A problem that is evident not just in this thread but in Malaysia as a whole is the fact that these Christians understand Jesus only in the sense of him being a nice guy to the poor and the sinful (which we ought to), but they never seem to see him as ruler and judge.

You're absolutely right in saying that we aren't to be surprised when people make us their enemies because we proclaim the truth. The gospel is offensive because it tells people that they are sinners in the hands of an angry God but God, out of his great love and mercy saved them. I don't understand how so many Christians seem to think that if you make someone your enemy during evangelism, it's your fault and you're doing it wrong. I agree that we have to be graceful with our words and respond in love and patience in what we do, but we shouldn't compromise on the truth to please people.

I find it hard to preach the gospel to my non Christian friends precisely because of this: I care too much about what people think and not what God thinks. But that is sin.

UW, read the bible as a whole again and tell me where God promises all his people (including us) that we will prosper? Note the quantifier ALL. You've shifted your stance about th right to call out false teachers, good. Remember, Prince statement is that God PROMISES that ALL of us as believers will prosper and succeed in this life simply because we read the bible. Again, I am not saying that we should all be poor, I am simply against the teaching that by being a Christian, you will be materially rich (that is what the word prosper means).

i came to give you life and life abundantly... but devil come to steal, destroy and (something else)... forgot the verse...

Sorry if I am blunt here.
But I got to say that you are pretty ill informed on the issue of Kong Hee. Google is the your best answer on this. Maybe if you make a practise of that, you will not find it burdensome to go to RWI. Because I would think in RWI, not doing simple things like googling, will make you look pretty bad.

Jesus told us to look at the fruits of the tree.
A bad tree produces bad fruits.
A good tree produces good fruits.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Yes. The bible tells us to beware of them.
The bible tells us to identify them.

So yes, looking at the fruits, we should be able to discern whether someone has the HS or not.

As for judging. God does tell us to judge fellow believers in the church.
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

In fact, we are supposed to judge in matters in the church. We should not let outsiders interfere. When outsiders interfere like in the Kong Hee case, then it means we have failed.
Yes, we cannot condemned anyone to hell. But then the bible did say that false teachers will be condemned. We are just identifying what the bible teachers that's all. If false teachers have a change of heart, they will be saved as well. But then if they remain as they are, God will condemn them in the end.

Nope, it's clear to me that many are denying the truth.

Well, the bible does say.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Even demons acknowledge Jesus
Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.

So nope, not everyone who calls Jesus Lord are actually saved.

The context of the verse that you presented is more towards gifts. The whole context of 1 Corinthians 12 is on spiritual gift.
The manifestation of spiritual gifts would be as what you described on that verse.

I didn't shift my stance. I say you don't understand my point.

I said if you can really qualify what is False and What is true, then call it, if you can't with enough justification then don't. Since when did I shift from that?
Problem is, can you? I mean can you prove it, that is what was said in the sermon?

I have more than enough reason to know that most Christians don't understand the context of what was preached. In there I'm quite confident, they don't really know what they're talking about, hence I discourage from that angle to anyone from even judging that preacher/teacher because they don't really know the whole story or it's context.

You made it sound as if I've change my view and agree with you that prosperity is heresy, I never did.

No, remove that meaning prosperity = materially rich as in having millions of $$$ then we have equal understanding, otherwise no point, this topic will never end.
God's prosperity is never confine to that meaning.

Do that then I will show you the scripture.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 05:18 PM

wow debate on 'prosperity' still on going for almost 20 pages i think.

wazup ngai ... care to discuss about RONA (raise of new atheism) ? Decky has concern about RONA as he wrote in Post #184 ... until post #187... but drifted to prosperity definitions...

Beware of False prophet is usually in the context of

1) Denying Jesus is Christ
2) Someone else Imitating of being the Christ.

Beyond these 2 context, don't think hardly qualifies.


1 Corinthians 5 & 6 is talking about immorality and Lawsuit among believers.

The whole point in context is not to associate toward believers who claim to be believers but don't live like one and that is also in the context of morality.
The context of judging is to judge a dispute between believers and not against the believer.

The key point of that whole passage is here

1) 1 Corinthians 6:5 -I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

The Bible is very careful when it comes to terms. It doesn't contradict.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 03:13 PM

I think we just need to focus to do our part, invite people to church, cell-group activities or share the bible to those who are open to know more about God. And leave the rest (result) to God coz we can't control that.

This post has been edited by ngaisteve1: Nov 3 2014, 03:12 PM

Actually you should start from your church first. When you disagree with your brothers, tell them in a nice way.

As for friends, well, maybe you need to practise more discretion. The thing is, we should not deny that we are Christians. We also should not deny that non believers will not go to heaven.
But then, it will not be too wise to tell your friends that they will go to hell unless they convert. If they are interested in the truth, naturally they will ask you about it.

Now you're getting it.

Respect.

Just keep on preaching about Christ saving works.

The HS will go into action to save them.

A false prophet is also one who preaches another christ.

Also, on judging. I have already stated the passage that states that we are supposed to discern whether a person has the holy spirit in him.
For your convenience, you overlook this.

Well, the passage that I provided only support the stance that scripturally judging is scriptural. It goes against your opinion that we should never judge others.

In fact
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

This shows pretty clearly that if someone remains in sin, we are supposed to treat him like an unbeliever.

I have already stated countlessly that ultimately, God judges whether a person is going to enter heaven or hell. We do not do the actual condemnation. We only do the identification that's all.


This post has been edited by sylar111: Nov 3 2014, 03:42 PM

That is False teacher not False Prophet. Not the same thing, bro.

Actually in that passage Paul was more into reaffirming that they do have the HS in them rather than they do not.

1 Corinthians 5:7 - Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

That verse is quite clear, It's talking about judging dispute, I've given you that verse, how isn't that clear enough, it's not really about judging others? aiyo.

Yes we can point out if a brother has done you wrong as in Matthew 18. but that is the context. Wrong just between the 2 of you, as it said clearly.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 04:08 PM

We can control RONA ...

Bible say bind bind, release release.. i forgot the verse but trust me, it's there... we can bind RONA. Our tongue / mouth is powerful. Life and death flow from it (again forgot verse)... i am not talking speaking in tongue, but our tongue...

spiritual is much more real than physical. our physical body only 120 years, (i know bible say 70 or 80, but give a grace a bit lahh... ).... but our spirit is not aging.

how effective christian can bind RONA ?
1 day fasting enuf ?
maybe 1 month fasting ?
maybe daniel fasting ?
maybe 40 day like Jesus fasting ?
which bible verse ?
what kind of pray ?
do i need to wake up in the morning like Jesus to pray ?

this thing must ask HS and HS can answer anything HS think best to combat RONA...

my 2 cents

It's not just about pointing out.
It's basically treating him as a non believer.
That is actually judging.

Also, again I have provided a passage that tells us to discern whether a person is really a Christian or not. I will leave it for you to find it out.
When your heart discerns that a person is not a believer, I would think it's practically judgement from the heart.

I will paste this again.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Anyway just to remove the confusion
For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

So it's not just about false prophets.

The ultimate judge still lies with God. As I have said clearly. But God does give us authority to judge in certain matters.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Nov 3 2014, 04:21 PM

Bro Dee,

About binding, make sure it doesn't turn into psychic type prayer.
Unless you know it's God's will for sure.
Binding and releasing is spiritual warfare, shouldn't bind as we wished. I think if lead by HS is better.

Better to pray in the spirit and let the HS intercede.
It's better than if we may pray wrongly or say and confess a mistake that the devil may use to their evil advantage.

James 3?

Discerning and Judging are 2 different things.

Discerning (which I have supported from day 1 is the right meaning) is of internal contemplation.
Judging is of condemning others (with the measurement against yourself of how holy you are) which usually is the exact context according to scripture about judging others.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 3 2014, 04:41 PM

Yup, I can testify to that as well.

It's true.

in regard to pray in spirit and let the HS intercede:
some of our protestant brothers does not comfortable with "spooky2x things"...
some of our protestant brothers think speak of tongue / gift of tongue different than charismatics.

These differences are assets, not liabilities. RONA is liabilities. Those above are HS assets to combat RONA. ... asset is asset, use it for GOD's glory. Be it protestant or not, charismatics or not.

i can't give further details, but i get a glimpse pictures / concept which i can put in english:

Charismatics can speak in tongue in order to get detail how to combat RONA effectively, then sure enough revelations will come to Charismatics. charismatics / Continuationism, can download GOD's messages through many medium (which cessasionist are not comfortable), and channel to our cessasionist brothers information in plain english. Sounds like we work under blanket of Love (i didn't say banner of love song of solomon... different things).

during the progress, i assume everybody is comfortable with their background to combat RONA, then GOD's glory will fill malaysia. naturally RONA will be diminished.

If that's your definition, then yes we are in agreement.

But then in most cases, judging would probably mean seeing the wrong in others and pointing them out. I think that is what we should do.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Nov 3 2014, 04:51 PM