The typical progression for an overweight male is to lose your visceral fat first. That is the "gut" fat. It is under your ab muscles, around your organs. That fat is easy to lose and makes a huge difference in your waist line. It is an exciting time because you normally need to get new pants, you look a lot better, feel better, and get lots of compliments.

Next you start losing subcutaneous fat. This is the fat right below your skin. It is sort of like a fat wet suit. This fat is harder to lose and takes a long, long time. You have way more of this fat than you think you do. You are probably here. In the 13-20% body fat range.

When you lose 5lbs of this fat, it comes off from all over your body. So visually, there really isn't a big difference. You just get a little bit smaller. Your arms, chest, legs, back... everything just keeps getting smaller. Your ab fat and love handles get smaller too, but they seem to lose much more slowly than the other areas.

You actually look worse because you don't fill out your clothes like you used to. Your arms are just as strong, but they have less fat and look smaller. You don't get very many compliments losing this fat. In fact you will probably get people telling you that you are losing too much weight and you look worse.

Eventually, you start getting a little definition. Commonly your shoulders will start cutting up first. This is when the fat wet suit gets thin enough that you can start seeing muscle definition though it. It is an exciting time, but you still will not get many compliments because you will be a lot smaller than when you started. At this point you will probably think you look better with your shirt off than on. That is because you will look better/bigger with your shirt off.

The last fat you lose is the stubborn fat. It is normally around your lower abs and love handles. This fat is the hardest to lose. By this time most of your face fat will be gone and everybody will start thinking you are over doing it. They remember the fat guy and you are going to look really different. Your friends will be planing an intervention and swear you have an eating disorder. If you take your shirt off, they will go, "ohhh... wow... I wasn't expecting that. What diet are you on?"

Finally you have 6-pack abs and look fantastic as long as you have your shirt off. With your shirt on, you look tiny. This is when you figure out that:
1. Low body fat is freaking cold.
2. Most people have a nice fat layer to keep them warm and like going to cold places.
3. People are poor judges of lean body composition. They think you are way less muscular than you are when you are dressed. They think you are way more muscular than you are when you are not. You are probably the same way.
4. Unless you have fit friends, you will probably never go to places where people take their shirts off.
5. It is difficult to put on muscle when you are sub 10% body fat.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Dec 20 2011, 03:54 PM

U r soo..rite, I cudn't understand wat's been happening to my bod, until now. So how do we overcum situation #5 - put the pedal to the metal?

It's difficult but not impossible.

I've seen this statement appear in a few sites and articles before: "The supposed best range for muscle gains is in the 10-17% bodyfat range." If you can stay relatively lean, I think you'll get some decent gains. Too little or too much bodyfat, and your gains will slow down, IMO.

I'd be lucky to get under 15% before 2013. This dieting is hell. And the progress is slow. Very, very slow

Yes it is VERY cold to have sub-10 bodyfat percentage...ahhaha...
i cant stand in cinema or shopping complex very long. always have to pee


Chow

Bro,mind sharing your diet plan ?

i was gonna reply u, but I'm in the middle of my exams now. sorry about that. I have a whole weeks worth of my diet in my journal. I haven been training for over a week now, but what I have been doing is keeping my caloric intake fairly low. I need to study and I'm taking this as a deload week of sort.

Oh no prob mate. All the best with your exams.

I'm cold almost all the time. It sucks.

sigh...
i sweat all the time....
so sad....

Folks, feeling hot or cold, mainly has to do with nerve cell receptors sending the message over to your brain and its reaction and adaptation. One's physiological control plays its part as well, more than the amount of fat a person has.

This can be easily tested, by taking a person with same weight and height to a cold place, where one person would feel cold and the other would be fine.

we noe,
we jz trolling around nia....

Have you ever hit sub 10 bodyfat bro? Trust me it's cold.

nope, but then couldnt it be just you?

My friend is sub 10, and while I was in US, some of my gym friends and my trainer as well, who was sub 10, some feel cold and some dont.

Yes I do agree you do loose some insulation factor, but biologically I dont think that plays a major role.

Sorry, if I sounded serious , just sharing what I know, thats all.

this question very cruel

i always feel sick when I am cutting. I also look sick. It is like my body is not agreeing with me to get any leaner.

About the cold, i dont pay much attention to this. Maybe the next cut i will see if i feel colder at the end of the cut.

I am fat and easily get cold! XD

Imo both of you might be right. No doubt having a layer of fat insulates you from cold, but humans can get acclimatized to low temperatures as well, regardless of body fat %.

I've reached the peak of kinabalu before sunrise before and I could barely hold anything from the shivering and was numb everywhere. Was wearing winter gloves and double insulated jacket too. Right beside me are a few ang mohs not even wearing gloves, minimal winter clothing and they are happily snaping pics.

I'm sub 10. At work, I wear 3 layers of clothes. Damn cold

no lah, I dont think its cruel, its a valid question

Doctor pun human jugak, we are all bound to err and mistakes, by that I dont mean he is wrong and I'm right or vice-versa. I just put forth my POV to be discussed and debated....thats all

This post has been edited by VeeJay: Dec 21 2011, 01:13 PM

Of course it does. DL used to be bulky with way higher BF%. he'd know the diffference. WHat are u even talkin about? His comparison is to within oneself. when one has higher BF compared to when the same person have lower BF.

u can't compare person A and B for this matter.

i used to be leaner with much low BF compared to now. and trust it was f***in cold. i lived in the US too. so i know what i'm talkin bout. but now, that i'm more bulky with higher BF, it's freakin hot all the time.

Lol some of you fellas are missing the point here. It doesn't matter if you're hot or cold, or lukewarm or boiling. Why argue semantics?

The point is, low bodyfat is not easy to achieve and most people underestimate theirs. Including me. I thought i was around 8% but calipers and some electronic gadget thingie measured mine at 9%.

So I is very sad.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Dec 21 2011, 06:37 PM

dont be sad. cut more .... !!

Bleh. It's annoying.

wah, 9 is f***in low ready leh.. anymore that this ur body will probably go on catabolic state. maintain la.. maybe put on a lil bit of fat to about 10 or 11. u'd still look good man..

Sorry for asking again. How do you guys usually get the measurement of your BF?

Lol, tell me why that at 9% bodyfat I'm Hammer incline benching 355lbs for reps and pulling up weighted BW 72kg + extra 70kg tied to my body? If I was catabolic, I wouldn't be progressing and it's been going up for the past 4 months.

Crap. u got ultra good genetics n ur knowledge in science is a boon also.shyte. im still at the third stage i.e. the stubborn fat.crap.

U cut more im sure u will look ultra good.

This post has been edited by gtoforce: Dec 22 2011, 01:44 AM

My genetics are so so lousy. You have no idea. But KashKarun's concern is noted. There's a fine line to culking and the moment my strength decreases, i start bulking aggressively again.

I totally agree

It's not a easy road to achieve low BF with visible six packs for me. Clean diet, cardio and own lunch box and snacks to work

The further i cut, i look more skinny, maybe i do not have much muscle mass at the first place. So now i give up already...haha, girlfriend keep complaining that i look skinny. Back to normal malaysian diet, my waist increased from 30 inch to 34 inch....

Ooops. that Kash Karun's post was mine actually. didn't realise my cousin has singed in on my pc and left it. lol.

DL,

U have bad genetics? i seriously doubt that. i'd say my genetics in bb isn't that good. u know i started training when i was 16 and till 28(2 years ago) i was all natural. of course there was progress. but the process was rather slow and was halted at one point. i would say i wasn't consistenly training for all that 12 years. i wud say effective 8 to 9 years would be a correct math.

i know i'm deviating from the point. but bare with me.
this is how i looked after 8 years of training.




pics was taken in Miami.

only recently i managed to put on some real mass to the muscle.

Lol. This is not an insult but the reason your muscles don't show is cos of high bodyfat. It's not rocket science.

And yes my genetics are worse than yours.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Dec 22 2011, 03:36 PM

in what way? care to explain?

No bicep peak, high later insertions, naturally skinny, puts on bodyfat easily if I slack, lose strength way faster than some trainees if I don't train ofyebx high calf insertion points, list goes on.

And yet you look so bloody impressive. Genetics is a factor but the key factor is your heart. How bad you want it

you look impressive man.

This is poor genetics with low bodyfat.

Back RELAXED



and this is poor genetics for biceps, just that the bodyfat is relatively low so it shows a bit



This post has been edited by darklight79: Dec 23 2011, 08:22 PM

Dude, poor genetics ? thats a joke man. You look superb man. Add a bit of thickness and you're great man. Thats you in the picture right ? i guess i have seen you training in Fitness First if i am right.

No I train at TF, if you saw me at FF it was probably at One Mont Kiara or Curve on a guest pass. Bro, I have poor to average genetics trust me. It's only when i started cutting things came out. Lol. Most people don't realize they're carrying too much fat. They see a bit of abs and then they tell themselves "oh wow I'm cut" but it's far from it.
Now that I've hit sub 10% or maybe slightly less, I seriously have a healthy respect for those natural competitors who have to diet down to 6 plus %.

And believe me it's not easy getting to this bf% while dieting with cheeseburgers, banana leaf rice and spaghetti bolognaise.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Dec 24 2011, 03:32 AM

Guess i saw you in curve. Agreed man, its not easy for natural bodybuilders. I just wish my cutting goes well. If it doesnt, i dont know what to say .

bo.3 - poor judgement, indeed it is so true. I was absent from going to gym night, and just aft a few months or may be a year, i went once and one of the guy which i dont know at all came approached me, saying "you were big right last time? " i was like yeah, at the tummy.

Lol now Golden Retriever shuts up when he sees me train.

ahhahahah good dog is the golden retrieval. Should give him some pedigree shake.

TELL ME ABOUT IT

---

Added on December 25, 2011, 11:05 am

This post has been edited by LadyVanity: Dec 25 2011, 11:05 AM

having long bicep insertions isn't bad srsly. i myself have very short biceps and trust me, it looks small as poop unflexed, only good thing is its peak when you do a front double bicep. i too have high calf insertion, low traps, very high lats, strong ecto. your genetics isn't all that bad but you surely worked your way through to where you are now.

Myself believe there must be certain strong point from every individual body.pure ecto can stay lean almost all the time and get into condition very fast.compare bantam weight and heavy weight you will see.

this is what exactly happen to my body. I was at 66kg, 23% bodyfat (skinny fat) in June 2011 (using Tanita machine in fitness concept), and i took care of my diet and did weight training (5x5), bodyweight (CC) and cardio (jump rope). Nov 2011 i've reached 59kg, 19% bodyfat (using the same machine) and my tummy getting noticeably smaller (in the morning). and my working shirt seems loose, pants like baggy, not fit like last time. people around me says i'm skinny and overdoing it, some says i looked sick. but i gain a lot of strength and feel alot stronger and agile. btw, i will continue my 5x5 by 1st of Jan (stopped for 3 months to give way to CC) to gain muscle.

59kg? How tall are you just wondering.

aren't 5x5 meant for strength ie starting strength. its more of a bulking program, isn't it? calorie surplus, linear progress? correct me if im wrong.

i'm just 1.65cm, very small frame and bones, bad genetics, typical malaysian skinny fat

yeap, its more to strength with some muscle gain, and yeah, linear progress. calorie surplus...hmm, im not eating like a bodybuilder, i just eat according to my estimated BMR..

This post has been edited by ApeKG: Dec 29 2011, 08:15 AM

I vary between 9-11% body fat and have visible abs @ 74kgs (give or take 1 kg water weight).

Yep, low fat is cold.
Low fat is also far weaker and your joints take somewhat longer to recover from heavy weights. Ie, I can lift more if I was 78-80kgs at around 15% body fat than I can now despite similar amount of LBM.

I think 13% is a healthy rate for most human males to be honest, except you just won't have siiiick abzzz.

Hi guys, noob question here..

How does one determine BF%? I am 21 and just starting to hit the gym at SS2..

bodyfat calipers (skinfold method) or by machine with the former being much more accurate

Oh, manual's more accurate than machine? Thanks.. do you know where to get ahold of one of these calipers?

Ego Nutrition. Accufitness bodyfat calipers.

HOWEVER these are not easy to use. The simplest method? Use scales and the mirror to track your progress. Now people will tell you "its not accurate" (it isn't) however, unless you are severely overweight you will not see major reduction using the calipers week-to-week. Also, because fat does not reduce "evenly" over the body, you will frequently ask yourself why you are not losing stomach fat even though your bodyfat % may be moving down for the past few weeks.

After all, unless you are going for a BB competition the main reason for losing bodyfat is looking good. Thus, use the mirror and scale (should be moving downwards, but not too quickly) for tracking progress. Typically for majority fat loss and not LBM loss, you should be losing only around 0.5-0.7kg a week. If it moves faster than that you are losing LBM (muscle mass mostly) which means you need a better diet. If you lose slower than that, its still alright, as long as the scale is trending downwards.

Losing weight too fast is worse than too slow. Lose too much LBM and it is really difficult to regain plus slows your body metabolism, which has bad long term effects.......

Most beginners (myself included, few yrs back) make the stupid mistake that they should lose before they gain. Don't! Gain as much muscle mass as you can first and don't worry about a small tummy. When you have significant amount of muscle mass, then losing the extra fat while retaining LBM will be much MUCH easier.

This post has been edited by DJJD: Jan 4 2012, 11:29 PM

Can I know what the way lower our body fat percent? I am 176cm,69kg,17.5%bf..and my goad is to hit 12% bf
I eat pretty clean with little vege and do cardio once a week..Any suggestion?

1) with that height and weight, if u manage to reduce your bf, u'll be a lean scrawny guy.

2) cardio once a week is no go. atleast 3 times a week. 4 is better. and also depends on how intense is your cardio.

3) eat clean... elaborate clean. just curious.


just a tip. set a goal and work towards your goal. be specific in what you do to achieve your goal. for instance, although i do not condone ur goal, the best way to achieve it is to do HIIT 3-4 times weekly.

- if your HIIT training consist of cardio(running, swimming), you may lose that fat n achieve ur goal.
- but if your training consist of circuit training(HIIT style), you may still loose that fat and as a bi-product, you may gain some muscle.

thanks..Great suggestion..Since you said you don't agree with my goal, can you tell me what should I really do now with detail?

Hi, just a word of encouragement for those who wants to stay lean all year round Yes, it's not an easy task to get to 6ish but it's not that difficult as well. Patience is always the key word. I always preach the same thing over and over, to get a nice cut with an obvious 4/6/8 packs, one gotta change a lifestyle, it's a commitment. Personally I don't really believe much in "diet" because the term itself relates to a certain "period" of time.

Cheers!

once i feel cool/cold I just think

then my body will generate more heat and feel warmth again

this is mental power, like some mountain monk power...u put wet towel on their body in d midnite, it gets dried within few hours ...they dont have high% of bf, anything, just mind power

One point to add, low bf makes you look younger as well. look at DL, looks like early 20+++. :-P.

your point invalid yoo

low fat doesnt make one looks younger, from far his skin is stretched due to muscle developed but on macro scale, i doubt low bf makes him maintain the 'softness' young skin looks
and it's edited pic LOL

imo, judging from his face, he is nowhere looks like early 20s, more like his username indicated, in his 30s

there is no point go beyond less than 10% bf either, unless u are in bodybuilding competition
less than 10% is unhealthy already
less than 10% is insufficient for normal body function properly
hence forget about building more muscle, it very unlikely it could

it doesnt look like less than 10% to me, compare to pictures of 10% other bodybuilders shown in bb.com
their veins is more visible when they reach 10% and less

and naturally I dont think it is achievable without drugs that short-cutting our body metabolism rate to burn off the fat
and anabolic steroid to boost the hormones hence the muscle build up or just only to maintain it


and pretty sure for females, only who consumes drugs can achieve this low in bb-ing

hullos idiot. back to troll again? the other thread still requires your attention

just because u can't achieve low bf, that doesn't mean it can't be achieved naturally. it's such a pity u resort to bro sciences to comfort yourself. srs

and as for all the LOLs, u seem to be enjoying all the brosciences too. it's hard not to pity ppl who r in constant denial. tsk tsk tsk

it's unrealistic for a non full time athlete to achieve such low bf with a muscular build

because of the metabolism rate and muscle building (bulking and cutting ) ratio

the bf % will be up and down

bf and muscle has it own equilibrium ratio it's inter related regardless of how to adjust ur meal

u cannot build/maintain muscle without bf(10% or less) naturally

sound like u could achieve it naturally

mind u show us how ?

ur detailed explanation and calculation on the muscle gain and fat loss per week/day/month of ur none 'bro science' explanation pls

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2684147/+0&#entry57879331

conclusion: butthurt troll is butthurt.

This post has been edited by mikehuan: Jan 27 2013, 08:22 PM

Guy, enough of it.

Come on, you are demotivating peope trying to achieve low bf naturally with muscular build. It is difficult but it is achievable naturally, all depends on genetics, diet and training, and of course good discipline and patient.

How do you define muscular build? We are not trying to achieve muscular build like bodybuilder wat.

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=2683501&hl

DL already highlighted the matter. answering him merely fuels the trolling. call him an idiot and move on.

I met him in midvalley few days ago
he definitely looks like in 20's age
don't be silly

I bet ladyvanity and pedro that those've met him few times can be prove that

anddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

why people cnanot hit under 10% naturally ? : o

This post has been edited by theCrab: Jan 28 2013, 12:17 AM

Yes, there's this little known concept called evaporation.

so obvious...troll

This post has been edited by kicksense: Jan 28 2013, 01:16 AM

lololol. nice one dan. thats golden

as if low bf is good LOL
I want to point out that extremely low bf is unhealthy
if anyone wants to jeopardize their good heath and comfort, in exchange of low bf( 10% and less), go ahead.

achievable how ?

10% and less bf is in deficits range for muscle growth or just maintaining big build of muscle
it may naturally achievable in short term, few day or few weeks or so
before the muscle starts losing/shirking, till like anorexia patients

analogy again
bodybuilding with low bf is like ur car going up genting without good engine performance

essential/saturated fat % in body is like fuel in car
ur car stop climbing when u cut off the fuel...it may not roll downhill, shrink in muscle ..instantly
but it's just about time when the momentum ran out and start accelerating downhill.




if u cant differentiate a middle aged guy
and 20s young adult, then what is there to debate ?

if u want to prove he as if he stops aging since his early 20s then show which features he has that showing he indeed looks like in 20s.
else, i wont want to figure what gayshit perspective u have to him


refer to post above



cave in the midnite nite is high in humidity and low in temperature, without external heat, it wont be dried till the late morning.

the point is, the monk can generate excess warm( proven by IR temperature sense camera) to dry up the towel

This post has been edited by GodTier: Jan 29 2013, 01:19 AM

Ignore...

Can you show the proof? And no, I don't see the video yet.

to others yes.

because u are at least 30% bf, so I dont want to discuss low bf with u
no hard feeling

so dont quote me in future

cheer

Hi GTier, if you are not in your sub-10, I think you have better kept those words you uttered for yourself though I can understand there's a freedom of speech. Maybe you have good intention, that's I'm not sure but I don't agree with your statement without drugs, we can't go sub-10, that's just your own opinion. If you do not have the knowledge in science, not general science, to back up your statement, go sit for ACE, CSCS then further studies in ACSM.

You..... don't be an idiot. I have pretty high respect for you but there is a general consensus among the regulars here about this GodTier fool. IGNORE the troll. IGNORE! You will only feed him. He's the type which doesn't do research, spews absolute nonsense from his mouth and very highly likely works out maybe a bit, has possibly a slightly above average physique but nothing impressive and is butt hurt when he encounters physiques on a forum which is way better than his.

GodTier's silly little appeal at Helpdesk wasn't successful. The admins graciously ruled in our favor. And the guy is pissed off, fuming and foaming at the mouth. Imagine a mangy rabid dog with all bark and no bite. Kinda easy no?

This post has been edited by darklight79: Jan 29 2013, 09:20 AM

Plus hes an idiot. Stuff he spews out are pure nonsense I dont know why u guys layan him so much.


Dont argue with idiots, they will bring you down to their level. This fella seriously take the idiot cake of the year and its still January.

Remember when you called him out for his pic? He made an excuse. Heh. They always do.

Tbh I find his excuse weird. Those with ink, my friends that have them anyways have absolutely no qualms to show off their ink. Eager to do it even.

Expected la. Knowing the fella hes probably gonna steal one from the net

I was...... really temped to unblock him y'know. So that i could flame him. Lucky i didn't. If i did, lol, i dunno if wkkay would still rule in our favor. I'm so proud of my self restraint (yeah right). It's just that I've come to a point where simple minded people just don't exactly irk me anymore unless they say something particularly stupid here. But GodTier is another story. I don't know how to categorize him. His posts are worse than any newbie I've encountered. At least you know that new members, even those who come in with misconceived perceptions about H & F are open to correction and enlightenment.

That guy doesn't fit anywhere. I don't dislike him, i really feel sorry for him.

Exactly like I said. Ignorance is bliss.

This post has been edited by janson_kaniaz: Jan 29 2013, 11:44 AM

Emm.... , i wonder how the athletes with low bf (without good engine performance) win the games. Maybe next time we could see athletes with 30% bf (more fuel) win marathon...hehe...sorry for my ignorance ya GodTier.

Are you the monk mentioned above anyway?

Translation: "I am a lazy f**ker who is too undisciplined to cut so I make excuses and claim everyone else who isn't lazy and unmotivated is on ROIDZZZZZZZ."

Heh. The guy is so full of nonsense it's hilarious. Let me put is this way. A rare concession. IF one is below 5% bodyfat it's unhealthy. If sub 10% around 7ish % it's still.fine. Difficult to achieve, possible, but you have to do funky things to reach that level. It's not really possible on a normal conventional caloric deficit but doable.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Jan 29 2013, 04:41 PM

ya, i should change my career to work as professional body trainer too lol before i can post in here
sound like u got better scientifically calculation or explanation ...mind to show how ?
do u have those idk exams cert?

i dont think u can explain any lor, not even with bro science or kid science standard ...needless to say professional ur ABC cert standard.

world class athletes train 8 hours per day, at least 5 days per weeks
their bf is nicely utilized with high metabolism rate...all consumptions is calculated and burn out evenly, and they have the luxury of using supplements that may not out in market/ commercially available hence maintaining low bf at certain range isnt problem at all

u see, u make wrong analogy.
marathon is more on endurance/stamina
their goal is run long distance in shortest time, not to have big body, huge strength or what.

a big truck with 100L fuel tank maybe not run longer/faster than hilux with 50L fuel tank.
bcuz the weigh vs power output ratio
big size consumes more energy

which is why often marathon runner are more slim than sprint runner
slim is light weight, less resistance hence more energy efficient hence run longer

it's okay, no hard feeling... ignorance isnt a sin lol =)


i am not monk. but i train myself for the same thing. even though my level hasnt achieve as good as their yet.








actually I came here just to discuss, to test how deep is ur all knowledge.
i rather go to other forums for discussing this matter, in a more biologically sound way.
but never mind, hopefully i can bring up the standard of this section lol

some are saying me talking about bro science but none of u talk in a scientifically way.

what are the funky things ? consuming anabolic steroid ?

why suddenly 7% is okay but 2% less is not ok ?
is ur way of calculating bf so accurate ?

i can go on forever asking, but u couldnt answer.
lol
dont talk none related stuffs so much la
why as elite also like to personal attack lol, just reply point to point la

i dont want reveal my pictures online is my rights
haters gonna hate anyway. what for i jeopardize my shell for online haters disturbing my real life ... just to win an argument online ?...not worth to me

shall i say "ignorance is bliss"
I'm always a silent reader but this just made me......

Lol yeah. GodTier is actually quite a comedian if you come to think of it. Dumb fella. Funny but dumb.

Man...Damn...
As a newbie and a neutral reader, I won't comment on your claims and statements about BB because personally I think you're full of sh*t but that's just me.
My question is - coming in here with your blazing toy guns of knowledge, do you even know the difference between Opinions and Facts? Know the difference. If you have an opinion and seek discussion, a healthy discussion would be in place here. Now you have an opinion which you throw around like the bible and forcing others to accept, then my good man, you become pretty damn annoying.

Also, my dear Troy of Keyboard Kingdom, riddle me this. If your doctor tells you u're sick..and your 80 year old grandma says u're not based on her opinion, who'd u hear?
Apply it here.

Rgds!