Personally, while I trust Stashaway, I am not sure I would trust 100% of my portfolio on the platform, and I am reluctant to recommend the idea of having all their investment in Stashaway on different index = diversified. But on pure roboadvisor allocation, I don't see a reason to split it, can be all SA.

If you don't mind, your two cents on withdrawal reason for Wahed? For me, I just think Wahed's portfolio is too rigid and stale, and all the growth has fully dried up for late joiners. SA's choice of investment are more inline with what I wish to have in general.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 12:43 PM

Yeap... even my dad knows about Stashaway, he was going to ask me if I could help him get into Stashaway when I told him about it.

Great user experience in-app definitely boost confidence too.

Slightly disagree on the transparent fee structure. I'm willing to change my opinion when they provide a fee calculator. As it is, its very misleading - I won't be surprised if your everyday person would thought that "oh if I have RM1m invested the fees are RM3000 a year" reading their fee's page.

Yeap, DIY etf, going to minimize fees while buying the haystack...

Stashaway's fees are amazing for what they provide, but it's still too high for my taste. (I want <0.6% flat TER including underlying etf cost)

My personal plan is to have less than 50k on SA and if things goes well, I'd likely just use SA for short to medium term cash management.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 02:02 PM

Just for your reference, my route for DIY cost about ~RM25~RM35 max per entry, I'll likely able to deposit maximum twice a year given my current financials, so RM50-RM70 a year. Rebalancing cheap because I am going for a simple 2 fund portfolio, and I try to rebalance by depositing without selling. Time wise, research and setting up is maybe 2 days, then I suspect its likely less than half a day a year to keep it running?

That means at RM5000-7000 under Stashaway's management, I hit the breakeven point for annual cost. Any extra money I invest into SA from there onwards cost me more than DIY route. Hence why I really hope SA can bring fees down as soon as possible.

Correction welcomed if my maths are wrong!

Tradestation Global - Can refer/discuss in this thread https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4744515/+1120 if needed, since this is SA thread, just in case.

Appreciate your input! Those are all valid concerns that I've considered and evaluated. I am open for flaws in my logic, please do let me know if I missed something, because I am genuinely worried that I might be penny wise pound foolish - because if I invested purely on Reward-to-Risk ratio, I'd be buying some really terrible assets and absolutely bleed away my opportunity cost.


I'm buying into an All World Index, bogleheads style. - so my worst case scenario is I'll be average. The same can be said that I cannot be sure that SAMY perform better than DIY. - and all things being equal, the one with less cost makes me more - the same reason why I am on SA, not Unit Trusts.


And I really do believe in that - hence depending on performance, I might still happily have 30% of my total investment be on SA if they can keep up a good performance.


This is VERY valid, but I've found that SAMY is far more easier to sell for me. I am one finger-print login and a couple taps away from withdrawing my entire portfolio - it scares me how easy it is, and I would be lying if I wasn't tempted last couple of weeks. In this case, DIY is harder to impulse sell.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 05:41 PM

Nonono, I am very new to this, every single bit of info and discussion and all viewpoints I am very, very happy to receive, thank you!


Haha, I am damn worried about this too! But ultimately, I am not a speculator (I don't gamble, gacha, or otherwise speculated for my past 20 or so years.) and are very risk averse in general. If my FIRE fails because I had no discipline, that's completely my fault. (Hopefully not)


This is easily my biggest concern right now and a big reason why I see myself staying with SA for a while more - but as it is, and until there is more data to prove otherwise, ERAA sounds no different than "Smart Beta" to me - and I am worried that it'd be just average in 30 years.... then I would have just paid more fees for less.


Absolutely agreed - I've tried to do some backtesting myself but I can't say I am confident in my numbers skill - I just referred to homework someone else done instead, since there is no shortage of bogleheads.

I'm currently looking at a combination of VWRA+AGGU - the index is FTSE All World Index (VWRA is rather new, but VWRD, its distributing version has been around longer) for VWRA and The Bloomberg Barclays Global Aggregate Bond Index for AGGU - AGGU's been long enough for good data.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 05:53 PM

It'd be a while before I can DCA RM7.5k per month For now I just DCA consistently into SA.



Strong agree, which is why I am only looking for alternative for a few years down the road.



Strong agree too, not gonna touch that... do you mind DMing me some good reading material for those? Since you said you didn't want to name examples.


I was thinking I can mimic SA's style of volatility control in the long run by anchoring with 20% total world bond and maybe some local gold trust, maybe? (this is on top of having a good chunk (20-35%?) in SA?)

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the valuable input, between you and Hon Siong's advice I've got a better idea on how to approach my plan now.

I think Forex risk and DCA worries are definitely very valid and is one of the biggest hurdle I have at the moment. My previous plan was to treat it as a massive lump-sum once in a while most of my investment is still weekly fixed amount DCA into SA, hence the twice a year estimate.

If I want to fully move over there I'd likely have to able to deposit monthly at the minimum, I'll probably have to math out the real cost for that approach too if I decided to take that route.

As for the SC concern, I am not naive enough to believe SC's primary goal is to protect my best interest. I'd believe PIDM at best and even them I have doubts. I trust FINRA & ASIC way more than SC.


All that said, I am still young and I am still looking into taking some risk I can stomach, around the level where if I mess up, I retire a year late, if I win, I shave 1.5-2 year off. 36% portfolio seems to hit that sweet spot perfectly for me and I'm likely going to stay with it for quite a while still, hahaha.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 16 2021, 10:01 PM

My total fees needed for 1 transaction, for conversion + brokerage fees is approx RM25. Lets say I really hand itchy and I start doing 1k DCA monthly with this route. ( 2.5% fee),
RM12k investment, annual fees is RM300?

Withdrawal is about 0.6% or so, lets say I withdraw 3k every month just for an example, so every month cost RM18 + ~RM8 withdrawal fee, lets call it RM25 too. RM300 on withdrawal.

(In a real scenario, its unlikely that I will still be depositing when I start withdrawing - and by the time I start withdrawing, there should be new fintech fee improvements)

So total expense on napkin math is RM600 a year for me. And this is being really generous because of high frequency very low volume DCA to a foreign brokerage.

----

Stashaway fees: 0.2% to 0.8% (I'm dropping ETF fees since its same/lower on DIY, and conversion fee because its one time and I'm lazy)

At RM50,000 invested, your annual fees are (50000*0.8%) = RM400
At RM100,000 invested, your annual fees are (50000*0.8%)+(50000*0.7%) = RM750
At RM250,000 invested, your annual fees are (50000*0.8%)+(50000*0.7%)+(150000*0.6%) = RM1650
And if you treat SA like your EPF, to make 1mil/2mil then eat off it - it'd go up to RM4900 @ 1mil, RM6900 @ 2mil.

And these numbers are compounding VS flat comparing to DIY.

Most FIRE calculators will suggest that, at 4% withdrawal per year, on a 50/50 portfolio, on a 30 year horizon, that 1% means a drop of about 30% (100%->70%) success rate of the portfolio, if I remember correctly, and a drop of about 55% (100% -> 45%) success rate if it cost another 1%.

So while these number doesn't matter right now, if I stay invested for the next 3 decade, these numbers start to hurt a little, and will hurt more and more and more and it'll only get worst. So I hope you can see why I am tempted to research for a DIY solution. Earnings are not guaranteed, but fees are set in stone.

On the flip side, if SA is returning 20% and DIY is returning 10% then all of these goes out the window, which is a valid point that zstan has brought up.

Please correct if any of my numbers are off! Very napkin math that I typed out during my tea break.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 17 2021, 10:04 AM

IMO, might as well set up Direct Debit at that point. For my little daily DCA meme, I just did it all through direct debit, no logging into bank needed. Just tap tap tap on SA.

Of course, the downside is your money wont be gone until its invested, so you need to do some mental notes on the real minimum balance of your bank.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 17 2021, 09:36 AM

Not possible - I am keeping the fees low by using a two fund portfolio, so minimum brokerage frees. Rebalancing is done by deposit allocation.

My 36% Stashaway portfolio is running at about 8 different ETF. The transaction cost of buying them alone would completely destroy me. These numbers are only available to Stashaway because they have access to big boys cost, and also because they are lumping all customer's transaction into one in the background.

If you mimic SA with DIY, the only one happy is Broker.

Yeap - that or 100k USD balance for no monthly fee, or about 150k or more if want to account for volatility. Brokerage charges still apply though. So its still not viable.

Using more optimistic numbers it'd likely cut down my annual cost down to RM150~300 or 1500~3000 per decade, the nitty gritty details really have to be mathed out - but your logic is sound!

Rebalancing difficulties is a valid concern, I planned to solved it by keeping it simple (2 fund) and the ratio can be easily 70-30 to 80-20, which is not hard to keep with just depositing. As my balance exceeds RM500k, I would have access to fractional shares too.

Yeap, I came to similar conclusion with you and decided to go with rojak too.

Perhaps a very high SA allocation in my first 10 year, then as I slowly want to reduce my risk, move over to DIY more and more until 100% DIY. In the end, its all dependent on SA and DIY's medium term performance, and reevaluate from there.

The end game would likely having more than Rm500k and move to Interactive Brokers directly, which will open up to some truly magical fees and opportunities.

IMO, A rojak between 2 fund DIY + Robo - and a 5% to "have fun", to satisfy my urge to speculate so I won't touch the real investments, sounds good. (Like crypto and stock picking)

There needs to be a balance between Reward-to-Risk ratio and lower/higher isn't always better - so a rojak with self defined ratio would be the best, and no matter what happens - at least you are investing, and it beats losing it all gambling.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 17 2021, 11:36 AM

Simple visualization of lee82gx's concept "just make more even after fees" (2.5% fixed deposit fee monthly vs 1% p.a.; 8% vs 8% return VS 8% vs 14% return) :


This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 17 2021, 11:43 AM

Quoting Stashaway FAQ:
"The annual management fee is calculated as a percentage of the total assets under management, ranging from 0.2% - 0.8%, and is charged monthly on a pro-rata basis. i.e if you invested on the 15th of a particular month, we will not charge you for the first 15 days."

You can likely read it as: Every month, they charge bill you 0.2-0.8% of your total invested amount. Functionally, this works out to 0.2-0.8% P.A. You don't lose or gain fee advantage by interval or frequency.

Correct me if I am wrong.

"Eh I no money also, I show my MBB balance"

Then inside have RM10.53 only, no need borrow for stupid reason

And so the queue to call jul daddy gets longer

Can refer to discussion following this post - between #12585 until #12592-ish
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=100221042

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 19 2021, 11:18 AM

The 4-5 first gen grandpa still here with us

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 19 2021, 12:17 PM

Slightly out of topic question, for FSM Managed Portfolio, do you pay 0.5% annual fee for everything, or 0.5% annual fee on top of whatever 1.0~1.5% annual fee per fund under portfolio?

So sales charge + 0.5% P.A.? Their advertised return is after deduction of all fees? I am surprised if more people are not subscribing if can have access to 6+ fund with only 0.5% annual fees, that's cheaper than SA(?)*.



Interesting.

This post has been edited by Hoshiyuu: Mar 19 2021, 03:11 PM