Hiya guys. Need some help from the gurus of warcraft here. I have always played clothies, mage/priest/warlock..but now i'm stumped.

I have a friend in the guild, dwarf warrior, that refuses to act as a tanker.

We have all reached level 70. We are all running lev 70 instances now and gearing up for 10man and perhaps 20+ man raids in the future but for some strange reason he refuses to respec.

His reasons:

1. I have all this elite gear and can churn out high dps. you actually think i'm crazy enough to sacrifice all that to become a punching bag?
2. I can tank well enough... I've been accumulating protection gear so all i need to do is wear em and switch to defensive stance (is this correct? i'm not sure)

Also as a warrior attempting to tank in arms specialisation, i find that he is unable to hold aggro. He claims in every instance run that its the fault of the mages (me included) for dpsing to early. So we let him get 5 sunders in, we release frostbolts & combination of arcane spells for threat reduction and guess what after two shots..mobs start running to us???

My priest OOMs in every run. He says the warrior is taking so much damage that his heals cant keep up and worse he is holy specced. This warrior also has a habit of not following Marks that have been assigned by the leader e.g. feels that he is uber enough to solo a single mob by himself when the rest of the team is resting..that kinda thing.

and whats even worse...he can't progress further than sethekk halls cos he still believes that he can tank??!!

He basically says we clothies have no idea what it takes to be a tanker.

So Main Tankers out there...please oh please tell me how one respecs and gears to be a good tanker cos I really am in the dark in advising my real life friend.

Help much appreciated.

simple, dont group with him.

Unless you pay his subscription, you really have no right asking him to respec. Than again, you don't have to get him as a tank in your groups.

Warriors being one of the most gear dependant classes, can swap their roles with a simple gear change. It is also possible to tank without protection talents especially since you're not really working on heroics. An option for speccing if he wants to retain his pvp spec, is to just get enough points of get defiance in the prot tree.

I have no idea of his playing style but it appears that he may be inexperienced in tanking. There are some very good stickies on the US and EU warrior forums on Learning To Play.

He's an anchor to ur group. Cut the rope and sail away. He's obviously lacks a brain on tanking. And elite gear w/o doin any 10-25mans? lol. Just laugh at him! =p

Well there's hardly any warrior dps gear in kara

edit: or more specifically, plate.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: May 10 2007, 10:32 AM

Unfortunately for our guild he is one of two warriors amongst a sea of paladins. For some strange reason everybody loves playing pally here. And after a gear inspect, (shock horrors) his idea of epic gear is blue quest rewards...EEEeeek!

While you say a warrior can tank just by changing the gear and such without respeccing, i have seen him drop like a rock in front of Talon King Ikiss...i kid you not. (even with a priest healing him and only him overtime till OOM). I've seen the protection gear he bought with his cash (he is kinda proud that he has over 3k, which kinda seems ridiculous now that i think about it when the rest of us have been spending cash like water to respec and regear and he refuses to spend even 100g for an enchant or weapons...sigh) and they seem quite good with all that +def and all that. SO i dunno i think a respec is necessary too.

The other warrior has respecced to prot and reshuffled his gear accordingly.

Since the warrior i mentioned doesnt look like he is gonna change ever...do you have any tips on how i can groom/train/practise run with this other protection warrior...you know just to get him comfortable with tanking.

This post has been edited by stefanong: May 10 2007, 10:38 AM

i think that was his question....

my advice would be... get a new friend

like seriously

you know in all honesty...i am seriously considering it.

or get a pally to tank instead if u run out of warrior.

Blue tank rewards are fine, especially the ones you get from SV and completing instances.

Protection paladins are also viable in 5 mans and Karazhan. So are druid tanks. Encourage off specs in your guild and you'll be surprised at the results.

As for grooming your warrior to become a good tank, It's not easy to become a good tank overnight. I still stand by what i said earlier about not needing to go full prot to be a good tank. However it's important to understand how the theory works. The following links will work.

Edit: They are a good read for non warriors as well if you want to understand how threat works and how much hard work it takes to be a good warrior/tank.

tanking guide:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...=75381044&sid=1
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...=94319875&sid=1

Gear guide:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...194559515&sid=1

Once you know how it's supposed to work, put it into practice. Apart from that the only other tips i can give is, learn the pulls, be aware of your surroundings and always look after your healer.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: May 10 2007, 10:48 AM

Thanks guys. I will do some reading from the link's you posted and thanks for the reminder kurei. It looks like he will remain casual for a very long time now. As it is, he can't even find a pug willing to take him to complete sethekk halls...let's not even talk about Steam Vaults, or even COT/tempest keep. I guess its just me trying to help a warrior who doesnt want to be helped lol.

thanks again guys

This post has been edited by stefanong: May 10 2007, 10:59 AM

Being a healer, one tends to remember good tanks and mediocre tanks. So, least healing required is Prot Tank < Fury < Arms. When I'm in a group with Arms Warrior, I tend to heal a lot more. Believe me, it's a lot more.

Whoever is tanking, they must be given a few seconds to gain enough aggro to hold the mobs. If non-tankers pull aggro, it's ok. Let them take a few hits. Because a good tank is able to pull them back to him. Look at Shattered Halls. The tank has to tank multiple mobs. The team will have to take a few hits, no choice, even if it means that your HP is going to drop by 50%. Deal with it - mentally of course.

Not following marks? Then the tank doesn't deserve to live. Let him die. Running instances or raiding is a group effort for survival. Whether he's tanking or DPSing, should be following instructions. If your team members can handle it good. If not, he shouldn't contribute to unnecessary stress.

I have a friend who is an Arms warrior who tanks. He's pretty good but even he says he has problems in BM when it comes to the 2nd and 3rd boss. Even with Prot gear. But he's ok tanking TK, CF, HP. This friend is also very interesting. He absolutely refuses to install addons or threatmeter but as he got to the higher level instances, he got threatmeter in the end, just so that he doesn't pull aggro off the tanks or that he knows what his own aggro is while tanking.

I have another friend, who is one of the best Fury/Prot warrior I've ever seen tanking. All DPS classes can continually cast spells (of course not the high-threat one but they do not need to wait a few seconds before casting). But he decided to respec to Prot/Fury for heroics as it was easier to get through those instances that way as he did not have the gear.

Your friend sounds like he's literally gone into defensive mode. Being a good WoW player doesn't mean that you've already reach your match. A good player would try different specs/builds, different strategies, etc. It's expensive yes, but doable.

As for your healer going OOM, healing gets a lot easier at +1K heals. Below that figure, it can get hard. But if your healer is getting OOM by that tank in Sethekk Halls, because of him not following marks, eep. Downranking healing helps too. And I absolutely love Prayer of Mending.

This post has been edited by myremi: May 10 2007, 12:02 PM

eh?

in plain tanking terms fury warriors take the same amount of damage as an arms warrior. Stop making things up!

Sigh.. i miss the days when i could Dual Wield tank in 5 man content, ZG and MC.

Well,

First off i'd like to say please throw away that mindset that Warriors are ONLY for tanking. Players have their own preference, some people prefer to be a DPS thats not so squishy. Not directed at the poster, just the general WoW community.

I didnt bother to read everything, but i gather that your guild is runnin 5 mans and needs a tank but he doesnt want to eh?

He doesnt really need to respec, i have tanked with, Heavy arms/Fury, Heavy Fury/Arms and my favourite Offtank build 34/10/17 all without problems with people that know how to manage their DPS/Agro and knows how to play. He might just need to start collecting more Tanking gear.

As for him losing agro. It's normal, Even a prot spec tank will lose agro if the group spams their skills like crazy getting crit after crit after crit. Let him get initial agro, Nobody pulls other than the tank or a Misdirect hunter as the initial aggro from pulling will help him hold aggro longer. If another class decides to pull, The tank will have to build agro to surpass that of the puller, And usualy for people, once they see the mob beating on the tank they will start spamming their skills including the guy that decided to pull making it very crazy for the tank to maintain agro.

Prolly the group needs to DPS a little bit slower, pace your casts...., Not only will this allow DPS casters to be more mana efficient it also lets the tank hold the mob better. It's Cool to see frostbolt crits 5 times in a row and your name on top of the DPS meter but just dont QQ if the mob comes a runnin after you. Identify who pulls too much aggro in your group. Perhaps the tank is taunting too much from a rogue lets say, Ask the rogue to tone it down so that he can save the taunts to save the first person on the taunt list: The Healer.

If the group does all that Any spec warrior can hold aggro by just spamming sunders, revenge, MS, heroic strike and sheild bash. Ask the tank *if he doesnt do this* to also to spam Sheild Block whenever it is up it will light up Revenge and also helps mitigate damage.

Marks, hmm ....just explain what all the marks are example:
Skull is first kill, X is second kill, Square is trap etc. Explain how the pull will go. If something is marked as kill first ask him to keep building agro while ocasionaly switching to another mob that he is tanking to sunder or perhaps taunt if it runs of to the healer. Letting him know what he will need to do step by step may help avoid confusion and wipes. In this situation all other marks Except those CC-ed and marked as Kill must not be touched. This is so that the tank doesnt have to worry about anything else other than the kill target and second kill target in a big pull. I've had pugs that keeps bangin on X while skull is clearly marked as first kill....what i do in this situation? let him tank it if he wants it so bad. And taunt it off the healer once he is dead.

Healer OOM. Maybe healer is OOM-ing too fast coz he is healing everybody and not just the tank. Again, Aggro management, following marks not only does these ease the job of the tank it also eases the job of the healer and damage mitigation helps too.

Other than that it's all back to basics, Put stam enchants on your tanking gear, buy stam gems etc. A defense rating of 490+ should be good enough for most 70 instances.

Lastly, ask him nicely Say that you guyz Really need a tank to progress. Ask him to read up about tanking and bear with it even he doesnt like it for awhile, at least until you guyz find a dedicated tank and he can be the DPS/Offtank. If he still doesnt want to, dont force him it's his preference and choice. Just go find another guy that is willing to tank for your group.

Never force, it's a game...and if people are FORCED to do sumthin they dont like...the game wont be fun anymore and your RL friend might decide to quit.

Phew thats my advice/rant ;p

Edit:@kidicarus, yes fundementaly they do BUT there are fury tree talents give the warrior some healing if he is critted or using a skill like bloodthirst.

This post has been edited by Grimwrath: May 10 2007, 01:01 PM

He's not tanking if he's using bloodthirst. And if he's getting critted in the first place, that's not exactly making him easier to heal is it?

And yeah, that brings me back to the first post i made - no one should be forced into a spec. But that also means that if your spec is not as useful to the group/raid/guild don't expect to see that much action.

Well, initialy i was about to say what you said to myremi but then i remembered about BloodCraze.

Getting critted with 12k armor in defensive stance is not nearly as bad and as getting critted as a clothie and is easily healed through.

Regenerating 3% of your total health where usualy tanks have more than 10k helps. It might not seem like alot but maybe thats what myremi means.

Which is less than 1 renew/rejuve tick in the long run that's really nothing. Not to mention blood craze ticks over 6 secs? 300hp over 6 secs on say a 6k crit will not help much. It's a filler talent and really more appropriate for a grinding spec.

Point is, apart from speccing prot, it's the gear that makes the difference... not the talents. If you're in gear with 490def you're not going to get critted.

edit: blood craze has a role in pvp for anti rogue and when they fix the bug of it not stacking with 2nd wind. For pve dps it's useless, and for tanking a waste of the 3 points unless you're planning on getting critted all the time.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: May 10 2007, 01:42 PM

If u plan to get anywhere in pve, specced it. If u arent specced for it and dun do well dun whine its only ur fault. Is just like when i respec for arms i will nvr ever run a dungeon with this spec just bcos its aint that much fun tanking with it and its a burden to the rest of the group constantly holding back. But of cos i spec arms to do 3k crits in bg/arena. haha.

very eh. put it this way, the other factor is the players' playstyle. Again, only from what I see. No, not making things up as this was only observations. Reasoning behind the observations, I'm open to what u guys are saying mah. Besides, all conclusions are up for discussion.

Tsk tsk Kidi, chill. Want ice-cream? I know it's a hot day but... Screaming at people?

Yah, those days of being Dual Wield Tanking were awesome to say the least, pre-BC. Although I did have an Arms Warrior saying to send in a Caster Pet in for tanking while she dual wield for DPS in a PUG. Was thinking that "Wah! Now that's a lot of expectations from everyone in the group. " It was a PUG through botanica with all complete strangers.

This post has been edited by myremi: May 10 2007, 02:52 PM

Long gone are the days of dw tankinggggggggggg. /sigh. If there was hamstring in defensive stance, tanking in 5man also becomeeeeee so easyyyyyyyy.

SCREAMING? WHO'S SCREAMING?

LOL my my...everyone is so into this game anyways its good to hear feedback from you guys. its like a chicken and egg situation now. See the tank is blasting and moaning and complaining that the rest of us dont support him. He wants to get better gear but cant cos no one wants to run instances...so i organise runs for him but he cant tank and the party wipes constantly...soon everyone is avoiding partying with him like the plague and back to square one he starts complaining again...lol

Its strange but he is also the first person that condemns shadow priests for being lousy healers in an instance run...sigh..so i guess his ego couldnt take it when the rest of the party suddenly turned around and told him that he was an awful tanker lol.

with your feedback at least i know what kind of gear to look out for and perhaps what enchants i could try and coax the warrior to get. That way he wont be frustrated at his constant death and plate repair bills and overall people wont freak out when they are asked to party with him to gear him up as a tank.

Great advice guys

if the warrior dont have at least 20 prot talents, i straight out reject.

if the warrior still loses aggro after 5 sunders is applied provided hes in the group having him armoried and confirmed at least 20 prot talent, ill also boot him during the middle of the run and replace him if im not in a good mood.

im a dagger rogue, last thing i need is shits smacking me and i totally cant mutilate anymore aka not dpsing. when i cant dps properly i get cranky. same would apply to non warrior tanks like feral druids or prot pala, but for me personally, i straight out reject prot paladin. too many bad experiences with them, no need to waste my time further in risking another pos prot pala.

even being this picky, i dont have too much problems getting group runnin anyways. with the who list and now auto lfg system... things isnt as hard as it seems to get groups running. so if you can provide urself to the table, ur out, and for the most part, the group/raid leaders wont even have any hesitations in replacing you, theres many otheres for example in this situation, willing to tank, willing to spec prot, willing to put up tanking gears. they know, if they can run the instance, they can get their dps gears, they can get their rep for more dps gears, and spec back n forth and ultimately progressing.


tell this to ur friend in a nice way, or just link him over lyn, let him realize this. truth hurts but its the best thing that you can give.

coming to this forum can occasionally scare ppl away. we are perceived as harsh.

so how ah?

this entire posting reminds me of the shattered halls question that was ask awhile back. boy, was that a long one.

kargath still cant masturbate

Tell your warrior if he wants more uber gear than what's he is wearing, respec protection for a month or two. Get all the gear from all the instances (and heroics), then go crazy with the new epixxx. And the faster he does this, the faster he gets the gear and the less time he needs to spend in Protection.

That is not to say Arms/Fury is not good, but from your description he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed (you mentioned the Shadow Priest thingy). I've known many warriors who can tank very well with very few points in Protection (if any).

Make sure tho that you're also seeing his view. "Why should I be protection if the priest is shadow?" could be another reason. Be prepared to do the same if he asks that "you jump I jump" in respeccing.

Another factor is that the warrior could be his only toon. A Protection Warrior farming for gold & mats is like visiting the dentist. Offer to help him farm as another argument for respeccing.

Thus the fastest route for him to get gear is from instances, and the easiest way to do it is with min/maxing your group (pure tank, pure healer, and 3 dps/cc/support).

If he insists on being what he is, tell him that his playstyle is PVP, and that he can forget about grouping with you (or any other people) for heroics and such; and he can spend the rest of his WoW days doing AB, WSG and AV (teh horror!).

You're better off looking for a druid bear (who can farm, pvp, tank & dps all in the same talent tree).

being respec from fury to prot is pain at the beginning... when normally u can kill a mob fast when questing and suddenly it changes everything after respec... i used to be a arms warrior and have to respec to prot since my guildies need me to run instance... find it boring at first... but after a few weeks getting fun of the prot specs... i can do something funny/ crazy with my prot specs.. like tanking 7-8 lvl 71 elemental fires in elemental pleatau in nagrand with a priest... haha... well it merely kill us but we survive anyway... prot warrior always can do such fun stuffs with priest... hehe

raid kick
gkick
i sure as hell dont pay for his monthly subscription fee
but he doesn't pay the otehr 24 ppl who raids with him to wipe day after day after day due to his selfishnes

being a guild main tank, you get consumables sponsored... i dont see what's so pain in that

This post has been edited by sets84: May 11 2007, 01:08 AM

this is what i tell my guildies when they try to complain about my nazism or the "you dont pay my subscription" bullshit.

QFT right there

everything everybody says about arms/prot tanking or fury/prot tanking is bullshit... your idea of tanking is your surivability in when it comes to tanking... the only reason why ur still able to tank in those specs is not because ur good, ITS BECAUSE THE HEALERS ARE EXCEPTIONAL AND THE DPSERS ARE MINIMIZING THEIR DPS!

from my poitn of view as a dpser and a healer (i play both up to gruul, and goin on for mag now)...

DPSer - if my aggro chases yours, RESPEC!!
healer - if i cant heal the spike dmges u take, RESPEC!!

ur hampering the 9 (kara) or 24 (major raids) others full capabilities with your selfish mind set. if you're not full prot, i dont intend to see you in any raids unless we make room for 1 dpsing warrior. that also is just 1, to boost rogue's dps and synergise with other meleers (druids, rogues)... usually we are better off with none

and dont tell me dpsers should watch aggro... all fights are a dps fest right now, either you dps it down in a certain time or u die. watch aggro? no time for that... the only situation i've faced so far where the dpsers have to watch aggro is in gruul where the meleers have to be lower than the OT to not eat hateful strike. a test of measurement for your tps check, make a 3 warlock 2 shadow priest team, and make them push their maximum dps... the top 5 should be them, and the only threat reduction skill to be used is by the priest spamming fade whenever its up...
that group will contribute at least about 50% MINIMUM of your raid dps... and if you cant cater for them then ur in deep trouble.

yeah u can say wear kara epics and respec, but respec to go what raids? farm kara for anotehr 6 months...? congrats on your progression then.

This post has been edited by sets84: May 11 2007, 02:33 AM

umm they're doing 5 man non heroic content. no need to get so elitist about specs... seriously

but no they don't have to take him if there's a better person available. It's his choice if he doesn't want to spec for pve.

O.o sets84 is in Righteous Fury mode.

i don't get it,

Why is everybody having pain respeccing to prot? once you hit enough people, you won't be bother doing normal 5 mans anymore, it will be raids and heroics.

sets and quaz are not arguing


sohz what did you guys do last night?

hot buttsecks?

not really hard to figure out actually... the greatest responsibility one person can have in a raid is the maintank. then it will fall down to healers, then dps. if the tanking part already 'failed'. everyone follows down with him. and when people like this guy (the OP's friend) exist, makes you wanna bash something up real bad.

well, at the end of the day, it's still the player's choice on what he wants to do. admitting that one cannot play way is very hard on them. truth hurts. pride gets in the way.

stefanong, status update please. we're curious to know what happened.

xiaosin, everyone dramatic. even kidi and kurei. but different experiences being shared. noticed how if anyone says something not right, all these hardcore players are the first one to response?

usually ill ignore people like them, they are those type who refuse to listen to other people comments or afraid of changes

to me its a waste of time to try convincing people like him

Kepoh!

And there's usually an off topic comment like the one above which is usually more about the posters rather than the topic at hand...

Sigh.

Its used to be Healer > all in pug... but now it's different.

Tank > Shadow Priest > Healer > Dpser now...

Hmm... something must be wrong, wtb more heal spec pally/shammy/druid so all priest can respec to shadow.

(Me for one will never refuse to be shadow)

To me if the tank refused to be proc, and if there is no mage water, I'll remove myself from the grp to save my water bill. and put him on my never to grp again list.

Aren't you?

Sometimes off topic comments helps, sometime not. Sometimes it just helps to diffuse a situation, sometimes to fuel it. You could chose to ignore it you know. Or you could chose how you should be responding to it, in red fury or with blue coolness.

Not really no.

Trying to provoke a response. That's what's known as trolling.. sigh

isn't what these boards are for?!!!

Idd, and I'm usually the first one to admit that I am. I just get annoyed at trolling posts which don't purport to be trolling posts and have no attempt at humour in them. See 80% of the 1250 posts in coffee thread.

You do like sighing at yourself a lot. Self-suffering? Or depression?

As for that coffee thread, if it wasn't there, it could have been worst. The 3 gals were hijacking threads unintentionally for our coffee meet up arrangements so created one where we could troll. Dunno how to work the PMs to multiple senders (function disabled?) so it ended up in LYN forum.

And see? U made me put up another offtopic comment. Bad boy kidi.

OP mentioned gearing up for 10mans. So hence the prot spec argument. U wanna raid and do well u gotta be an elitist. U wanna raid but be ignorant and spec what u wan is also fine. Just dun cry, whine n point fingers at ppl where part of the blame is on u. U pay ur own subscription, fine. No one is paying u to gimp the rest of the raid nor being selfish.

i mean if friend friend, ok la...you don't want to spec ok lor

but if i am raid leader, first thing i ask, you prot? no ? ok stay in Q.

Raid wise i want a prot warrior to tank, not a xx talent warrior to tank which he can argue with i can just switch gear stuff, i don't care.

lol...ok update guys...wah he was not a happy puppy when i sorta let him know about how to improve..i was diplomatic as possible...same shit like b4, mages/dpsers fault bla bla...clothies dont understand shit about warriors bla bla...sacrifice dps for a bunch of morons bla bla...

ugly story shortened:

looks like he will be playing his "farmer" warrior to get grind mats for alts and focusing on playing his rogue that he seems to like. Our guild would prob have to look elsewhere lol.

After running 5 man instances for some time, you can pretty much gauge what you are in for from the get-go. As much as i try to be the carebear friend but I really am fed up when after much explanation he still doesn't see the big picture. Unless you pvp, the natural progression is pretty much completing the instances for rep and gear to prepare you for larger man instances then raids...its inevitable or you would prob end up putting your character in cold storage and working on leveling another alt..but for how long?

Anyways, he put me on his ignore list, doesnt want to hear a single word from the guild and he has made it absolutely clear that he just doesnt give a flying f..fist about tanking. that pretty much sums it up lol.

wanna me advise ur fren? not FOC..
i had sucessfully asked alot of warr in FM respec to prot.

i got 1.6k healing. but im lazy healer, u dun dps fast n u get heavy damage, u wait die. so i nvr oom

so wrong. i been force to spec holy. shadow gear all kena vendor.
for certain class, if u're useful to raid, eventually u're useless when u're alone..
esp 1 of the issue that coming out @ next patch: all mob will atk the miner, no longer the miner's agro to mob, but the mine agro to mob..

still pain, 24 hrs reset instance.. profession 's mat farming.. $$ farming , regent $$, repair $$ ... blabla yadayada


ya lor

QFT, so KPC this girl...

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Added on May 11, 2007, 12:42 pm

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Added on May 11, 2007, 12:57 pmgood job, now you dont have to waste ur time anymore on him, look elsewhere for another warrior.

=edit=
if your not giving up, link him to this thread. better let him hearing from us than you, because its useless already, why bother trying anymore?

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 11 2007, 12:59 PM

kidi and q : hai.... when i ask how is the update, kena tembak. when i ask for status update from d on account getting banned, no one said kepo.

stefanong : sorry to hear that. sometimes things like that do happen and it's harder when u're friends with that person. well, i try now to get ppl like your friend to actually speak to an experienced player rather than try to persuade them myself. mind you, sometimes it's hard for me to resist giving feedback so it does backfire.

gladys : sounds like me. very very evil. even if say lag, ppl never kick out from party, even when getting hit. so they put up with me.

This post has been edited by myremi: May 11 2007, 02:00 PM

Personally I have had better experiences with bear tanks and prot pallies, as opposed to warriors. Maybe it's just that these tend to be more dedicated to learning how to generate threat rather than warriors. /shrug

A warrior who has 'epic gear' and tells mages to wait for 5 sunders is a noob warrior, anytime. My guild's mages all crit frostbolts for 5k frequently, but our maintanker can still hold aggro without the mages dying (unless there are other mobs, then it's their problem ).

Don't group with the warrior unless he's up for DPS. Screw him as a tank, since he's so stubborn about it. You will find that a skilled tanker will be pressing enough buttons to hold aggro with 2 sunders or less.

If your guild has a problem with him, throw him out. You can be sure that many other guilds won't accept him as a tank.

I've seen Fury warriors who can tank, but of course the damage they take is much much higher than if he were a Prot tank. And if he can tank until healers run out of mana and the boss still isn't dead, either your dps is not high enough, or his threat isn't high enough for dps to take over.

Just kick him from the guild, ignore him, and label him as a bad tank. It'll benefit you more than him.

if he's your RL friend and he /ignore you. I'd say bye bye, don't even bother befriending him. Waste of time.

wah talk about world of warcraft spilling into real life...

While it is everybody's right to play the way they want it is also everybody's right to group with who they want. If the warrior wants to contribute to guild runs, in the great majority of cases, they are needed to tank. So spec like he means it or eventually the others will just get fed up of the mobs coming after them all the time and find somebody else.

Those guys who dont want to spec protection are usually the PVP guys. Fair enough, protection sucks majorly for PVP. The payoff for the sacrifice is that the protection warriors will be around and heading off into more and more new content (and more and more updated gear)while the DPS guys get left behind on the curve because noone wants to take them into raids and heroics.

Lotsa warriors level to 70 with a DPS spec, then respec to put at least a healthy amount of points into Protection. Dont have to like it. Just have to do it. Blame blizzard and whine on the forums if it helps, but do it if you want to keep experiencng new content.



This post has been edited by limsk: May 11 2007, 06:46 PM

pre-bc dps warriors can top meters EASILY, boss or trash.

too bad, this aint pre-bc no more.

sigh at the lack of viability of dps warriors now. But see how black temple gear does have solid warrior dps gear? Maybe they're trying to bring dps warriors back! =p Wishful thinking...

But i rather play tank more than a dps now anyday. Come on first dibs at loot!!! lol.

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Added on May 12, 2007, 2:00 amNot disagreeing with u but the mage gets 5k crits off the bat, its pretty hard to hold aggro as a tank. Solid tanks normally trash out 600tps or below intially and only above if SS crits. Well geared sometimes doesnt work to ur advantage with the avoidance available on it. And sometimes u just run into a string of bad luck i.e f***ing dodge parry miss miss in sucession. God i hate those sometime. Or u can run into good fortune, like on prince tonite i did manage to maintain 1150tps for 20secs or so due to SS crits, multiple windfurys n tf procs all together.

And fury specced warriors just can nvr tank (as in hold aggro properly) so long the dpsers are geared. Its not even remotely possible.


This post has been edited by Kurei: May 12 2007, 02:00 AM

frost channeling and if the mage want to live on the edge, he can overtake tank aggro but still wont pull it... so long he stays over 30yds at least.

ranged aggro = require 130% to overtake tank, that accompanied by 10% talent aggro reduction, not much chance the mage can get aggro unless he REALLY want to do it and continue trinketing + more crits and land a counterspell or 2 for more extra threat.

but i do agree with the later statement fully, non prot = GTFO.

Real top end raiders bring warriors as DPS. The main weakness of warriors is that they don't have any threat reduction skills. But at the same time because they're not limited by silly things like mana, they tend to get stronger as fights progress. Not to mention additional utility in 25 mans and unbeatable damage post 20%. I personally like rolling with a DPS warrior by my side for offtanking in Karazhan where necessary because lets face it, more than 1 Prot warrior in a place like karazhan is a waste of space.

We encourage off specs at my guild so people get to play the way they want as the last thing I want is raid burnout. My guildmates are also the type of people who will respec for a raid if we're short of healers/dps/tanks so yeah we show a middle finger to spec elitism.

For viable DPS warriors check out armory profiles of Anise of Forte on Kazzak, EU, also check out the profile for Ellayne in Failure on Magtheridon, EU. One has killed Lady Vashj (in a legit kill apparently), the other one frequently msns me complaining that he isn't getting enough epixx in SSC...

Not to mention Kungen revenge crits for 500k!

edit: confusing method with forte... ignore lady vashj bit

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: May 12 2007, 12:50 PM

while warriors dont have any aggro dumping abilities, they already have innate -20% aggro via zerker stance. reason why warrior is slipping behind from being able to top dps even overtopping rogues since 2.0/bc started is cuz rogues innate threat reduction gets buffed to 29%, and other classes like lock/mage getting complete aggro dump while warriors getting absolutely nothing save talent additions/changes here and there.

that said, id love to have a MS warrior in group for the MS debuff on certain fight, and bloodfrenzy debuff... buffs me, the maintank (aggro too), and other physical dps up by 4% dmg...

I asked a good fren, a dps warrior from the top guild in my server, on what the situation is with warrior dps. I havent played dps in raid since tbc so i was just curious especially with the current posting. He explains with his current gear there is no problem with him keepin up with casters and rogues in dps. He even believes he can exceed most of them but only to be limited by the aggro threshold. Lack of threat control mechanics severely limits his dps to being only top 8 of his guild dps charts.

exactly my point...
u wana dps but u cant dps...
ur taken just to pick loots that would probably go wasted without u there, and also to buff the other melee dps... very sad imo

As long as the guild has at least 1 protection spec tank or 2 would be better, i couldn't care less how other warriors wanna spec their char. Tell ya the truth, i love having fury warrior / feral drood as my offtank for kharazan. doesnt rly matter if the fury warrior has pts in defiance or not.

Yeah, that's the point i'm trying to make. 2 prot warriors in 10 mans means a waste of a dps slot. Simple as that. You could take a feral dr00d or prot pally for the OT role, but i find most of the time (esp the prot pally) they don't contribute much (well.. except maybe overhealing)

Haven't been dps for a long time. Atm tbh my fury gear sucks at lvl 70 having practically collected very little else except for tank gear. The lack of threat reduction mechanics however, can be countered by using something like my old fetish of the sand reaver to push dps. 3 min cooldown for a lot of threat reduction which ties in with the deathwish cooldown + recklessness

For well geared warrior dps you want to maintain constant damage till you get to the last 20% when bosses typically enrage and then go all out to make the last 20% go by as quickly as possible.

Booooo to blizzard. But hey if warriors could dps like b4, rogues will be out of a job =p

was pretty close between me(1st on dmg meters) and a dps warrior(2nd) on prince the last time (0.5-1% diff) but he took more pots than me like mongoose and shrouding potion to reduce his threat, though overall i think my gear is better than his.

Why would anyone want to reduce threat on Aran?

maybe because it is not Aran?

reading skill turned off?

Yes... apparently

Dunno what the big hooha is...he has made it clear he doesnt want to tank, so leave him be.

Just find a warrior who is willing to put time and effort into speccing prot and gearing up

in my guild, we have 2 prot tanks as the backbone MT of the 2 kara teams, and 2 fury warriors as dps and melee interupts....Arms warrios....dun get a slot on progression raids(new boss), if there is space, they get to come for bosses that are already on farm

forcing a warrior to tank...is like forcing a paladin to heal...

5 mans team of 1 prot war, 1 flurry war, 1 holy priest, 1 shadow priest & 1 roque is ideal i guess?

My toon is a warrior also & i found it rather frustrating teaming up with druid & shaman (espcially those who dont know how to play their role well). LoL. i've failed 2 runs with them as healer!

No CCer? only the rogue to sap is bad

haih last time i am a dps warrior in my guild but now need to be proc to get into 5man instance due to dps warrior din have any cc

To the OP, this might be late as ur friend is ignoring u now but maybe if u have a chance u can let him know some ideas i have.

Taking sethekk halls don't need u to be prot. No need to respec.
I think it is more on playing style.
Watch his playing pattern and tell him (if he is not doing)
(1) Taunt is his best friend. Loose aggro? Switch stance and spam it to get it back. (i presume he is not in def stance since he likes dps) All mobs are tauntable there. so he should be able to use it (10sec cooldown if i remember correctly and I presume he has no talent on prot tree)
(2) Use skills like mocking blow / challenging shout etc. Cool down is long but better than no one wanna party with you.
(3) Since he is 70, if possible try get def above 490 which will remove crit form ur dmg table & and have at least 25% shield block. Shield Block removes crushing blow. But this is not a game breaker in sethekk halls and might be tough for him.
(4) Be more mindfull on the situation. Mobs on healers? Taunt! Hamstring mobs so they run away slower. Switch target when mob is below 5% etc casters will nuke it and chances are it will die within the next sec or so and move on to next one (more time to build up aggro)
(5) Must have the following :-) SHIELD. More armour = less melee dmg = less mana healers need. Unless u r an expert u can tank in 2-hander but i doubt this is the case. At least whipped it out on boss fights
(6) NEVER think too much of DPS meter etc when u tank. (U said he just wanna finish sethekk halls right?) Take back ur ego and just go get the loots (farming)
Party survival is key.
(7) Remember to switch stances Intercept and intervene is key for last boss fight.
Need to get it off healers after the AOE. Int and TAUNT (best friend)
(8) Bring pots. Lots. Rage pots armour pots, health pots etc
(9) Spams attacks like HS/Sunders etc.
(10) As a party CC well. Resheep / traps /sap. Minimize stray mobs.
(11) buy him a book on shapes and tell him skull in general = ur target. If all else fails tell him that if u kill mobs in the following order Skull - X - Moon - Square etc, u get more DPS. It is a hidden programming code from Bliz.

Bear in mind that no matter what, ppl are going to pull aggro. Mages...pyro/POM/pyro...ouch
It is how fast the tank get it back that counts. TAUNT!!!

-nub tank-

tip 11 is the winner

hmm....backtrack to this one. wanted to find out more.

Scenarios happened over the weekend.

Scenario 1: Shattered Halls
Pally tank + pally healer. Pally tank had crusader of aura out. Pally healer decided to put seal of judgement during single mob pull. Mob switches to pally healer and pally tank cannot pull off.

In multiple mob pulls, pally healer seems to get pummeled more. I've run with the pally tank as well as some of the ppl who were in the team with no problems but that was Botanic/Mech where we don't see these problems happening.

Scenario 2 : Shadow Labs
2nd boss room pull. 4-5 man pull. Prot Tank pulls. Before tank can pick up, pally healer puts seal on 1st mob tank pulls. All 4-5 man switches target immediately to pally healer if no one started pulling their targets.

Pally healer then stops putting seals on any of the mobs. Still gets a lot of aggro. Same thing happens when Shadow Priest drops VE and Shadow Word:Pain - only in these 2 instances.

I've not seen Scenario 1 and 2 happening except for those 2 instances. Mech, Bot, SV : no problems. Just in those 2 instances (SL & SH) that it seemed easy to reach the aggro threshhold a lot faster?

Im assuming your prot pally is pulling with avenging shield? if not he should be.

If he is not, scenario 2 is explained easily, to be in range to drop a judgement, your healer pally has body aggroed the other 3 mobs. Prot pally should drop a consecration and healer pally should wait for 1 tick b4 judging

also...pallies sometimes switch on Righteous Fury, and forget to switch it off.

btw if i was a elitist jerk...i would reply like this

1. Your prot pally is a idiot, L2tank
2. Your healer pally is a idiot, L2notpullaggro



also...tell your pally healer, not much point judging, especially in heroics, just burst them down fast

no such thing, its basically due to the pally healer/pally tank's actions being done.

eg:
- pally tank body pull 5 mobs
- ALL 5 mobs have 0 aggro on pally tank(bear this in mind)
- pally healer does a blessing, or a seal, or a heal (if the pally tank got hp loss), it will generate aggro. 5mobs will goto pally healer.
- pally healer, of course, in order to stay alive, needs to self heal, in return, generates more heal aggro
- pally tank, while aggro race dragging with the healer... (lol need for speed~)due to the nature of tanking multiple mob, requires to have all of those said mobs to have more aggro on pally tank than pally healer, if it reaches that, then it'll be on tank, else it'll stay on healer. being a tank without aoe taunt, he couldnt just taunt all mobs together, putting himself INSTANTLY at the same threat as the healer (thats how taunt works), and build his way from there. but that said, pallies have the BEST aggro advantage over feral tank/prot tanks in terms of aoe aggro, so it balances out a little.

wah tip 11 is classic! Anyways with tempers cooling down we are ok again as friends. I sent him the links about how to tank to him as well and i think he is doing a bit of research. Will prob get another team to run sethekk halls but...with a very experienced and well geared crew to compensate for my friend the arms warrior (yes he does not have a single point in prot which would prob explain his difficulty in using different moves to keep aggro).

thanks again guys for tips.

glad to hear that things worked out fine in the end. and hope things will work out well for your group of friends too.

the road to epic phat lootz is closer and closer now.