

As for the IBKR tax voucher thing, I think IBKR may not be very supportive to the request of this type of administrative service involving a staff to carry out the manual paperwork. Hence this may not be the best way to go for long term.

Still the best for long term is to go for ADR like UL that is straightforward and give you dividend with no WHT so no need to run the errand to tax department for the claim...
*
For those ADRs, being Level 1 isn't the main issue for tax. The unlisted nature only concerns with liquidity and governance. The main issue is the unsponsored nature. If the ADR is not sponsored, the company has no vested interest to handle all these tax-related issues since it is the banks who offer them without the supervision from the parent company (you will find no mention of LVMUY on LVMH's official website, no mention of AMKBY on A/P Moller Maersk's official website etc.). And you bear significant counterparty risk with the bank holding these securities on your behalf without the company's knowledge/official involvement. For tax-related issues, you can only deal with the bank by inquiring them, and not the company. You may contact the tax authorities though. There is no guarantee that the refund will be the same as a Level 2/3 ADR since tax refunds depend on the tax domicile of the company. It could be that you need to contact the ADR bank to handle it for you, or you go straight to the authorities and seek refund from them.

Yes, if you want to avoid hassles just stick to counters whose tax-domiciled country has no WHT in first place, rather than having to go through the torture to reclaim it back later.

But honestly, I enjoy the process of dealing with these issues though. Learning to communicate with foreign tax authorities and understand foreign tax laws are not something everyone enjoy, but the payoff can be huge if you reinvest the proceeds from the refunds. This is because DTA agreements don't change very often. So one-time knowledge can be applied for decades to come. The opportunity cost is considerably higher if companies have increasing dividend payouts over the years.

This post has been edited by TOS: May 2 2022, 10:55 AM
Toku
post May 2 2022, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(TOS @ May 2 2022, 10:42 AM)
For those ADRs, being Level 1 isn't the main issue for tax. The unlisted nature only concerns with liquidity and governance. The main issue is the unsponsored nature. If the ADR is not sponsored, the company has no vested interest to handle all these tax-related issues since it is the banks who offer them without the supervision from the parent company (you will find no mention of LVMUY on LVMH's official website, no mention of AMKBY on A/P Moller Maersk's official website etc.). And you bear significant counterparty risk with the bank holding these securities on your behalf without the company's knowledge/official involvement. For tax-related issues, you can only deal with the bank by inquiring them, and not the company. You may contact the tax authorities though. There is no guarantee that the refund will be the same as a Level 2/3 ADR since tax refunds depend on the tax domicile of the company. It could be that you need to contact the ADR bank to handle it for you, or you go straight to the authorities and seek refund from them.     

Yes, if you want to avoid hassles just stick to counters whose tax-domiciled country has no WHT in first place, rather than having to go through the torture to reclaim it back later.

But honestly, I enjoy the process of dealing with these issues though. Learning to communicate with foreign tax authorities and understand foreign tax laws are not something everyone enjoy, but the payoff can be huge if you reinvest the proceeds from the refunds. This is because DTA agreements don't change very often. So one-time knowledge can be applied for decades to come. The opportunity cost is considerably higher if companies have increasing dividend payouts over the years.
*
It seems Carlsberg and Maersk stock are available on Frankfurt stock exchange. Not sure it is a Europe depository stock of ADR equivalent.
SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(Toku @ May 2 2022, 03:14 PM)
It seems Carlsberg and Maersk stock are available on Frankfurt stock exchange. Not sure it is a Europe depository stock of ADR equivalent.
*
Thanks for informing. Upon some further study, I found 119 entries with the exact same ISIN number for Maersk's B shares with my Reuters Eikon. It seems like you can buy these stocks on multiple exchanges.

The annual report of of both Carlsberg and Maersk, however, do not mention so many exchange venues. They only refer to the parent organization's listing venue, i.e. Copenhagen.

My guess is while Chi-X and BATS Europe may offer some liquidity, this may not be the case for say, Vienna Borse. Can ask dwRK for confirmation.

*Unzip to get the Excel file.

This post has been edited by TOS: May 2 2022, 03:45 PM


Attached File(s)
Attached File  Search_1651477093422.zip ( 9.37k ) Number of downloads: 1
john123x
post May 2 2022, 04:14 PM

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guys, i got a enquiry.

can a CASH account sell cash covered put option?
can a CASH account sell covered call option?

the reason is because i got a reply from interactive brokers. i did informed that i need option trading capabilities.


here is an quote from the email that i received
QUOTE
Please advise if you would like to continue with opening a Cash account with Stocks trading capabilities.


the reason i ask here because:
1. they didnt state anything about options
2. i am worried about their restriction on selling options (whether cash account can sell cash covered put option and sell covered call option?)
3. their reply is slow
dwRK
post May 2 2022, 04:18 PM

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QUOTE(Toku @ May 2 2022, 03:14 PM)
It seems Carlsberg and Maersk stock are available on Frankfurt stock exchange. Not sure it is a Europe depository stock of ADR equivalent.
*
ADR is an american thing...

QUOTE(TOS @ May 2 2022, 03:44 PM)
Thanks for informing. Upon some further study, I found 119 entries with the exact same ISIN number for Maersk's B shares with my Reuters Eikon. It seems like you can buy these stocks on multiple exchanges.

The annual report of of both Carlsberg and Maersk, however, do not mention so many exchange venues. They only refer to the parent organization's listing venue, i.e. Copenhagen.

My guess is while Chi-X and BATS Europe may offer some liquidity, this may not be the case for say, Vienna Borse. Can ask dwRK for confirmation. 

*Unzip to get the Excel file.
*
outside of home exchange having the best liquidity, the others you'll have to look up and rank it yourself afaik... usually the major exchanges will have more, like lse, amsterdam/euronext, frankfurt/xetra, etc.


dwRK
post May 2 2022, 04:25 PM

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QUOTE(TOS @ Apr 30 2022, 10:26 AM)
Sorry, my apologies. Though you can buy NOVO-B on Nasdaq Copenhagen, you can't do so via IB. IB just don't provide service for Denmark onshore securities. laugh.gif

Level 3 ADR should be fine. It's officially listed on an exchange, so there should be liquidity over a pure OTC level 1 unlisted ADR.

If in doubt, have a look at the premium-discount chart provided by Deutsche Bank here: https://www.adr.db.com/drwebrebrand/dr-univ...m-discount-data

NVO on NYSE should trade closely with its NOVO-B parent share back in Copanhagen. The chart should provide you some comfort.

Last thing to note is: Novo-Nordisk, like Roche, has a dual-class share structure where the founder owns 70-80% of voting rights while the rest of us can only have the remaining 20-30% voting powers despite we (not the founding family) provide 70-80% of the share capital, and the founding family only provide 20-30% of the capital. So there is corporate governance risk to bear.

You can read it here: https://www.novonordisk.com/investors/share...-structure.html
*
you should be able to buy novob at other eu exchanges... try search using isin...

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/market-...sk-a-s/overview


This post has been edited by dwRK: May 2 2022, 04:28 PM
SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ May 2 2022, 04:25 PM)
you should be able to buy novob at other eu exchanges... try search using isin...

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/market-...sk-a-s/overview
*
Indeed, ya that is what I found too in the Excel file earlier for Maersk. Seems like the same shares can be traded in multiple European exchanges. But it seems "unofficial business" for the companies like Novo, which never mention any other exchanges apart from the Copenhagen exchange.
SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 05:15 PM

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FT last weekend (3004-010522): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hUIouwOxxN...iew?usp=sharing

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


FT today (020522): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lu-Ww9s5iM...iew?usp=sharing

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «





dwRK
post May 2 2022, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(TOS @ May 2 2022, 04:37 PM)
Indeed, ya that is what I found too in the Excel file earlier for Maersk. Seems like the same shares can be traded in multiple European exchanges. But it seems "unofficial business" for the companies like Novo, which never mention any other exchanges apart from the Copenhagen exchange.
*
most company will only show a major exchange/prices as convenience to their investors... you just unfamiliar with EU markets...
SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 09:24 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ May 2 2022, 09:21 PM)
most company will only show a major exchange/prices as convenience to their investors... you just unfamiliar with EU markets...
*
I see. So, is there a pan-European exchange agreement or something? I have not heard of any. Xetra just seems unrelated to Nasdaq OMX. I am not aware of any cross-exchange "agreement" between the 2.

Also, no mention of possible alternative exchange avenues are mentioned in Carlsberg and Maersk's official annual report.
dwRK
post May 2 2022, 10:39 PM

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QUOTE(TOS @ May 2 2022, 09:24 PM)
I see. So, is there a pan-European exchange agreement or something? I have not heard of any. Xetra just seems unrelated to Nasdaq OMX. I am not aware of any cross-exchange "agreement" between the 2.

Also, no mention of possible alternative exchange avenues are mentioned in Carlsberg and Maersk's official annual report.
*
dunno how/when eu started more cross listing and integration...

anyways you search Carlsberg isin DK0010181676 you'll find it also in lse, six, others...
dwRK
post May 2 2022, 11:21 PM

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TOS

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SUSTOS
post May 2 2022, 11:47 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ May 2 2022, 11:21 PM)
TOS

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
Just to ping Toku too.

Sorry guys, I made a mistake. You can trade Danish stocks directly on Copenhagen. Initially I looked for the list of exchanges and Denmark is not on the list, so I jumped to the conclusion that trading via IB was not possible. But now... see below:

https://contract.ibkr.info/v3.10/index.php?...=&description=S

Just type in "Maersk" and this result will appear. (In the future, can search for any other counters available on IB from the same link.)

https://contract.ibkr.info/v3.10/index.php?...&showEntities=Y

As you can see from the list, CPH is listed as one of the possible exchanges. Others electronic ones like BATS Europe, CHI-X, Torquiese etc. are listed too.

#######################################

The only thing I don't know is how to enable the trading permission since Denmark is not listed as one of the countries in the list here: https://www.interactivebrokers.com.hk/en/in...f=1562&p=europe

However, looking closely at the exchange for each country, some of them like BATS and CHI-X are repeated in multiple countries, so what I suspect is since these are pan-Europeans low-cost electronic exchanges, you can find people trading MAERSK or Carlsberg on them too. I have tried enabling trading permissions for all European stocks and see if buying Maersk again is possible. Will update tomorrow after the changes take effect.

#####################################

In another news, I have contacted Swiss and Danish tax authorities on reclaiming dividends tax withheld from these 2 authorities for their countries' ADRs, e.g. dividends from Novartis's ADR and Novo Nordisk's ADR. Will update here later when replies are received from them.

This post has been edited by TOS: May 2 2022, 11:48 PM
SUSTOS
post May 3 2022, 10:05 AM

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Yesterday afternoon you probably realized your European counters suddenly tumble in the morning session just to recover within minutes.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


We now know the culprit.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/flash-crash-hi...share_permalink

This post has been edited by TOS: May 3 2022, 10:31 AM
potatobanana
post May 3 2022, 11:22 AM

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Paging c64 in case he/she haven't found this thread yet

Thanks for sharing in /k/ btw
c64
post May 3 2022, 11:35 AM

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QUOTE(potatobanana @ May 3 2022, 11:22 AM)
Paging c64 in case he/she haven't found this thread yet

Thanks for sharing in /k/ btw
*
Oh! Thanks! Must bookmark this tered.
c64
post May 3 2022, 11:35 AM

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-duplicated-

This post has been edited by c64: May 3 2022, 11:35 AM

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