To be honest, I don't feel any loss not playing these games

I do get games outside of Steam, like Battlefield 3 on Origin or the upcoming Diablo 3. These are great games AND their own DRM isn't that much of an issue like GFWL.

Its about making potential sales to the fence sitter. Games like this one is something most of us can live without. There's only so much we can spend on video games and have the time to actually play them, the one with something to lose is these companies, not the gamers. To push something like GFWL, you've got to make sure your game is mighty good and have a large fan base like Diablo 3 or Mass Effect for example.

Otherwise, its best they ensure that their games is available through as many method as possible.

You should just play the PS3 version though... you can find it very heavily discounted by now.

Japanese have a pretty bad record at late ports to PC.

Played and completed on 360. Apparently it suffered less slowdown than the PS3 version in online play although this is just from lurking in the ps3 subforums.

I must say i really enjoyed the experience and I'm willing to give this game another go on the pc especially if they're adding new (high-res) content.

@hornet, I really wouldn't recommend this game to a fence sitter as i don't really want my name cursed to hell and back. PC is really an afterthought for this game.

Namco Bandai did it right with Ridge Racer Unbounded with Steamworks out of the box. They manage to port RRU from PSN or Xbox LIVE to Steamworks, what make it so difficult to port Dark Souls to Steamworks if they have done it in the first place? RRU did have some multiplayer issue, but those problems can be fixed. To be honest, I rather have a broken Steamworks implementation than GFWL to begin with. If i am not wrong, Space Pirate and Zombies developers took 1 week to implement Steamworks into their game with full Steam intergration such as authentication, achievements and so on. Considering Dark Souls is a more complex game, maybe a month would be sufficient.

Many publishers such as THQ, Codemasters, Bethesda and 2K had abandon GFWL in their newer games for Steamworks because Steamworks is more acceptable by gamers. Even Square Enix, who is also a Japanese publisher also use Steamworks for all their games. At the same time, Steamworks is far less problematic because Valve actually improves the Steam's functionality, while Microsoft never improve GFWL at all. Just because Xbox LIVE is working great, no doubt it's a great system, that does not mean GFWL is the same, even if both is using the same backend. GFWL is a terrible system by any stretch, worse than TAGES with it's 3 activation limit, Securom or even Starforce.

When your game is using a better, easier to use system, the sale of the game will be much better. PC gamers get to play an absolutely stellar game, while Namco Bandai manage to make a profit out of it. So, why shouldnt any developer use Steamworks in their games? Even Alan Wake uses Steamworks, despite its a port from 360 and manage to earn back their investment in porting the game over to PC in a few days. Bethesda seem to be making a huge profit with Skyrim on Steam with the game constantly appearing at Top 10 Best Sellers. From a business prospective, i do not see why Dark Souls should not use Steamworks. "Steam or no sale" indeed is fanboyism, but i can see the reason behind it.

A game with GFWL is a no buy for me. Anything else, from TAGES, Securom, Steamworks, Origin or even Ubisoft DRM are alright for me. GFWL has caused me numerous hassle in even playing a game that i legitimately own, why should i bear the frustration again? I do not mind dying in Dark Souls, but the frustration of using GFWL is just not worth the hassle at all.

So, they finally release the game for PC after you guys have been asking for it, and you guys are threatening them by not buying the game unless the switch their online platform? PC gamers are really amazing people. You can rest assured that if this sells poorly after people have been asking for it, Namco Bandai won't be porting any more games to PC. So far, they have 2 games on PC according to Wikipedia. And Dark Souls will increase this number to a whopping 3. Namco Bandai really has very little faith in PC to begin with.

Really, you people are not entitled to steamworks for the online platform. That is up to the developers/publishers. All they have to give you is a good game with no bugs. I have never had a single problem with games using GFWL. But I have had problems with GFWL. There is a difference. I have problems with the region settings in GFWL, I have no idea how to turn my profile into an independent profile since long time ago, I created a fake email for the "parent" email. And the list goes on. But not once, has this affected my gaming experience since I don't buy DLC.

Have you ever considered how annoying Steam is if you share the account with your family? Holy shit, right now, I'm in UK and my brother's in Malaysia, there's a 7/8 hours time difference so it's not that much of a hassle. It is brilliant to have all your games accessible from the same location, but Steam isn't exactly without it's problems as well. Last time, they had this bug where the update required a bloody brilliant redownload of the whole game client, and you know how big TF2 is and how frequently it gets updates. Needless to say, I could never play TF2 because I was on bandwidth limited broadband (Maxis, Digi). I was actually annoyed that Skyrim was Steam-only. I knew that I would be playing Skyrim for hours at a time when I first got it. Whenever my brother wanted to play something I had to stop. Don't even bother going, Steam has an offline mode lelz, Steam's offline mode is trash. It's been nothing but trouble for me. And they don't even let you go into it unless you turn off your internet straight. At least in a GFWL game I can just choose to not sign-in.

Though maybe I'll have more issues with GFWL once I play another game? So far I've only played SFIV online frequently with it, and so far it has no problems. I've been disconnected from matches sometimes but it happens in every other platform as well.
All in all, I just want to say, not buying a game just because they choose an online platform that you don't like is ridiculous.
But of course, they're obviously not very experienced on the PC platform, so that might just be why they are choosing an online platform that people dislike. If you guys wanna complain then go ahead, but threatening to not buy the game is not how to do it. For all you know, if everyone's saying they're not going to buy the game, then they could outright cancel it. Now that would be bloody brilliant, huh?

Did you forget that the only reason this is coming to PC is because of massive fan support?

Putting GFWL with a good game will make it a much more frustrating experience for the gamer. As someone who had a lot of problems with GFWL, no way i'll stomach it again as the problems i had is far more than all the problems Steam, Origin, Ubisoft DRM combined.

Namco Bandai manage to release Ridge Racer Unbounded PC with Steamworks, and what makes it so difficult to release Dark Souls with Steamworks too? Since both games are by the same publisher.

Steam is not perfect by any means, especially the offline mode is difficult to use and it's ridiculous policy in banning people. I had the redownloading problem and i hate it with my guts too. And the problem with sharing account, its you yourself who got into this problem. Not the platform's problem and by Steam's EULA, you are not suppose to transfer your account to anyone else. Also, comparing all the Steam problems to GFWL, Steam is by far better and easier to use than GFWL which manage to be preferred service by most gamer.

At the same time, i would say, look into the unhappy Dark Souls PC gamer's thoughts. These people want Dark Soul to be a commercial success on PC and GFWL is preventing the game from being successful. Bulletstorm was a flop on PC partly due to GFWL with it's infamous bad multiplayer NAT and region locked for most countries in the world. How are you gonna achieve commercial success if you confine your game to that selected 35+ countries chose by Microsoft? Or on a DRM/multiplayer system that barely changed since it's launch? Even the original petition had a mock up Steam store page for Dark Souls where it could be a sign where consumers wants a Steamworks version.

I dont see this as an entitlement issue, as if the product is unfit for it's purpose, such as a game that comes with GFWL that has a very high chance of preventing you from playing your game, why should anyone buy it? Consumers need to have a good product with no glaring defects, which GFWL has been failing to provide it.

I made my stand, if Dark Souls comes with GFWL, no sale for me.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Apr 14 2012, 01:52 AM

I prefer clientless all day long, but Steamworks online is pretty good. Maybe it's easier for the developer to port the game with GFWL.



for me this statement sound arrogant, lots people buying into this idea "no Steam, no sale". I don't know why. They have the rights to make a petition, but this mentality look so wrong.

This post has been edited by Angel of Deth: Apr 14 2012, 02:29 AM

So it's ok to push us PC gamers around like muppets and eat whatever is being fed to us? Please, this is not the first time that GFWL screw up lots of things. I wanted to buy Bulletstorm oh hey, region lock, batman arkham asylum, region lock. So many years down the road and we're still seeing the same handful of countries that are officially supported. My money's not good enough for them?

I have no intention of making another account for GFWL if that's the suggested workaround. I have too many accounts to remember; Origin, Steam, GFWL, GoG, etc. Steam aint the perfect thing out there but it's the best so far because they keep improving while GFWL improve by let's say 10% of what Steam did. (Ghost mic on dow2:cr anyone?)

Steam's policy of not letting users sharing account have its advantages and disadvantages though its disadvantages heavily outweights it. But when you look from a security standpoint, it's valid in such a way that only you alone have access to it so you would not have to worry about 3rd party screwing up your account such as VAC ban (nothing to do with your bro, just from a security point of view)

Namco Bandai published The Witcher 2 and Ridge Racer on the PC so its safe to say that they have some knowledge about the PC market. Relic guys did state that Steamworks>GFWL for their game and it helped alot with Retribution. How could every game developer/publisher not know this news when it was publish throughout the internet.

We're not 'threatening' them (though some are), it's just that we want to see this game succeed. A port that happened because of a horde of fans demanded it sounds pretty awesome. We're grateful to them for reaching out to the community and venturing to the PC market. However, most of us see that should they be utilising GFWL, it would dampen their chance of finding much success because of the many problems GFWL have and experienced by many. Sure some would say no steam = no sale, but not releasing your game on Steam as a dev would be quite silly as the consumer base on that platform is currently the largest in the PC gaming market.

Tldr = GFWL sucks, Steam can be sucky at times but the best so far, Steamworks>GFWL, Not threatening just want the game to succeed, Fanboys can be quite stupid

The entire video about the Dark Souls/GFWL PC port matter.

Yes, GFWL's region system is retarded. No other way to put it. It's simply retarded.

I didn't think it through when I wrote my first few lines.
Basically want I want to say is, I don't want this to require Steam to play, as someone who pretty much has a gaming family, that is really annoying.
Darksiders requires Steam. Skyrim requires Steam. DXHR requires Steam. Why? Really, why do I need to attach these games to Steam? I would love it if they provided that as an option but don't force me to use the damn thing, after all, they don't even have online modes dammit. And I know account sharing is not allowed in, well, just about every game lol. They don't want to deal with people complaining that it was their friend/neighbour/cousin/retarded younger sibling that did the stupid thing that caused the ban.

I'll understand if the games have an online mode since buying one game and having two people play online is a serious no-no.

The thing is, if you don't have a family member that shares your account, then you don't know how this feels. And at the same time, GFWL has never denied me access to my games, so I don't really have any problems with the platform.

Seems there is some sort of confusion regarding developer/publisher here. Ridge Racer unbounded was developed by bugbear which is more well known for it's flat out series, they have oodles of experience with online multiplayer. RRU was also developed from day 1 as a multi platform release, therefore it's not surprising for them to have planned for steamworks integration from day 1. Also, in the same way that namco bandai publishes the witcher 2 for cd projekt in some regions and platforms, i don't think you can blame/credit namco bandai for the witcher. What Namco Bandai are doing is putting the code on disc, in a box etc, marketing the game and concluding distribution deals with whoever wants to sell it. That's it.

Dark Souls is developed by From Software, the only other game they ever did that made it to PC was ninja blade which is single player. They are a Japanese Company. The publishing arrangements are complicated in the fact that in Japan the game is actually published independently by From Software and it is only the worldwide release that has been published by Namco Bandai. Japan does not really have a tradition of PC game development. They are only using namco bandai to release worldwide and therefore the decision on what matchmaking code to use is up to From Software. With such a short release window, it's not surprising that they considered GFWL due to its closeness to how xboxlive works - This is a pragmatic decision.

Bulletstorm was a flop on consoles as well. If it was a hit on console, no doubt this unreal engine game would be getting a sequel on all platforms too. Using GFWL as one of the reasons is just scapegoating.

Listen, steam is awesome, i like steam and i use it often. I don't like how they've turned games from a product that was meant to be enjoyed in circumstances such as that highlighted by Hahli9 to a single user non transferable licensed model. What I also don't like is a gabe trooper asking for a signature on a petition threatening steam or no sale. This in no way stops me from buying and enjoying a game that's on steam.

Ultimately, if you choose not to buy DS because it comes with GFWL, that's fine too. After all, you're entitled to vote with your wallet. It just seems to me that making the decision now without even waiting for reviews or customer feedback about how the port has been implemented is a bit foolish.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Apr 14 2012, 12:28 PM

I am assuming you have not played RRU. RRU is also just a port with console issues on the PC version such as 30 fps lock and a strange bug with it's multiplayer system. It wasnt even a good port like Skyrim or Alan Wake to begin with.

As mentioned by indie developers, such as Minmax Games, Steamworks is extremely easy to implement where it only took a week for Minmax to add Steamworks to their almost completed game. From Software has no reason not to choose Steamworks over dreaded GFWL, other than its a bad decision. Even Relic claimed that the porting from GFWL to Steamworks is fairly easy to do and also resulted better sales of the Retribution expansion.

No one's blaming From Software or Namco Bandai for the poor decision. PC gamers wants to see this decision changed before its too late.

There is nothing to do with the similarity of code with xbox LIVE. Alan Wake was a 360 exclusive game but the PC version does not have GFWL at all. Remedy took about 6 months to port the game over, and add PC specific features with some aid from an external studio. In the end, they manage to earn back all their investments for the PC port in a few days.

Why cant From Software do the same as Remedy? Rather than using GFWL, even if PC gamers hates it so much. Then, release Dark Souls with GFWL and could not earn back the money they spent to port the game over. After that, blaming that all PC gamers are pirates while the truth is, their DRM and multiplayer system is unfit for purpose.

Nobody wants to see that happening, which is why almost everyone wants this bad decision with GFWL be changed.

Bulletstorm did even worse on PC than consoles, due to the region lock that GFWL impose on and it's poor reputation that it has been giving since it's launch. Blaming GFWL is not scapegoating in this case, as it is just a terrible DRM and online system by any means that discourage people from buying the game.

I do not see whats wrong with the non transferable model as it is done to increase security of a game. Me and my brother have a Steam account each, and i have no problem getting single player games for 2 separate account as games do not cost that much during Steam sales.

No one is being a Gabe trooper, but PC gamers wants to see Dark Souls to be successful on PC. Putting GFWL is just trying to piss off legitimate owners while restrict the sales to a handful of countries. People are done with GFWL with countless horrible experience with Fallout 3, Dirt series, Dawn of War series and so on. They do not want to see Dark Souls being ruined by GFWL.

Majority of users who used GFWL for a while will know how intrusive or annoying is the system. There is no need for any customers feedback since GFWL is never being improved on. I do not think that the idea of not buying Dark Souls because it has GFWL is a foolish decision. In fact, the idea of ignoring the poor reputation that has been associated with GFWL for years while still buy the game is even more foolish.

The question is, have you even used GFWL? Or you are just looking from the point of view of the well implemented Xbox LIVE? Both GFWL and Xbox LIVE are completely different thing to begin with, except they share the same backend.

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Added on April 14, 2012, 7:33 pm+1 to Total Biscuit. I do agree most of the stuff he said, but i do not agree with the "tolerate GFWL" part. It's a subpar system with no improvements ever made.

No way im gonna spend my money on it, unless there is a huge sale with it.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Apr 14 2012, 07:43 PM

Not played RRU, it's not really my genre. But then again, I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up as an argument for steamworks implementation if you admit that it's not a good port.

Also, I'm not sure why you're bringing up Alan Wake which has zero online multiplayer content. Space Pirates and Zombies is also single player so in the case of remedy and minmax games, all they have to do is make sure the steam achievements pop. Relic made the transition to steam pretty well, but then they've already had their experience with online play on Company of Heroes, they run their own servers and so on so they know what they have to do to get matchmaking and lag free gameplay right.

From Software have no such pc experience, and no experience of working with steam. I sincerely hope that its them handling the port and not some random 3rd party studio. Dark Souls will be peer to peer hosting, a bit like what street fighter does, which is GFWL. It will be anonymous. Getting it to run on steamworks is more than just getting achievements to pop. Maybe you can only see GFWL from the DRM aspect (if this was the only aspect, I would be 100% in agreement with you). For me I see it as a solution to getting the net code and matchmaking right.

Basically, fans wanted it on pc, they're getting it. They're also getting it in August. Changing from GFWL will result in a delay. Simple as that.

Main reason for my rant was "steam or no sale" in the petition. I'm still old fashioned in the sense that as a gamer who's been gaming for 30years+, I like the idea of being able to lend things that i own out, ie books, DVDs, CDs and yes this includes games, so yeah in that sense i don't like what Steam has done to the industry. The original petition was worded really nicely, the current one? not so.

I'm also one of those who've not had any problems on GFWL, I've played online on games like dirt 2, DOW2 and Chaos Rising, Batman AA, SFIV and I can also understand the problems users have with it. However this really is irrelevant to my argument, since I'm just saying that if the reviews come out saying that despite the fact that it's on GFWL it's really good and a user still refuses to get it based on blind hatred or prejudice, there's nothing more i can say

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Apr 14 2012, 08:40 PM

Dark Souls devs say Games for Windows Live discussions are “still ongoing”



PCG
looks like they're listening

i think many of us dont mind the game being pushed back by weeks or months as long they polished it well

I read somewhere that Namco Bandai has not signed the contract with GFWL yet. They are still considering the options.

The bad thing will be, Dark Souls will be a straight port from console with bare bones PC features. Thats not gonna change, and From Software admit it.

Push it back to next year, i dont mind waiting as long as the PC version is gold. Without GFWL. And console players must have those PC "exclusive" DLCs by a free patch or a paid DLC. Love the honesty of From Software so far. If the final game is using Steamworks, i'll get it day 1.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Apr 18 2012, 09:03 PM

Microsoft's response to the petition

Microsoft “continues to support” Games for Windows Live



PCG

This babe gonna release on 12th August! Damn. Cant wait!

Kotaku

GFWL is totally going to ruin the game.

am I doing this right?