I think to be fair, the Judah prophet did not know he lied and could have checked with God first rather than just agree just like that. As to why the older wasn't punished, I don't know.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 29 2019, 02:00 PM

Maybe I add a bit more.

Both men were used by God, but both had a tragic ending. It is a lesson we must draw from spiritually.

1) The old prophet was a prophet who was once used by God; however, God could not use him any longer. In our experience, some spiritual condition of many believers are the same as their condition let say, ten years ago. They have not made any spiritual progress before the Lord. They speak what they do not understand. Even as they are speaking, they do not understand what they are saying.

2) The old prophet did not see any sin in the worship at Bethel. In Bethel, Jeroboam sacrificed to the calves he made, appointed priests of the lowest people, who were not of the sons of Levi, made offerings upon the altar, and burned incense on the days and months that he had devised of his own heart (1 Kings 12:28-33). All these things offended the Lord. Jeroboam was afraid that the people would offer sacrifices in Jerusalem. Therefore, he set up another place of worship outside Jerusalem. This causes a division among God's people. This proves that something was wrong with him [the old prophet] for not saying anything as he should be as prophet.

3) But what was tragic was not just the condition of the old prophet but the damage the man of God suffered under the old prophet! The man of God disobeyed the Lord's charge because of the word of the old prophet. Once a servant of the Lord has received a clear commandment from the Lord, he should never listen to an old prophet whose word does not match the Lord's charge.

This is same, for example, in Paul's charge to the Galatian believers was along the same principle. "If even we or an angel out of heaven should announce to you a gospel beyond that which we have announced to you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8). The gospel which Paul preached was not according to man but according to the revelation of Jesus Christ (vv. 11-12). But there was another group of people who tried to change the gospel of Christ.

4) When they were sitting together at the feast, the word of the Lord came to the old prophet. Does this mean that he had become spiritual again? No. God was dealing with the man of God who had disobeyed His word. He no longer had any demand on the old prophet; God already had put him aside..

Today, we may suffer spiritual death [instead of the physical death in the Old Testament] in our serving God but that is because God still cares and has demands on us. If nothing happens, it is already Very SERIOUS. God has put us aside for a while.

After the man of God was killed by the lion, the old prophet buried him in his own grave and charged his sons to bury him next to the man of God when he died. The old prophet believed that the word which the Lord charged the man of God to speak against the altar in Bethel and against all the houses of the high places which were in the cities of Samaria would surely come to pass. Yet he himself simply waited to die there! What a contradiction ... he is really old

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 29 2019, 08:45 PM

Thanks for your very clear explanation, Pehkay.

But do you know why the younger prophet was put to death although he wasn't really being disobedient? You see, he rejected hospitality from Jeroboam but not from the older prophet because the older prophet lied to him that the angel asked the older prophet to bring him back home and serve him bread and water.

1) That old prophet was indeed a genuine prophet, there's no reason not to believe in him.
2) It's not something uncommon for God to use someone else to deliver His speech

It's just like your father asks you not to drink or eat anything in the fridge, but you are told by your brother later that your father asks him to give you food and drink from the fridge. Knowing that your brother is a trustworthy person and your father has been using your brother to pass on his messages, you cannot be guilty for believing him, no?

I know God is just and therefore, I still feel OK for that younger prophet to be punished although I think he wasn't really at fault. But that older prophet didn't get punished, I feel a bit

No offense.

You know what, I have been wondering if having doubtful mind is the reason why I don't get to experience something very real from God unlike other fellow Christians in church.

Well said

Try something else?

This post has been edited by rage-quit: Jan 30 2019, 10:18 AM

A Rebuke

Ephesians 5:4 (NIV) - Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

Morning Fellow believers. Today I'm going to share something where I will probably step on someone's toes. But this has been kept (for sometime) in my heart and I want to reach out to all who considers themselves as Christians in this forum. This is not only for other but also for myself.

Ephesians 5:1 tells us to be imitators of God, in other parts of the Bible, we have been instructed to be Christ Like. What does it mean to be imitators of God or to be Christ like? It means you follow Christ and you represent God before others.

Because God is holy, likewise, let us keep vulgarity and obscenity out of our mouth. If we've been careless with the way we talk, allowing even F words to come out or for example sprouting murderous threats in anger, we need to know nobody in Heaven lives like that. And that is not the way to live as God's people.

Do not forget you have been cleansed with divine blood and the value of that blood cannot be bought with all the money or wealth combined in this world.

I leave this to your thoughts.

God Bless.

Spot on.

What is making you doubt?

I feel that there is a need to share something very important that will contribute to your Christian lives in defending your faith in the authenticity of New Testament scripture.

It is my hope that you will be equipped to answer sceptics and address misconceptions and errors that anyone may have regarding the scriptures, and have the confidence that what you hold in your hand is the very word of God.

I do not claim to be a scholar, but I've bought books to learn about biblical textual criticism and how we got our New Testament today. Paleography (the study of ancient writings) and textual criticism (the reconstruction of original texts) are very specialised and involved fields, but we need to understand the basics of them to understand how our scripture came to being.

How did we get our New Testament?
- Straight off the bat, we have to recognise that we do not have the original copies of the scripture (Autographs).
- We have (by latest count) 5800+ of Greek manuscripts which are copies of the originals. (fragments and codices)
- The earliest manuscript (papyrus 52) which contain parts of John's gospel dates back to 110-125 CE.

Are there errors in the manuscript copies?
- Because the manuscripts are copied by hand by scribes (copyists), and by the way of transmission over generations of Christians all over the mediterranean world, there exist variants in the readings in all the manuscripts.

- Inevitably, there are also slips of pen, different spellings of words, different word orders and also we recognise there were well meaning scribes trying to "correct" what they thought were errors in the manuscripts in their hands.

- But with the collection of the 5800+ manuscripts, we can compare, analyse and reconstruct what the original authograph actually said. This is the field of Textual Criticism.

- We are now certain that we have 99.95% of the original inspired texts of the New Testament.

Continued..

KJV-Only-ism

There is a minority of Christians who think that God preserved His word in the KJV bible. Therefore they think that all other translation of the English bibles are corrupt.

- Scholars have classified the 5800 manuscripts into a few text type families.

- For the sake of brevity we will only consider 2 of them in this discussion, they are the Alexandrian text type and the Byzantine text type (also called the Majority texts)

- While the Byzantine text type manuscripts form the majority of the Greek manuscripts, the earliest copy that has Byzantine influence we have is from the 5th century

- No early church fathers (ante-nicene) demonstrated that they knew about the Byzantine manuscripts.

- Byzantine text type copies are also found to have paraphrases and conflation readings.

- The KJV translation was based on the Textus Receptus critical text, which was compiled by Erasmus in the 16th century who only had 6 predominantly Byzantine Greek manuscripts available to him

- On the other hand, the earliest papyri manuscripts (the P52 and P75 being in 2nd century, within decades of the apostle John's writing Revelations) are Alexandrian in nature.

- The most reliable manuscripts that contain the whole bible (the codex vaticanus and sinaiticus, 350AD) is almost identical to the earliest papyri, and Alexandrian in nature. They were copied by professional scribes.

- We know that Alexandria was a place that appreciated literature, the early church fathers also set up scriptoriums to produce the scriptures. (Origen)

- Scholars of the past 300 years (Tischendorf, Wescott and Hort, Nestle- Aland, Bruce Metzger) and their work in the field produced the critical Greek texts called the Novum Testamentum Graece.

- The english bible we have today (NASB, ESV etc) were translated from the critical Greek texts.

- There is simply no empirical data to suggest that the KJV is purer than the rest of the english bibles.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jan 31 2019, 11:52 AM

One of the reason why Faith is stunted.

Galatians 3:12 (NIV) - The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

Good Day Fellow Believers. Today I want to share something that will help you understand why your faith seems to be stuck or isn't where it's suppose to be.

Main scripture text as above tells us The Law (God's Law) is not based on faith. That is so important which many people may have missed it. What this means is that if you are going to rely on your performance, whether you have adhering/obeying enough to God's law, your faith will diminish. Do you hear what I've just said? It will diminish. That is what it means The Law is not based on Faith, on the contrary. (Key word emphasize "Contrary") Contrary here means; the Law is anti Faith.

Why?

In Galatians 3:10 helps us to understand, Christians who rely on God's Law subject himself to bondage, under a curse. How come? Because in Galatians 3:11, it says very clearly, no matter how good you are in obeying God's law it can NEVER and will NEVER EVER and CANNOT justify you. What is worse is that if you subject yourself under God's Law you are obligated to go all the way 100%, there is no 1% leniency, meaning no chance is given.

Yet many Christians today try to mix amalgamate both God's Law and yet want to be under God's Grace. Bible tells us clearly, you cannot be under both, you can only have one. That is what it means in the main text of today's devotion; "The person who does these things will live by them". You have to live by them and your justification will be based by how good you obey God. You cannot have both works and grace together.

If only you knew no human being can be perfect and could properly obey God's law then you will begin to understand why the Law can be a curse.

The new covenant is all about, righteousness by "Faith". To have Faith growing, you need to look away from the Law and Look to the person of Jesus Christ. How do you do that in practicality? Believe, there is nothing for you to perform or try to complete. It'a all given to you by Grace.

I pray the Holy Spirit gives you insight into this.

God Bless.

Just a few quick notes. I know someone is going to remove this post.
Well. Do you know why the Alexandrian text are the earliest. Maybe because no one uses them. Take Nokia vs Iphone for example. I am pretty sure 100 years from now. People might find a older Nokia phone as compared to say an iPhone. Does that mean the Nokia phone is a better phone compared to the iphone just because it is older? The thing is. People stop using Nokia phone and that is why Historian would probably dig out a Nokia phone that is old in age. Many people uses the iphone and so it is very likely that Historian would probably dig out an iphone that is say not that old. But then it is insanity to conclude that the Nokia phone is better then the iphone just because the Nokia phone is older.

Never knew that "literature" should be associated with Truth. I guess the Bible is just some kind of Shapesphere to you right?

Have you even research the background of those "scholars"

And that is why they are unreliable and corrupted

Defined empirical data.

I have prove that the so called "church father" used verses that were omitted from the Alexandrian text type.

That's the thing. You do not have understanding and you will not have this understanding until the day you die. You will be going to the same place as those text critics. And I am not attacking you. I am "complimenting" you.

Of course no "church father" is going to know about the Byzantine text because it was a non issue at that time. It is just like expecting people before world war 2 to know about world war 2.

As for "conflation" and paraphrasing. Well. I guess you are talking about uniform translation then. What does uniform translation got to do with the Byzantine text. See. You do not even know what you are talking about. Maybe I will suggest that you study further before you write so that you do not make yourself foolish. Any intelligent person would tell you that there is no way that uniform translation will work. But then you are not the most intelligent person in the world. For example. The word post. Post can mean later. Post can mean posting a letter. Translating post to mean letter all the time is obviously wrong. Depending on the context post can mean a posting a letter and post can mean later. See. Just like you accuse me of harassing you just because I sent you a single message. You will find all means to undermine the King James Version.

In fact. shouldn't the words codex VATICANUS give you a clue? That is why I think most people deserve it.

This reply is not meant for you btw. Because I know you have major comprehension issues. And you will be going to the same place as those textual critics. It's meant for the others though. So you do not need to reply to this.

BTW. Do you know you have sinned by calling those people church father? I thought the Bible says specifically to call no one father? Guess the Bible is not your authority huh. That's the thing. You will never learn. I thought in PM, I told you about this. Better not say further. Otherwise someone is going to say I am "attacking" him.

Do you even understand why the significance of MAJORITY text. Do you understand why having the majority manuscripts means it is reliable. And you claim you studied this issue for months. I told you that I am not going to be convinced in PM right.


This post has been edited by sylar111: Jan 31 2019, 03:19 PM

Do you even read what you wrote. I mean seriously. How would what you wrote actually " contribute to your Christian lives in defending your faith in the authenticity of New Testament scripture". I mean seriously. Even from a secular stand, your post cannnot even stand the test of college. You are really a very confuse person. In fact, anyone reading your post would probably stay far away from Christianity. You just made the claim that there are errors in the Bible. How can this be defending the faith. In fact, you are trying to falsify our faith. That's the thing. This is your "works".

Do you even know the process of copying the manuscripts? Do you even understand when Jesus says For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

The thing is, when the scribes were doing the copying. If there is even one mistake in the jot. He has to write the entire passage all over again. There is not supposed to be any error in the scriptures even from the point of the jot and tittle.

I mean imagine this. Jesus quote from the scriptures. If say what you say is right, then how can Jesus even quote from the scriptures confidently?

The field of textual criticism is more then just that. They actually analyze the passages and determine if those passages are "right". They decide whether or not which passage should be in the bible and which should not.

A scribe is not supposed to "correct" anything. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Your so called "slips of the pen" , different spelling of words, different word orders, etc are just contradiction. And yes, there are lots of contradiction in the Alexandrian text because its not the words of God. No one in the secular world would accept those kind of contradictions and then conclude that the source is authentic. In fact, if we were to present those kind of sources to the secular world, it would only prove that its' fake. That is where Majority text lies. No one can say that the Majority text are fake because they agree with each other most of the time. This is called manuscript evidence. It's comparing the manuscripts and ensuring that most of the text in the manuscript are the same. Also the number of manuscripts that are being compared is large. That is where the term Majority text lies. The thing is, you have just proven that your so called Alexandrian reading are fake. No one in the secular world would accept that. But then they cannot question the Majority text authencity because of the points that I have written.

Of course. I am not doubting you have 99.95% of the New Testament. But then from which source. From the source of the Devil or the source of God.

You know penguins



The kjv underwent more than 10 revisions



I thought you cant improve what is perfect lol

It depends on whether you live a surrendered life to God where you give God the right to work everything out good and bad in your life for the better or
If you live a 50-50 commited life to God where you also give room for the devil to wreck havoc, you will not really be able to appreciate or give credit where credit is due.

I'm sure when God brings someone for you, it's meant for you and not someone you don't like. God always have the best interest for his children. But if you push God's grace away then It's really up to you.

Surrender to marry someone you don't really like just for the sake that she or he is a Christian ?

😳😳😳😳😳

...the most common situation...can't find the right Christian partner, but easy to find non believer partner.

Current available single Christian in church is not someone he/she likes.

Scripture says "He has made everything beautiful in His time." and it's true indeed.

A Catholic lady, who is a doctor, had problems finding a life partner as I recount what her mother was telling me sometime ago. The mother insisted that the partner was to be a Catholic no matter what. The father was like any doctor would do, as long he's not a quack doctor.

Like all mothers, I would see in all the churches masses I went. It didn't matter to her but I knew what the mother was up to.

So after two Christian boyfriends whom the mother was not satisfied with, our Lord granted the mother and her daughter a Catholic boy, whom went on to her husband. Now they have 2 beautiful children and the entire family is grateful for what the Lord has done for them.

It was the same with me too.

Sometimes we just have to learn to have patience. Of course one can be impatient too but one will have to pay the price for impatience eventually.

I've intentionally left out many passages from scriptures just to keep it short but I am sure we can draw many similarities from the Bible, under such circumstances.

But to marry another whom one doesn't like, now that's something I've never heard before and I don't want to hear what a Catholic priest has to say about this or any Christian priest for that matter.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jan 31 2019, 10:57 PM