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 Dark Souls on PC, You want this don't you?

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Kidicarus
post Jan 7 2012, 06:38 PM

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I personally have my doubts about playing dark souls on pc. From software and namco bandai do not have much experience with pc network multiplayer, I fear that should a pc version appear it would be filled with hacked characters who would just grief you in game.

While this game can be played offline, it's best experienced online and you cannot opt out of pvp. The online gameplay is also based entirely on anonymous matchmaking which means you are not supposed team up with friends easily. In this type of situation, hacked characters really spoil the game. On consoles, hacked characters are far rarer although they still do exist.

Having played dark souls to completion on the xbox, i have to say this is probably the best "pc game(that's not on the pc)" that ticks all the correct "hardcore" boxes on consoles.
Kidicarus
post Jan 9 2012, 12:39 PM

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QUOTE(hakimix @ Jan 7 2012, 07:45 PM)
Which is why we need this to be put on the platform it belongs to. Yes I think we have those problems of matchmaking, hacks and the possibility of shoddy console port. For matchmaking I don't whether they will continue with this or different type of hosting. With the right anti-cheats, it should cut down those hacks by considerable amount I guess. For one I think this game deserves more audiences. With added moddability it will even better I think.
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If one of the features you're asking for is the ability to mod the game, then you don't really know what you're asking for. This is a game that has to be experienced they way the developer intended. Sure, you'd get improved textures running at native 1920x1200 but there are so many more ways that this game would be broken.

Potential areas for modding because these are the areas that pc users will always whine about:

Auto savingso if you make a mistake you can't undo it. Kill an important npc, and you're stuck with a choice of pressing on knowing the game will be much harder or starting again. No respecs so again you're stuck if you mess up.
Death causes respawn at checkpoints, surely there should be a quicksave/quickload button. Except for the fact that every time you die, you are supposed to learn a lesson.
You can't pause, so if you get into a battle with the wrong equipment you're stuck unless you can manage your inventory without dying.
Limited FOV? yep the game is supposed to be claustrophobic.
No easy matchmaking with friends? Yep you're supposed to go into battle with/against strangers.
Persistant online connection even if you're just playing single player? Yep, because your actions can also effect another persons game.
No minimap so too bad if you get lost.

Mod any of the above and you'll just break the game.

Sure Dark Souls deserves a larger audience, it's just that it's my personal feeling that the pc community doesn't deserve this game.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Jan 9 2012, 12:39 PM
Kidicarus
post Apr 13 2012, 10:56 AM

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They end the petition with "Steam or no sale"? So they want to replace one platform/DRM with another to please some steam fanboys? I mean GFWL is not great for the most part but i think the game will play fine irrespectively.

The reason they're using GFWL is most likely due to the fact that it's coming out in 4 months time and they do not want to rewrite the matchmaking net code from scratch. It would be relatively easy for them to port the net code from xboxlive to GFWL.

Online multiplayer in dark souls does not use your friends list or voice chat, co-op and pvp combat worked really well on xboxlive even when i knew that most of the people i was playing with and against were not local.

However, what's worrying is anti-cheat protection (or the lack of) in GFWL particularly save game hacking.
Kidicarus
post Apr 13 2012, 12:39 PM

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QUOTE(Hornet @ Apr 13 2012, 12:21 PM)
Try buying Batman AC from Malaysia online, and let me know what you think of the problem  smile.gif

Hint: It uses GFWL. Not supported in Malaysia
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Well it's not available on steam. but what about impulsedriven http://www.impulsedriven.com/batmanac or gamersgate http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-BMAC/batman-arkham-city ? Wouldn't that be steam's fault that it's not available here?

Having said that, I've not actually tried buying from them, all i know is they don't give me the "sorry not available in your area" error. I do actually emphatise, not having malaysia as an actual supported region really does suck, as a gamer, a quick google will tell you how to bypass that.

I'm fine with people complaining about GFWL, a lot of the times it's justified, the end-user experience is rubbish. But saying "I want steam or no buy" instead is just fanboyism.
Kidicarus
post Apr 13 2012, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Hornet @ Apr 13 2012, 01:59 PM)
Its it wrong for me to want to keep all my games under the same library for the purpose of convenience?  smile.gif See its about having options that I can choose from. You may be fine getting your games from a dozen different places, but I don't like doing that, having multiple accounts here and there for a handful of games.
Regardless, the reason why its not on Steam is because GFWL is not available here. If you're in Singapore, you'll be able to see it.

BTW, didn't some users had issues activating their Batman AC cd key?

The fact is, GFWL does NOT support Malaysia. Register an account there and you won't even have the option for that. There's absolutely no reason for this. If you want to push that piece of crap, at least make it available worldwide.
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I'm not sure what your point is since I'm pretty much in agreement with you here in regards to regional restrictions sucking. Whether it's steam, origin or gfwl, any form of regional restriction is bad for consumer. If you refuse to play a game because it's not on steam, the only person losing out is you.

My main problem with the new petition is still the "steam or no sale", and since this is about choice, what about those of us who don't want to buy the game on steam? I'm not sure how consumers these days have been indoctrinated into accepting monopolies.

GFWL is not great to use, i think most people are in agreement there. The game itself will be fine, if they can prevent hackers and cheats.
Kidicarus
post Apr 13 2012, 05:23 PM

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QUOTE(Currylaksa @ Apr 13 2012, 05:09 PM)
I think the main problem with GFWL is that Microsoft isn't really focused on this platform, so it might quietly die away someday. They are mostly devoted to supporting XBL.
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That's the thing, they messed up on it in the first place so it has been dying slowly on life support for the longest time. However you're definitely right that they're focusing on xboxlive, particularly windows 8 integration.

Back to the game though, I'm just going to keep harping on the fact that they need to get the anonymous matchmaking right. GFWL can definitely do this, but it would mean having to put up with all the crap that comes along with it.
Kidicarus
post Apr 13 2012, 07:25 PM

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QUOTE(Currylaksa @ Apr 13 2012, 07:14 PM)
You should just play the PS3 version though... you can find it very heavily discounted by now.

Japanese have a pretty bad record at late ports to PC.
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Played and completed on 360. tongue.gif Apparently it suffered less slowdown than the PS3 version in online play although this is just from lurking in the ps3 subforums.

I must say i really enjoyed the experience and I'm willing to give this game another go on the pc especially if they're adding new (high-res) content.

@hornet, I really wouldn't recommend this game to a fence sitter as i don't really want my name cursed to hell and back. PC is really an afterthought for this game.
Kidicarus
post Apr 14 2012, 12:27 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Apr 14 2012, 01:47 AM)
Putting GFWL with a good game will make it a much more frustrating experience for the gamer. As someone who had a lot of problems with GFWL, no way i'll stomach it again as the problems i had is far more than all the problems Steam, Origin, Ubisoft DRM combined.

Namco Bandai manage to release Ridge Racer Unbounded PC with Steamworks, and what makes it so difficult to release Dark Souls with Steamworks too? Since both games are by the same publisher.

Steam is not perfect by any means, especially the offline mode is difficult to use and it's ridiculous policy in banning people. I had the redownloading problem and i hate it with my guts too. And the problem with sharing account, its you yourself who got into this problem. Not the platform's problem and by Steam's EULA, you are not suppose to transfer your account to anyone else. Also, comparing all the Steam problems to GFWL, Steam is by far better and easier to use than GFWL which manage to be preferred service by most gamer.

At the same time, i would say, look into the unhappy Dark Souls PC gamer's thoughts. These people want Dark Soul to be a commercial success on PC and GFWL is preventing the game from being successful. Bulletstorm was a flop on PC partly due to GFWL with it's infamous bad multiplayer NAT and region locked for most countries in the world. How are you gonna achieve commercial success if you confine your game to that selected 35+ countries chose by Microsoft? Or on a DRM/multiplayer system that barely changed since it's launch? Even the original petition had a mock up Steam store page for Dark Souls where it could be a sign where consumers wants a Steamworks version.

I dont see this as an entitlement issue, as if the product is unfit for it's purpose, such as a game that comes with GFWL that has a very high chance of preventing you from playing your game, why should anyone buy it? Consumers need to have a good product with no glaring defects, which GFWL has been failing to provide it.

I made my stand, if Dark Souls comes with GFWL, no sale for me.
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Seems there is some sort of confusion regarding developer/publisher here. Ridge Racer unbounded was developed by bugbear which is more well known for it's flat out series, they have oodles of experience with online multiplayer. RRU was also developed from day 1 as a multi platform release, therefore it's not surprising for them to have planned for steamworks integration from day 1. Also, in the same way that namco bandai publishes the witcher 2 for cd projekt in some regions and platforms, i don't think you can blame/credit namco bandai for the witcher. What Namco Bandai are doing is putting the code on disc, in a box etc, marketing the game and concluding distribution deals with whoever wants to sell it. That's it.

Dark Souls is developed by From Software, the only other game they ever did that made it to PC was ninja blade which is single player. They are a Japanese Company. The publishing arrangements are complicated in the fact that in Japan the game is actually published independently by From Software and it is only the worldwide release that has been published by Namco Bandai. Japan does not really have a tradition of PC game development. They are only using namco bandai to release worldwide and therefore the decision on what matchmaking code to use is up to From Software. With such a short release window, it's not surprising that they considered GFWL due to its closeness to how xboxlive works - This is a pragmatic decision.

Bulletstorm was a flop on consoles as well. If it was a hit on console, no doubt this unreal engine game would be getting a sequel on all platforms too. Using GFWL as one of the reasons is just scapegoating.

Listen, steam is awesome, i like steam and i use it often. I don't like how they've turned games from a product that was meant to be enjoyed in circumstances such as that highlighted by Hahli9 to a single user non transferable licensed model. What I also don't like is a gabe trooper asking for a signature on a petition threatening steam or no sale. This in no way stops me from buying and enjoying a game that's on steam.

Ultimately, if you choose not to buy DS because it comes with GFWL, that's fine too. After all, you're entitled to vote with your wallet. It just seems to me that making the decision now without even waiting for reviews or customer feedback about how the port has been implemented is a bit foolish.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Apr 14 2012, 12:28 PM
Kidicarus
post Apr 14 2012, 08:38 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Apr 14 2012, 07:21 PM)
I am assuming you have not played RRU. RRU is also just a port with console issues on the PC version such as 30 fps lock and a strange bug with it's multiplayer system. It wasnt even a good port like Skyrim or Alan Wake to begin with.

As mentioned by indie developers, such as Minmax Games, Steamworks is extremely easy to implement where it only took a week for Minmax to add Steamworks to their almost completed game. From Software has no reason not to choose Steamworks over dreaded GFWL, other than its a bad decision. Even Relic claimed that the porting from GFWL to Steamworks is fairly easy to do and also resulted better sales of the Retribution expansion.

No one's blaming From Software or Namco Bandai for the poor decision. PC gamers wants to see this decision changed before its too late.
There is nothing to do with the similarity of code with xbox LIVE. Alan Wake was a 360 exclusive game but the PC version does not have GFWL at all. Remedy took about 6 months to port the game over, and add PC specific features with some aid from an external studio. In the end, they manage to earn back all their investments for the PC port in a few days.

Why cant From Software do the same as Remedy? Rather than using GFWL, even if PC gamers hates it so much. Then, release Dark Souls with GFWL and could not earn back the money they spent to port the game over. After that, blaming that all PC gamers are pirates while the truth is, their DRM and multiplayer system is unfit for purpose.

Nobody wants to see that happening, which is why almost everyone wants this bad decision with GFWL be changed.
Bulletstorm did even worse on PC than consoles, due to the region lock that GFWL impose on and it's poor reputation that it has been giving since it's launch. Blaming GFWL is not scapegoating in this case, as it is just a terrible DRM and online system by any means that discourage people from buying the game.
I do not see whats wrong with the non transferable model as it is done to increase security of a game. Me and my brother have a Steam account each, and i have no problem getting single player games for 2 separate account as games do not cost that much during Steam sales.

No one is being a Gabe trooper, but PC gamers wants to see Dark Souls to be successful on PC. Putting GFWL is just trying to piss off legitimate owners while restrict the sales to a handful of countries. People are done with GFWL with countless horrible experience with Fallout 3, Dirt series, Dawn of War series and so on. They do not want to see Dark Souls being ruined by GFWL.
Majority of users who used GFWL for a while will know how intrusive or annoying is the system. There is no need for any customers feedback since GFWL is never being improved on. I do not think that the idea of not buying Dark Souls because it has GFWL is a foolish decision. In fact, the idea of ignoring the poor reputation that has been associated with GFWL for years while still buy the game is even more foolish.

The question is, have you even used GFWL? Or you are just looking from the point of view of the well implemented Xbox LIVE? Both GFWL and Xbox LIVE are completely different thing to begin with, except they share the same backend.
Not played RRU, it's not really my genre. But then again, I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up as an argument for steamworks implementation if you admit that it's not a good port.

Also, I'm not sure why you're bringing up Alan Wake which has zero online multiplayer content. Space Pirates and Zombies is also single player so in the case of remedy and minmax games, all they have to do is make sure the steam achievements pop. Relic made the transition to steam pretty well, but then they've already had their experience with online play on Company of Heroes, they run their own servers and so on so they know what they have to do to get matchmaking and lag free gameplay right.

From Software have no such pc experience, and no experience of working with steam. I sincerely hope that its them handling the port and not some random 3rd party studio. Dark Souls will be peer to peer hosting, a bit like what street fighter does, which is GFWL. It will be anonymous. Getting it to run on steamworks is more than just getting achievements to pop. Maybe you can only see GFWL from the DRM aspect (if this was the only aspect, I would be 100% in agreement with you). For me I see it as a solution to getting the net code and matchmaking right.

Basically, fans wanted it on pc, they're getting it. They're also getting it in August. Changing from GFWL will result in a delay. Simple as that.

Main reason for my rant was "steam or no sale" in the petition. I'm still old fashioned in the sense that as a gamer who's been gaming for 30years+, I like the idea of being able to lend things that i own out, ie books, DVDs, CDs and yes this includes games, so yeah in that sense i don't like what Steam has done to the industry. The original petition was worded really nicely, the current one? not so.

I'm also one of those who've not had any problems on GFWL, I've played online on games like dirt 2, DOW2 and Chaos Rising, Batman AA, SFIV and I can also understand the problems users have with it. However this really is irrelevant to my argument, since I'm just saying that if the reviews come out saying that despite the fact that it's on GFWL it's really good and a user still refuses to get it based on blind hatred or prejudice, there's nothing more i can say sad.gif

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Apr 14 2012, 08:40 PM
Kidicarus
post Sep 10 2012, 10:27 PM

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Or you could buy a copy from a real life shop. My copy came with a pretty nice art book, poster (which i've not bothered unfolding), making of DVD (which i'm never going to watch) and the OST for about RM145.

I'm a lvl 5 thief currently at the capra demon. I'm seeing how far I can get without levelling up.

 

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