I don't he purposely confuse people here. can't think of a reason why

Are you implying he cannot simplify what he has written

He can but he will not to. Because he wants to confuse you so you will not question him.

LOL ... too overwhelming for the pope ... XD

It will be really hard to justify and be consistent with it throughout the Scripture because the Lord not only spoke in chapter 13. Also, later I will show why chapter 13 is a turning point to the Gentiles.

To be fair, let just consider "weeping and gnashing" and they are used 6x in Matthew.

It is used twice concerning the perdition of the false believers (13:42) and the evil heathen (13:50). Matthew 13:42 concerns the tares, the false believers who will be cast into the furnace of fire. The furnace of fire is not the outer darkness, but the lake of fire. Matthew 13:50 concerns the evil Gentiles, the corrupt fish that are equivalent to the goats in chapter twenty-five. They also will be cast into the furnace of fire. Thus, those who perish in eternal fire will weep and gnash their teeth. This is very clear for unbelievers because of the Lord used "furnace of fire". But the other 4 ... the Lord didn't use furnace of fire.

Matthew 8:12 says, “But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” It is very hard to justify sons of the kingdom as non believers. Also, Matt 5:48 - "You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" really shows who are the audience.

Matthew 22:13 says, “Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” This refers to the one who did not have a wedding garment. This, of course, does not refer to an unbeliever, but to a saved one. The King is preparing a wedding feast for His son.

This phrase is used two other times, in 24:51 and in 25:30. According to 24:51, the evil slave will be cut off from the Lord’s presence and have his portion with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sister verse, 25:30, says that the slothful slave will be cast out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. By reading all these verses, we see that the false believers, the tares, and the evil Gentiles will be cast into the furnace of fire, the lake of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, the defeated believers, such as the sons of the kingdom in chapter eight, those without the wedding garment in chapter twenty-two, and the unfaithful slave in chapters twenty-four and twenty-five, will be cast out into the outer darkness. There, in the outer darkness, they will suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth. This does not refer to eternal perdition, but to dispensational punishment. In addition to salvation, there is still the matter of the reward and punishment that will be rendered during the coming kingdom age. If we are faithful to the Lord, we shall be rewarded during the next age. But if we are not faithful to Him, we shall receive punishment.

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I think the two out three main portions in Matthew is very clear were given to believers: 5-8 (inward reality of the kingdom) and 24-25 (manifestation of the kingdom). The reality of the kingdom was revealed on a mountain, the appearance of the kingdom (chapter 13) was revealed by the seashore, and the manifestation of the kingdom was spoken of in prophecy also from a mountain.

(Getting too long - at least this verse should be clear it was spoken to the disciples)
Matt 24:3 - And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?

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Matthew 13:1 says, “On that day Jesus, going out of the house, sat beside the sea.” At the end of chapter twelve, the heavenly King, having been fully rejected by the Jewish leaders, made a break with them. On that day He went out of the house to sit beside the sea. This is very significant. The house signifies the house of Israel (10:6), and the sea signifies the Gentile world (Dan. 7:3, 17; Rev. 17:15). The King’s going out of the house to sit beside the sea signifies that after His break with the Jews, He forsook the house of Israel and turned to the Gentiles. It was after this that, on the seashore, He gave the parables concerning the mysteries of the kingdom. This signifies that the mysteries of the kingdom were revealed in the church. Hence, all the parables in this chapter were spoken to His disciples, not to the Jews.

It was quite interesting that even Dr. Scofield point it out that after chapter twelve, due to the unbelief of Israel, the kingdom had been suspended. Of course this is not correct but my point was there is a shift (that he even notice it). He did not see that, instead of being suspended, the kingdom was given over to another people.

The first three words of chapter thirteen, “On that day,” join this chapter to chapter twelve, just as the words, “At that time,” connect chapter twelve to chapter eleven. The words, “On that day,” refer to the day that the Lord declared that He had forsaken Israel, the day He cut off Israel and grafted in the Gentile believers. On that day He went out of the house, signifying the house of Israel, to the sea, signifying the Gentile world. This move from the house to the sea corresponded to His declaration. He had declared that He no longer had anything to do with His natural relatives but that He had turned to the believing Gentiles.

Yes, like you mentioned, the Lord spoke it parables so that the opposing Jews won't understand but in the same verses, "And He answered and said to them, Because to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been given.”

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to perceive the things that you see, and have not perceived them, and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them.

In other words, the disciples understood and perceive.

The first four parables in Matthew 13 provide a clear picture of so-called Christianity [very negative - won't go there]. After giving forth these parables, the Lord privately spoke to His disciples the parables of the treasure hidden in the field and the pearl from the sea.

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The thought of it have to consistent with Matt 16 on losing the soul life too where the Lord reveal who He is including the first time, the revelation of the church. What does it mean here? Because it was definitely spoken to His disciples only.

Then, Paul's word on "being saved through fire" ...

And many more verses in Hebrews.

So, the framework of interpretation have to be really consistent ... ... and so I am very reluctant ...

Just being thorough XD .... try to read .... I think we are all being much influenced by instant gratification ... too much info overload

Actually I did try to answer but ... as I go through your quotes ... <sigh>. Not sure if comprehension problem ...


1) Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden.
Clearly it is referring to believers lor. You are the lamp shinning (a believer) out in your living.

2) Deja vu on your " lamps as believers because Jesus states that the Bridegroom did not know them"

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...post&p=68868677

Didn't you made similar statement and can't come up with a reason ... that the Lord called them worker's of lawlessness and do not know them (The target audience are believers - Why were we be workers of the Lord if we aren't?)

3) "The passage on the wise and foolish is most likely to refer to people who did not stay the course. They could have some knowledge of Christianity and could even be believers at one point of time but then they decided to not stay on the path. By the time Christ comes, it would be too late. Jesus was telling us that we should always stay on the course."

Isn't this arminism? Then God's salvation is not effective?

4) Laodicea mentioned that we need to pay a price .... which corresponding to the virgin buying oil to be an overcomer. Like you mentioned ... they are believers

What broke the camel's back was probably 2) ... lol

I stop because it doesn't benefit you nor others. If you have a all-surpassing framework that can explain all the verses I brought up. Please do so that I can be enlightened.


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At the end, it was never about initial salvation. That is clear that we are saved by faith. We are saved eternally. The sense of security was never about our eternal salvation.

Then, please explain one verse (for now) in James 2 that says that Abraham was justified by works? Definitely this is not initial salvation.

think can consider write a book once you have structure the content perhaps

Unless it's referring to the natural heirs of the Kingdom, Israel, Sons of the Kingdom.

Jesus initial target for Salvation was the Jews.

Jesus elevated the Law to a higher degree to bring Man to the end of himself so that He gives up and admit He cannot.
The Target audience are to those who count of the Law of God for Righteousness. And They are none other than the High Priests, The Pharisee, etc (The Jews)

Tell me, who actually can be perfect other than our Lord Jesus?

A Saved one who have had his old garment removed and put on the Robe of Righteousness which is Christ Jesus. ( We have died with Christ and our life is now hidden in Christ)
This parables (to me) explains that we cannot enter God's kingdom on our own Righteousness (Own Clothing). It is symbolic in nature to make us understand why that Man is thrown out.


Brother.

A Slave have no inheritance over a Son. (Galatians 4:30)
He cannot enter the Kingdom of God, it is consistent with the phrase "being thrown out" where there is weeping and gnashing.
It's hard to reconcile that as a Believer.

This whole Parables teaching is quite consistent with how the Bible separate Salvation through Law and Grace.

It's harder to justify and reconcile to the Fact that Jesus came as a humble and gentle God. Who gave no condemnation to the Prostitute at the temple who is about to be stoned, who asked Peter to put back his sword, who did not retaliate at those who spite at him, who came to reveal God as Abba Father rather than "God" as one who would "tie our hand and "bind" our feet for punishment to "mature" us?

I find that rather inconsistent.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 6 2014, 01:00 PM

Whoah ... that statement will be very "dangerous" .... mid-dispensationlist guys will argues for this and they are considered very ... er... at the edge of Christianity. We won't want to go there

Then we can freely say A BIG CHUNK of Matthew is not for us believers.


That's right, this is why salvation is we received Christ into us to be our righteousness, both objectively and subjectively. Isn't that what you like about Grace. Subjectively, we experience Christ's righteousness day by day. Aren't the saved Jews believers?

And yes, Gal 4:6 did says that we are sons!

So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God. This is why Gal 5 charges us to walk by the Spirit. Also, Gal 3:3 ... if we are perfected by the law; They lived according to law.

And Paul charges them to live "The righteous one shall have life and live by faith'';"

I think it's the same misunderstanding that it is never about initial salvation. And He did came as God of love and grace. But He also is the God of righteousness.

I am not minimizing the wonderful salvation God brought to the Prostitute. But He also says, "Go and sin no more" implies that there is a living, a condition to enjoy His salvation further.

The most important is not to confuse "work" in the on-going salvation as something apart from the operation of the Triune God. Which is why most people cringe .... because that is the thought in their mind. The truth is twofold ... I may have repeat too many times .... but still ....

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 01:24 PM

Yes I know the sea represent the Gentile world, the symbolic movement of Jesus from the house to the sea, that I'm familiar with as well.
But what I meant in post # 1495, is that though the Parables are spoken to the disciples but it's not for them. Ver 2 of Matthew 13 indicates that all the people were there, that would have included the Jews.

In Matthew 23, He sat on the mount of Olives which I've explained earlier, The Jews were in the vicinity as well as I explained before in the same post. Read Matthew 26:3.

The Pearl and the sea is about Jesus who purchased that pearl.

The word reward/pay back in Matthew 16 is define as "restore" (apodidómi ) or to return what was lost in return for giving up worldly passion to be his disciple, it's not so much about punishment.

Not really. It depends on the context of the Parable.
Jesus came to give us strong assurance of his word on Salvation, Growth, Spiritual matters, not to confuse or give any sense of doubt. Hence (Matthew 13:11)
If He says, the secret is given to us but not to them, Then I believe it is as such. The Parables that speaks of rejection, punishment, hard Salavtion, etc is not for us. It's for those who don't have a heart for God and don't value his word but more over the things of the world.
We have to properly divide it.

For example in Matthew 8, When the centurion impressed Jesus with such great Faith as the First gentile who is not conscious of the OT Law, Jesus made a comparison that many will from the east and west and the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out where there is weeping and gnashing. It is a comparison remark from the Lord comparing a gentile who knows not the Law and the natural heir (so to speak) who knows the law. And Jesus is more impressed with the First. (Righteous shall live by Faith not by the Law)

That is not a dangerous remark. It is something we need to understand.

I was referring to Galatians 4:30, where the Slave will NEVER share in the inheritance and thus it is consistent with what was said about the Evil Slave being thrown out where there is weeping and gnashing. It's not referring to born believers being punish if that is your context.

The Power to Sin no more comes through the Gift of NO Condemnation from the Lord, that would contradict the need for punishment for maturity. That is my meaning with what is consistent if we understood God's Grace. Jesus did not condemn her at all. That empowered Her to go and sin no more. Like I said, if fear and punishment is what motivates us to right I'm afraid it would be a very poor teacher because it breed insincerity.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 6 2014, 02:07 PM

But verse Matthew 26:1 says, "And when Jesus finished all these words, He said to His disciples," ... most people agreed that this is another section already.

Re: Matt 16 : So, isn't losing it in the next age because we enjoy it this age .... not a warning? punishment . Yeah, isn't restore a reward? We don't want to split terms ... I could say Strong's concordance also have it as recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell. Let us not go there.

I think we will be really splitting hairs ... of whether Jews were there or not ..... But the disciples were there too.

Also, I do agree probably the Jews were there at Matthew 13:2 .... but the audience primarily of His disciples and the Gentiles. Also I don't think Matthew 13 is in issue here because I made it clear that all "gnashing of teeth" ... both portions are referring to false believers. What are we back here for?

I am starting to lose myself in the details ... what the premise again?

Hmmm ... I think it was clear that it is not about initial salvation. And why the view that God uses "fear and punishment"?

Why not view as God's COMPLETE salvation to deify man in His life and nature but not in the Godhead? Why not view as we are continually enjoying grace to be constituted with the Triune God for His expression.

As a father, don't we want our children to mature? We don't have to worry about fear and punishment. As we go on positively, we trust that the Lord's grace will train us.

1 Pet 5:10 But the God of all grace, He who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself perfect, establish, strengthen, and ground you.

I think we're splitting hair over genuine believers being punished for maturity where there is weeping and gnashing in the after life.

I think many are confuse over this.

My only argument is that If Jesus was already punished for all our sins. Why would God punished us again.

You guys really focus and determined. I totally lost track of all the episode. In conclusion?

Haha ... that ... is it not clear that it is not about redemption of our sins? It is not about the spiritual fact. It's an eternal fact beyond time and space.

Fact, faith and experience.

Are we applying the spiritual eternal fact to our daily experience? It's the faith to apply the spiritual fact to become our experience.

Today, we are God’s children through regeneration. But how are we progressing? Are we being sanctified and transformed every day? Are we growing in life? Are we serving Him as a faithful servant in the church life? So this is why we ... work out our salvation.

"So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

Anyway .... that's that ... I should stop for now

Haha ... no conclusion lar.

We all live faithfully according to the vision of the truth that we see. It is between us and God.

Not that I am here to convince anyone ... but just to show that God's salvation is SO MUCH MORE if someone is open to hear more.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 02:41 PM

What do you think?

The contention point is this.

What if, in the maturing process, we're still exhibiting many flaws in life (not Christ Like) and die and go to Heaven.
This is where Pehkay expressed that we will be punished in the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing.

The purpose of the punishment is to cause fear so that we don't repeat the mistake.

This Life transformation comes in when you stop struggling trying to achieve it.
The more you rest in God, the more the transformation will manifest.

Which coincide with Phillipians 2:13.

Something for you guys to ponder.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 6 2014, 03:15 PM

Hehe ... the working out is never apart from God's operation to live out Christ (Phil 1:21) ... Here is the twofoldness displayed ... which I mentioned before.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 03:04 PM