Who are you ? Mr authorithy ? you disturb UW, you disturb me. Need clarification ?

Bro Dee, He's not disturbing me lah, give me some time, I will explain to him.

you still being patient ... lucky enough i live under GOD's grace

This post has been edited by de1929: Nov 3 2014, 07:46 PM

yeah some tot is different. ie they tot disciples is more committed Christians

This post has been edited by ngaisteve1: Nov 3 2014, 08:04 PM

Yes it's the sick that needs the doctor, but after the sick has been healed, the person is healed, you can't call him sick, that is not the truth.
Even Jesus said: Go your Faith has made you well. Jesus declaring the person has been made well. He didn't call those who are made well as sick.

Same thing with born again Christians. The Bible refer all of us as Saints. Either you're a sinner or a Saint, there's no in between.


Yes Paul did mentioned He was a sinner. See below. He made it very clear.

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

The phrase there "of whom I am the worst" is referring to a point in time, he was. Not now. He was once a blasphemer....once worse of sinner, but not anymore, why because he was made righteous through his Faith.

As for Matthew 6, read it in context, you forgot to include the last line.

Matthew 6: 14-15 (NIV)
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

In verse 14, the focus is on you. If you still harbour unforgiveness towards others, God the Father will not forgive you.
That is the debt that the whole passage of Matthew 6 is talking about. Keyword "IF". If you have forgiven everyone, then you have no debts. This is the meaning.

No, that's wrong theology. Since when God asks us to keep admitting we're sinner after you have been made righteous and cleansed of all sins?

Acts 10:15 (NIV) - The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

Hebrews 6:1 (NIV) - Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

We need God's grace because:

Romans 5:17 (NIV) - For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 08:05 PM

How do I prove it to you that his sermon context was not about or neither confine to: "materially rich as in having millions of $$$"?

How? Since it's not even mentioned in his video? What do I do? Check out the youtube video at this time 2.35?

It's not there. Doesn't exist in his sermon. Do you understand or not? That is why the onus of the burden of proof lies with you, not me, since you accuse his sermon text surely contain the meaning of prosperity as: "materially rich in $$$$$$$".

You get it or not? Aiyo. What Logic is that.

Hope you dun angry.

Still want my definition of what prosperity is? Or do you concede first, you really don't know if he meant that? Which one now?

we won't fall into sin after we become a disciple?

you will be tempted to sin by devil as God allowed it and at the same time God will provide a way out for you too

LOLOLOL OK LETS MAKE THIS EVEN SIMPLER.

What language is Prince, You and me using? English right? Good.

When someone uses a word in the English language, it is defined by what the dictionary says it is right? When someone calls you "stupid" you automatically think it's an insult right? Ok, so we establish that we communicate using words that have meanings that we both understand correctly right?

OK NEXT STEP

Joseph Prince says of his sermon (that I have no access to because it's RM30 ) "God guarantees prosperity and success in your life". Now, remember what we established earlier, when we use words, we use them because we know that everyone understands what that word means. Now let's look at the dictionary for what the word "prosperity" entails:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prosperity

" the state of being successful usually by making a lot of money"



Of course, you might say: Well how Prince was using the word contrary to what the dictionary meant: He's actually saying that prosperity means being poor in spirit but rich in Christ. But then how do you know that? Because if he chose to use the word "prosperity", surely he wanted it to be understood as what the English word "prosperity" means.



But because you don't seem to understand simple language comprehension principles, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt: You don't accept the dictionary definition of the word "prosperity" (Which is like going up to someone's mother and calling her "stupid", and then explain to that person and his mother that what you actually meant was that she's really pretty) and want to define it (because I do admit that there are nuances to some words, but usually not to extremes) on your own terms, then define it and we'll see if what you believe is actually the prosperity gospel or not.

This post has been edited by Decky: Nov 3 2014, 08:35 PM

He expounds it according to Biblical principal. That is why you have to see the content of that video, some of the examples he mentioned in there.

From those example, you will understand better.

Secular dictionary helps very little when it comes to Bible exposition.

You will need Concordances to Hebrew and Greek text which is where he based his sermon from.

The word prosperity in the Bible mean an encompassing prosperity like Salvation, it is not just define to money.

That is why secular dictionary is not accurate.


There. Still angry?

Not angry, just confused as to how you seem to refuse to try to understand what I have to say but instead be so defensive and unteachable.

I'm saying this for the 4th time, the link I provided was an advertisement that he wrote himself for his sermon, but his sermon cannot be accessed unless you pay RM30, which I am not willing to do. So no, I cannot examine the sermon in full, but I can judge based off his own description of his sermon.


The Bible is translated from it's original language (hebrew/greek) to English by people who understand both languages. That's one reason why we have so many versions of the English bible, some more literal (more original to the original text i.e. ESV, NASB) or more paraphrasing (NIV, NLT etc.). So when they make the translation, they take into account how "secular dictionary" defines the word so that us English speaking people can understand what the text is saying.

You know why so many missionaries go to ulu countries to teach them English (with "secular dictionaries")? So that they can teach them the Bible of course! Language is God's gift to man so that we can communicate and understand the bible too.

Notice how prince is using ENGLISH to describe his sermon CD.



But anyway now we're getting somewhere: So you believe that Joseph Prince is not teaching that by believing in Jesus, you will be wealthy and succesful in real life right? And you believe that if he does teach that if you become a Christian you will be rich, then he's a heretic right? (notice how I've completely avoided using the word prosperity here)

This post has been edited by Decky: Nov 3 2014, 08:59 PM

When you try to understand the interpretation of the Bible, secular English dictionary should be your last resort, why?, because it base it's meaning from world point of view. Not Bible Point of view.

As you know Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek

If you want to know how to derive, Bible hermeneutics, you need Greek and Hebrew concordance. His sermon is Biblical based and every word in the Bible.

That's why I say, using secular dictionary to define his sermon context is flawed. So are you still confuse?

I'll give you one little snippets of what he meant.

Look at Joseph. The Bible says The Lord is with Him. And He is successful in all that He does. He was prospered by God.
Same thing with Abraham.

Now I don't want to get into the full detail because you don't believe that God prosper his people.....well.

Bolded text: Again demonstrating your hard heartedness and refusal to be open to reason. Even after 9999999 times of clarifying with you what I'm talking about so I can move forward with the discussion, but you keep twisting my words to make your argument sounds good instead of trying to understand what I'm saying (I said over and over and over again that God can and does occasionally prosper his people).

I don't know enough to doubt your salvation, but you need to reflect on your arrogance here: I can understand if you accidentally missed my post or something, but when I repeatedly try to clarify with you what I'm trying to get at and you do the same twisting of words again, it really looks like you're not interested in the truth, but only to sound like you are the wisest Christian in this thread and you don't like your "authority" being challenged.


If your primary goal in this "Christian" fellowship thread is to show the world how "good" you are and how much you "know" about Christianity, then I'll have no part in that.



Again, come back to me when you're REALLY interested in discussing the truth and not just flexing your intellectual muscles (when they probably aren't that big). You can talk all about hermeneutics, but really, come back to me when you've read something solid about the subject and not some 2 minute video on the subject that probably didn't cover much.

This post has been edited by Decky: Nov 3 2014, 09:31 PM

Bye Decky, we don't need your ministry here.

Whoa there. Wow you can say 2 minute video won't do justice but a small snippet of JP sermon does? And what's worse you use 1 word define in a normal dictionary as the actual context of his entire sermon?

Man you're not being fair here. How is that you being open? I am trying......but it's very hard if you refuse to understand that.

Look you want to challenge, challenge lah, I just reply and respond according to what you're asking.

The reason why I have yet to answer your last question is because it's already an obvious, how is it that you don't get it upon the countless explanation when I keep saying, He didn't mentioned that prosperity is just confine to materially rich in $$$ sense?

I mean how difficult is that to comprehend?


Successful yes. Wealthy? he never said that.

Rich in every way, yes. Rich Spiritually and Rich in contentment of whatever God has given you or will give you.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 09:50 PM

Common Dee, that's not the way.

To those who are a little confused about the subject but are interested...here are a few points to consider:

1)I don't doubt God prospers people. I know of a very good pastor who drives a BMW because his wife is a medical doctor and she comes from a rich family. I have no issues with that, God blesses whom he wishes to bless

2)What I have a problem with (and what I think the bible DOESNT teach) is the teaching that God PROMISES (meaning, it cannot be broken) you that you WILL be rich. There's a difference: God blesses who he wants to bless vs God blesses everyone with money.

"But if we tell people that God will bless them with health and wealth, wouldn't we save more souls for Christ?"

To which this will be extremely helpful:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3oFFZQqKdc

Basically, we're lying to them and leading them away from Christ, not TO him!


3)As for Joseph Prince's position, this article, an article written BY him on HIS website:


http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/gr...atever-you-say/



Brothers and sisters in the gospel, let us move ourselves away from such false teachings and focus on Christ, who has already given us the biggest gift that we can ever receive: Himself.

He died on the cross to save us from eternal damnation that you and I deserve and to reconcile ourselves back to Him, the only place where true joy can be found. He didn't die so that we can drive a BMW, own a big house or to have a problem-free life! Being a Christian doesn't mean that you won't get cancer (contrary to what someone like Prince would teach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6VRc1M-6Gk @4min mark onwards, listen to the whole thing to understand his context; UW is right in that we should give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's clear what he's teaching here), but that if you do get cancer, you can still trust God despite it!

Yes, temptation is always there and God will provide a way out. But when we choose to give in to temptation, this is where we fell into sin. The answer is yes, we will fall into sin after we become Christian. That's why we should confess our sin regularly. James 5: 16

v16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

and 1 john 1: 8-10

v8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Yes very true, I think it's dangerous to say that we don't have to confess our sins now just because we are saved. Of course, we are not saved because of our confession of sins, but because of Jesus' saving work on the cross, but true salvation leads to an active repentance.


Actually, there's a really helpful quote from John Newton (the slave trader who wrote Amazing Grace):

“I am not what I ought to be, I am not what I want to be, I am not what I hope to be in another world; but still I am not what I once used to be, and by the grace of God I am what I am”-John Newton.


Someone who is saved by grace will still sin, but there would be some change in his lifestyle that shows an active intention to fight sin.

Here's the excerpt:

God says that we will have whatever we say. So whatever we want to have, we can say it and have it. Unfortunately, we often say what we don’t want to have.

For example, we say, “I don’t know why I go through my money so fast every month. Even when my boss gives me an increment, there never seems to be enough money.” And true enough, we see a lack of money at the end of every month. 1*

You see, you will have whatever you say, good or bad. So why not change what you have been saying to, “From now on, I will have more than enough because Jesus became poor at the cross, so that I might be financially supplied2*—2 Corinthians 8:9. So lack be gone in Jesus’ name!”


Proverbs 18:21 (KJV) - Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. 1*

Proverbs 13:2 (NIV) - From the fruit of their lips people enjoy good things, but the unfaithful have an appetite for violence. 1*

So Don't curse yourself. 1*.

Matthew 6:25-33 (NIV) 2*
25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your lifee ?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Food, Cloth, Are tangible needs, supplied through the money you purchased, It doesn't come from trees. God is the one who gives you the ability to gain wealth.

And Philippians 4:19: (NIV) 2*- And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.

Needs here are represented by all types.

JP mentioned you will be supplied financially which is correct ( 2*). He didn't say You will be made RICH financially, that is twisting.

Edit: one last one


Beloved, declare your abundance, saying, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalm 23:1)

What does Psalm 23:1 Says?

Psalm 23:1 (KJV) - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

The word, I shall not want means I shall not be in need. Why? Because the Lord is my shepherd. And one of the Role of the Shepherd is to feed the lamb.
In this context, God is our shepherd. He provides our need.

Did He say you won't get cancer? I see the video, he said this: the Name of Jesus is greater than every diseases that man can name.

In Ephesians 1

22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

You can pray against even cancer. Why? Bcos according to Ephesians 1, the Name of Jesus is sovereign over Man's diseases and it's for the benefit of the Church.

All these is because of the biggest gift: Jesus Christ.


So what else is unclear, deck?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 10:28 PM