also a thrill to see them die too

yes it is!!! omg..

but if it fails. GG.

if failed

A : GG
GG has left the game.

The satisfaction of detonating burrowed banelings in the middle of terran ball is unbearable!

Terran needs 30 APM

Protoss needs 150 APM

Zerg needs 300 APM


This post has been edited by Soul-X: Oct 13 2010, 03:57 AM

myth...
tester have 400apm and still lost...
the only guy to defend a 2gate with 1gate and a marine scv all in cant even break top4...

and cool aka fruity winner of GSL said terran > toss for TvP...
he said ZvT is fine with the tank nerfs lol...

I'm no professional SC2 or SC analyzer, since I just play whenever I have time anyways and is never prepared for the 20-40 mins of stress in game. But I watch a ton of replays, and cast's by professional caster's and analyzers like HD, Husky, Day9, Artosis and etc.

I've followed SC2 ever since the begining, in Beta, didn't play it, because I was too lazy to go through the long arse procedure of downloading and blablabla, even though I had the ori CD key, and also my laptop at that time just sucked for SC2 Beta.

I got SC2 like almost a month after it came out because I was short on cash, and played only about 60-80 league games (forgot sorry).

So here's my thought:

Terren is often regarded as over powered because they're builds are easy, relatively cheaper, high mobility, easy combo's and ton's of tech to use. Their base unit's, the Marine can tech up twice with shields and stim pack and whatever it is I missed out upon. The Marauder, another relatively base unit is BUFF AS SHIT! and can tech up to slow down opponents and also stim pack up. Terren's also have a ton of creative units to use for harrassment like the Banshee's cloacked up, or Hellions, Reapers, bla bla bla.
There's tons of easy opening strategies to cheese with like Reaper harassment, early rush cloaked Banshee harassment, a rushed Hellion harassment, so on and so forth; and not forgetting the ease in mass producing drop ships with Reactor tech and mass marines.
The wide variety of tech and simplicity is one factor, another factor maybe the health of the units and high DPS (Damage Per Second). A 3M or MMM (Marine, Marauder n Medivac) ball is almost impossible to counter when they're rushed out, and you as a player hasn't teched up enough yet.
Terren's area able to drop scans, MULE's to harvest faster and more efficiently, repair injured machines, heal injured units and a whole F*@(#!G ton of other S*#T jsut because the can.

This doesn't mean Terren's aren't subjected to being un-cheesable or unbeatable though.
Terren Pros: Tech, straight forward units & Speed
Cons: Noob Terren, APM thats TOO low.
My recomendation: To be honest, I hate Terrens, just cause =D



Now I'll move on with Zerg, a race I loved and worshiped in SC:BW, when Teren's didn't have THAT MUCH S*@T in their arsenal.
They're highly speedy, easy to build, CHEAP and they really really require a lot less structural income, because all you need are a couple of cheap hatch's and you can create every unit after getting a single unit upgrade structure; eg: one spawning pool can make up to 9999999999999999 Zerglings.
The Overlords however are probably the single most annoying unit to have in my oppinion. They're units of high value because they can be used to scout, drop, and evolve to Overseer's to spot cloaked units, they determine your supply count and can poop creep to block or spawn hidden buildings in some hidden location. BUT THEY'RE SLOW AND WEAK AS HELL! An early marine push can wipe out all the overlords if not placed properly, and supplly block an opponent, and if the opponent hasn't macro-ed up enough yet or is broke, its an auto GG in almost every case I've seen so far. An early Stalker push by Protos can easily supply block a Zerg player as well, or even a Void Ray rush (Yes I'm in bronze, so I've used that kinda cheese before and I know what it does to the enemy =D).
This doens't mean that Zerg's lacking in tech though, this particular race has a counter for almost anything, but it's up to the players creativity. There are a couple of strategies and techniques professional Zerg players have used, even "FRUITDEALER" the current God of all Zerg followers; Baneling busts, burrowed Infestor's that will go all the way to an opponent base and spam out Infested Marines, 6pool (Spawning pool at 6 supply and rush, hurts the economy real bad though), Queen rush and the list can go on forever.
There is absolutely no limit to what a Zerg player can conjour up against any race, the same strategy can work against all, and Zerg macro battles are always awesome to watch just because of their sheer number of Zerglings.

Another thing that's fairly "imba" about the Zerg race is the creep, you're allowed to poop creep throughout the entire map possible, and it can be used sorta like a "map hack" or "auto scout" which is somewhat similair to a Terren's sensor tower. Only thing is, sensor towers are limited to a certain radius, but creep can spread all over as long as its on land! It also helps speed up units which is why smalller maps are often considered "ZERG FAVORED" just because its easier to spread creep and run your units over to the opponents base in an instant.

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.
But just look at how dear God, the Fruitdealer, obliterated all his opponents in the GSL with everything a Zerg has to offer! Apart form the standard expansion and all, he had differnet unit compositions almost every game, and went full on Ultralisk's only when the time calls for it, or just to end the game as quickly as possible. He's won games with purely banelings, like 140 of them (YA I'VE SEEN HIM DO THAT! HE'S INSANE), or purely Infestors, which don't even do any damage upfront at all. If any of you follow Husky Starcraft, you'd probably remember his Zergling and Queen rush supported by SPINE CRAWLERS! and only faltered because the opponent went a couple of air units in the end.
To be a PRO GOSU TOP BESTEST GOODEST Zerg player, you'd probably have to spend alot of time and waste away a ton of hours experimenting on different scenarios.


Pros: Cheap, Fast, Unlimited abliities if played right.
Cons: Lower HP, slow start, need's high APM and constant momentum.
My recomendation: Give it a go, Zerg's awesome, you need real high APM and constant focus on this one though, and tons of creativity. Zerg's a complex race and it ain't for the stupid no brainers to use.
I gave it a go furing my first 5 league games after watching Fruitsellers Zergling n Queen rush way before he won the GSL, but I gave up cause I was too lousy and lazy =D


Now for Protos, the current race I use.
Protos like Terren is RATHER straight forward as well, with buff arse base units, the Zealot, and ton's of tech to pick from, they're a super alien race after all. What made me pick Protos after I tried out Terren and Zerg was the easier builds and doesn't require that high a APM count. Like Zerg, their base unit structure, the Gateway is rather similair to a Hatch, one structure for all the units you really need to play a game. Protoss like the other two races in the game, has a "buff" unit, a air and ground attacking unit, caster's stealth, support and so on. Something I like about Protoss is that I don't have to macro my units as much as Terren or Zerg, because I have less support units in a battle; ie: no Medivac's or Queen''s or whatever. I can easily macro up, and rush a opponent knowing my base units will last longer than any other opponent base unit; it takes about 4 Marines / 4 Zerglings to take down a single Zealot.
Like Terren, Protoss units can tech up pretty high as well, but it's mroe of a no brainer compared to a Terren's because the variety of units in a Protoss army is considerably ALOT less than a Terren's. A "standard" macro push against a non-cheesing bronze league player may consist of just Zealots, Stalkers and maybe a couple of Sentry's, and that's be enough.
Less units mix = less use of brain = less stressful = less APM = more time for porno?????
I dunno, but bottom line is Protos players are much more buffer and they look better too compared to the rest!
High Templars are the best counter to the 3m MMM ball too, with their insane cheap storms, which is also probably another reason why I picked this race.


However, to make up for all the "buffness" Protoss units take up more supply, as opposed to a Terren or Zergs; 1 supply = 1 marine, 1 supply = 2 Zerglings, TWO ZERGLINGS!! HOW CHEAP IS THAT! But 2 supply = 1 Zealot. Speed isn't really a Protoss strongpoint either, btu thats before teching up though. A simple reaper harass can wipe out an entire squardon of Zealots, just cause they move so slowly before charge tech. Collosus are SLOW AS er.. well, SLOW.
But who cares about reaper harass when the void rays come out anyways? =D

Pros: Efficient, high DPU (Damage per Unit), high tech, simplicity, easy micro.
Cons: Mobility, Supply requirements.
My reccomendation: this the easiest race to play if you hate Terren.



CONCLUSION NOTE:

You really cannot blame Terren's for being overpowred however, because Blizzard has spent over 10 years in balancing SC:BW with patches still coming out 10 years later, and is still stuck with the same work ethic and perfectionism with SC2. It's really up to a player's play style and creativity to win a game with any given race, so stop blaming the races!!!
Terren is PROBABLY slightly overpowered because the creators were human, and couldn't come up with enough idea's for units for other races?? =D Or they watched too many re-runs of Starship Troopers and any other movies that involves human's coming up with wacky stuff to kill aliens with.
It takes you a while to find your true calling as to what race you should use, so meddle around with the AI and training buddies more often, try out any scenario, think of counters and use every feature in the game to try and win.
Who knows probably by the next patch or expansion, they'd overpower other races just for fun, so that forumers and gamers like us have other things to whine about? But it's not like I'd ever use Terren though, I have self-respect.


END.
I KNOW I SUCK AT WRITING THIS RIGHT! BUT IT's 6AM! I JSUT FINISHED MY SLIDES FOR MY PRESENTATION THIS THURSDAY! I'M DOING THIS AS FAST AS I CAN!

and he kinda got rolled



so ultras should be able to ... idk ... 5-shot a thor? ... ultras are ground only while thor can do ground and air ... in reality, thors beat ultras ...

This post has been edited by spursfan: Oct 13 2010, 09:05 AM

a simple analysis.
z units are quite mobile but rather weak, u nid swarm of it to be efficient, n harassing wif the mobile unit while building ur "swarm" cheap good map control

p units are rather immobile but really strong, tats y their all in pushes are deadly, damn 4 gate lols. expensive n lack of map control becuz of limited units

lets look at T. they hv immobile n mobile units coming out from barracks, factory, and starport. wow! awesome! + mules to help eco, lol god damn big radius scan, n PF for expansion. wow!

about fruit winning gsl. lets face it. players were over confident, they would expect more P n T qualifying. therefore, training more vs P n T rather than z. therefore, lacking experience against Z gives fruit the ad to shine. Let us remind ourself that if ogsTop push slight minutes earlier, it would be a TTTT semis.
kthxbai

i use protoss as my main, lately been playing terran n i really do find tat i can just pew pew pew my way to victory without having much micros

People are just overstating how OP Terran is...
Well, actually Terran is not OP by too much. It just that Terran is a more "Standard" RTS play style, which you need worker to build building, but each building can produce it's own unit. So it's easier to pick up.

MMM is not an issue anymore to most player, as it's easy to counter... I played random and I never had problem with MMM.

Counter to MM:
Zerg: I always put about 2~3 Spine crawler, and with zergling and roaches (or baneling), you can deal with them.
Protoss: 2~3 cannon at ramp, the Stalker and zealot.
Terran: Bunker with Marine and SCV repairing.

Counter to MMM:
Zerg:You should have infestor by now, just fungal growth, and use infested terran egg to draw fire, then move your unit in, get a few hydralisk or mutalisk to take out the dropship, no healing MMM = useless.
Protoss: You should have high templar or colussus by now. I would use a few archon if high templar or immortal if colussus.
Terran: Siege tank splash damage can deal with them easily, just have enough number will do.


And sometimes people complaining about Marauder drop. I would say.. you have to always be aware of people would drop in units from the back of your base, regardless of race.

Protoss can drop DT and use the drop ship to warp in more units. (I always do this...)
Zerg can use overlord to drop units in....
Terran can use dropship to drop units in...

Well, just be aware of your surrounding. Use overlord surround your base, or a few observer at key location, or a sensor tower in your base.


Conclusion:
Is terran OP? Yes, maybe, but not by very much
Does terran required lesser APM (Hell, I don't even care about APM)? I don't really care, but to play effectively, all races required more or less certain level of APM.
Am I bias? Well, everyone is bias base on their playing experience, so, who cares...
So what now? Just play the race you enjoy the most, ignore what other people say and have fun.

---

Added on October 13, 2010, 9:13 amHm... From most of the others place that I read, Terran is NOT mobile at all.
And Terran without Mule can't catch up with the mineral rate of protoss or zerg early game (mainly due to rate of worker production).
Scan radius is big? Not really.
PF? Get air unit or siege unit = useless PF. And PF can't fly, dont have scan/mule, and is expansive.


This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 09:13 AM

are you seriously trolling?
reapers/helion/medivac not mobile?
n people normally get pf when going 3rd expand, 150/150 is nt expensive by den, n ofcoz turrets are ready by den
some T even uses pf in the middle of the map juz to get better contain n map control
srsly i cant help but think tat ur trolling.

I guess you need to get your fact right. Or perhaps your idea of mobility right.

Mobility in term of ARMY, not just a freaking small harass forces.
All harass forces move fast, the same goes to phoenix, muta, zergling, stalker and so on. All races got some fast and slow units, but overall major army composition of terran is slower army. Don't compare the fastest unit of a race to the slowest unit of another race. Compare the core army.
And speed of an army is always decided by the SLOWEST unit, not the fastest.

The major composition of Terran army, which has the Thor or Siege tank, is freaking damn slow.

Just tell me, how fast can you get from one end of the map to the other end of the map, with your major army, compare these for all 3 races, then you will get the idea. Don't use the freaking harassment forces as sample, which is pointless when you are talking about the whole freaking race.

I rarely played any game that goes till 3rd expansion, unless it's zerg. PF is fine as it is. If terran already got 3rd expansion, you should have 3rd as well, which you SHOULD HAVE SIEGE UNITS BY THEN. It just good against small forces, but large enough forces, or just a few siege unit can simply destroy it.

I have never seen anyone use PF in the middle of the map. Bunker perhaps, but PF? I guess you are trolling. Siege tank in siege mode with marines do a hell lot better job at that, and is mobile. PF can't move at all.

The reason mara drop is strong -> medivac able to heal after drop ....able to bust an nexus/hatch/CC less den 20 sec with 3 medivac drop
Dont forget early 2helion drop which could devast your mineral line quite fast....thx to 'line AOE' (Anyhow, i no idea how to defends agaisnt this....i normally pull probes away ...........sometime it got clump together --> end up half of the probe dies from line aoe zzzz ...)


others? ....Overlord can be massed easily....so the drop can be massed too ...however, their hp is too low? a simple turret placement is enuf to do the job...1 of the fruit dealer game did shows it ...a mass overlord with drops....but hardly reach the 'tank line'

Warp prism ...look at the cost -> 200 minerals ...slow build time...quite expensive ......for a medium hp units without any dps....Not many would get it ....most prefer immortal....

Terran is OP to me after i played 2 game agaisnt T ....MMM Kited my Stalker/Zealot/Collosus mix unit ......with stim + slow ...and the next is..... MARINE+ medivac finish off immortal/zealot/stalker with about same food count...

I really agree with your statement:

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.

I have the same thoughts on this..
Exploration on Zerg units is low because not many players wanna use Zerg.

When Zerg players been attacked with MMM, they will whine it's OP and it's a cheap tactic, but they didn't realize that using just MutaLings aren't enough to counter them.
Using Banelings however needs alot of resource. The most effective way is using Infestors.

I am not sure about others, but I like to build warp prism with warp gate to warp into enemy base. Especially for DT and HT warp.

Overlord drop I did a few times, but it's always easier to use mutalisk harassment most of the time. I would use mutalisk harassment, combine with nydus worm into the best, with mutalisk to defend it for a while.

Anyway, all drops/harassment are strong if you are not aware of it. But proper scouting or turret, cannon, overlord placement would help most of the time. I always keep a small forces in my base to defend(infestor, and a few hydralisk for zerg. Cannon and a few stalker for protoss, and some marines for terran).

To deal with MMM, always try to kill the medivac with AA. Without healing, MMM is simply useless.

---

Added on October 13, 2010, 10:40 amAgree, a few infestor can simply finish of a group of MMM. And infested terran egg is very good to draw early fire (for the player that don't micro much), while you run your zergling/baneling in.

This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 10:40 AM

Overlord = cost only 100, needs no supply space, can be used as a transporter and a scout..

In BW, for me Overlord is the most value for money unit as it can also detect cloak units.

Overseer = u can use to spy with channeling and u can use it to halt productions

Infestor = mass infested terrans

nydus worm = u can place it anywhere as long ur unit can see the location

early rush = 6 pool rush, 10 pool rush
pre-midgame rush = baneling bust

Zerg has many harrassment tactics too..

Why don't we all use terran than our problems will be solve..

i think thats why there are more terrans than zergs

healing rate for medivas is too fast.just my 2 cents

Baneling bust? Not recommended if you have the same army count with your opponent as it would just weaken your force.