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 Terran V Z/P, is terran dat imba??

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shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 09:10 AM

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People are just overstating how OP Terran is...
Well, actually Terran is not OP by too much. It just that Terran is a more "Standard" RTS play style, which you need worker to build building, but each building can produce it's own unit. So it's easier to pick up.

MMM is not an issue anymore to most player, as it's easy to counter... I played random and I never had problem with MMM.

Counter to MM:
Zerg: I always put about 2~3 Spine crawler, and with zergling and roaches (or baneling), you can deal with them.
Protoss: 2~3 cannon at ramp, the Stalker and zealot.
Terran: Bunker with Marine and SCV repairing.

Counter to MMM:
Zerg:You should have infestor by now, just fungal growth, and use infested terran egg to draw fire, then move your unit in, get a few hydralisk or mutalisk to take out the dropship, no healing MMM = useless.
Protoss: You should have high templar or colussus by now. I would use a few archon if high templar or immortal if colussus.
Terran: Siege tank splash damage can deal with them easily, just have enough number will do.


And sometimes people complaining about Marauder drop. I would say.. you have to always be aware of people would drop in units from the back of your base, regardless of race.

Protoss can drop DT and use the drop ship to warp in more units. (I always do this...)
Zerg can use overlord to drop units in....
Terran can use dropship to drop units in...

Well, just be aware of your surrounding. Use overlord surround your base, or a few observer at key location, or a sensor tower in your base.


Conclusion:
Is terran OP? Yes, maybe, but not by very much
Does terran required lesser APM (Hell, I don't even care about APM)? I don't really care, but to play effectively, all races required more or less certain level of APM.
Am I bias? Well, everyone is bias base on their playing experience, so, who cares...
So what now? Just play the race you enjoy the most, ignore what other people say and have fun.


Added on October 13, 2010, 9:13 am
QUOTE(kenixkenix @ Oct 13 2010, 07:55 AM)

lets look at T. they hv immobile n mobile units coming out from barracks, factory, and starport. wow! awesome! + mules to help eco, lol god damn big radius scan, n PF for expansion. wow!

*
Hm... From most of the others place that I read, Terran is NOT mobile at all.
And Terran without Mule can't catch up with the mineral rate of protoss or zerg early game (mainly due to rate of worker production).
Scan radius is big? Not really.
PF? Get air unit or siege unit = useless PF. And PF can't fly, dont have scan/mule, and is expansive.


This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 09:13 AM
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(kenixkenix @ Oct 13 2010, 09:58 AM)
are you seriously trolling?
reapers/helion/medivac not mobile?
n people normally get pf when going 3rd expand, 150/150 is nt expensive by den, n ofcoz turrets are ready by den
some T even uses pf in the middle of the map juz to get better contain n map control
srsly i cant help but think tat ur trolling.
*
I guess you need to get your fact right. Or perhaps your idea of mobility right.

Mobility in term of ARMY, not just a freaking small harass forces.
All harass forces move fast, the same goes to phoenix, muta, zergling, stalker and so on. All races got some fast and slow units, but overall major army composition of terran is slower army. Don't compare the fastest unit of a race to the slowest unit of another race. Compare the core army.
And speed of an army is always decided by the SLOWEST unit, not the fastest.

The major composition of Terran army, which has the Thor or Siege tank, is freaking damn slow.

Just tell me, how fast can you get from one end of the map to the other end of the map, with your major army, compare these for all 3 races, then you will get the idea. Don't use the freaking harassment forces as sample, which is pointless when you are talking about the whole freaking race.

I rarely played any game that goes till 3rd expansion, unless it's zerg. PF is fine as it is. If terran already got 3rd expansion, you should have 3rd as well, which you SHOULD HAVE SIEGE UNITS BY THEN. It just good against small forces, but large enough forces, or just a few siege unit can simply destroy it.

I have never seen anyone use PF in the middle of the map. Bunker perhaps, but PF? I guess you are trolling. Siege tank in siege mode with marines do a hell lot better job at that, and is mobile. PF can't move at all.
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 10:38 AM

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I am not sure about others, but I like to build warp prism with warp gate to warp into enemy base. Especially for DT and HT warp.

Overlord drop I did a few times, but it's always easier to use mutalisk harassment most of the time. I would use mutalisk harassment, combine with nydus worm into the best, with mutalisk to defend it for a while.

Anyway, all drops/harassment are strong if you are not aware of it. But proper scouting or turret, cannon, overlord placement would help most of the time. I always keep a small forces in my base to defend(infestor, and a few hydralisk for zerg. Cannon and a few stalker for protoss, and some marines for terran).

To deal with MMM, always try to kill the medivac with AA. Without healing, MMM is simply useless.


Added on October 13, 2010, 10:40 am
QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 10:30 AM)
I really agree with your statement:

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.

I have the same thoughts on this..
Exploration on Zerg units is low because not many players wanna use Zerg.

When Zerg players been attacked with MMM, they will whine it's OP and it's a cheap tactic, but they didn't realize that using just MutaLings aren't enough to counter them.
Using Banelings however needs alot of resource. The most effective way is using Infestors.
*
Agree, a few infestor can simply finish of a group of MMM. And infested terran egg is very good to draw early fire (for the player that don't micro much), while you run your zergling/baneling in.

This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 10:40 AM
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(pakabluegun @ Oct 13 2010, 11:10 AM)
For me terran is OP cause the macro is easy.  I dont have to constantly spit on my hive or warp warp warp. just memorize some 1S2DDAA3T to constantly churn out scv MMM and tanks. For terran Macro > micro. infestor? meh... i have tons of MMM rolling in for backup.  Unless the zerg is good in micro i can win cheap with just simply good  macro. yeah it is cheap but it works.
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What makes you think that the zerg doesn't have tons of other units rolling in for backup... And injection is simple... Put all your queen on one hotkey, press hotkey, press injection, press minimap (I never tried it yet, just read it somewhere). Or for myself, i hotkey each hatchery differently, just double press the number, and do injection.. pretty simple..

It just that people can't get used to the play style, doesn't mean it's hard. I always has a larger army count than my opponenet if I play zerg, and I always able to get my army back fast after a battle.
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 11:38 AM)
WHO THE HELL COUNTERS MMM with cannons?

and mass repair fortress > any unit toss can make...



Added on October 13, 2010, 11:42 amfor those saying good things bout templar to counter MMM...
when is the last time u ever see templar being used by high lvl toss to beat MMM in major tournaments?





Added on October 13, 2010, 11:47 am

lol that's the WORST mistake u can make to focus down on the medic when engaging MMM...



*
Dunno what to say.
1: Please read, MM not MMM. I mean early MM (marine marauder). Marauder is deadly for protoss with shell upgrade (kiting). So the cannon can buy some time (and forcefield with sentry of course) to tech up until colossus OR HT. And cannon doesn't mean block your freaking exit, just some cannon at the side to help out. I never ask player to mass cannon like those going 1-base voidrays.

2: Mass repair can easy country by colussus, HT, or any freaking AOE attack to kill scv. Better yet, ignore the PF and go for his main. No one ask you to attack a PF with a bunch of melee units. Is like complaining zealot die to mutalisk is due to mutalisk OP.

3: HT is still effective, Colussus just easier to micro. And archon is underused in my opinion. But who cares, I am not those high level competition player, and not like I will be fighting those guys, so HT still effective as far as I concern. On top of that, unit counter is not the only thing in the game, unit positioning is very important as well.

4: it very much depends on your army composition. I always have Air anti air unit with me (viking, pheonix, muta), the moment you get rid of their marine, then focus their freaking medic with air unit. Marine die a lot easier than marauder. I didn't ask you to bring down the medic before marine, and I am refering to Marauder drop of someone stated earlier,which has no marine in the picture.


5: About mobility, Terran mobility is better than SCBW, but still not better than other races which is the main point. Who cares how is the game during SCBW, it's SC2 that we are disucssing. Terran is good at turtling, which a frontal attack is hard to break into terran base. Terran would make use of this advantages to defend. Just use your best advantages in the game, dont complain just because Terran is good at something. Protoss and Zerg have their own strength, utilize them.


6: I don't care much about what top players said. They keep switching their stand if you are aware of it, since long ago. The moment someone figure out a crazy way, people will start abusing it and others will say it's OP. The moment you can find a lot of counter to it, people switch stand again.



shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM)
btw try to beat MMM with gateway units alone...
u'll get decimated...
which is why pros tech up to colossus (or root gaming's 1gate1robo into 3gate1robo build for early immortal and superb FFs before a transition into colossus)....
stimmed MM roll all gateway units...

u need t3 units like colossus and HTs to beat t1 and 1.5 MM balls


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:08 pm

for some1 that won the whole of GSL i am sure he has skill...
his teammates are known to be the best of their respective race and all 3 of them were the 100% favourites to win the whole GSL...

cool aka fruity: zerg
tester aka ssks: toss
clide aka cliiiiiiiiide: terran

i merely jz provide proof that koreans do whine about terran's imbaness...
before GSL, toss is considered the best race by korean until they saw how 1sided games are when toss's early game is abused...
*
Firstly, failed argument. Tier is POINTLESS in SC2. Just like a single Stalker can kill a Phoenix. So Stalker is OP?
Second, Gateway unit can win MM, you need higher tier to win MMM.
It's your own freaking fault to use only gateway unit against a MMM.
2 or 3 Mediav can't do much in a MMM, but 2 or 3 Colussus can make a big deal VS MMM.
It's freaking pointless to compare this way.


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:40 pm
QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM)
1. as i said, u give away map control which u would jz get 2 medic and drop u... no offense but cannon-ing ur ramp vs terran is one of the dumbest thing u can do when u reach higher gold and retarded when u are diamond..

2. tell that to kiwikaki and huk from IEM NY k?
5 colossus cant break the fortress even when kiwi aimed the scvs...
there are still units around the fortress mind u (we are not talking bout scrub terrans)
the moment u spend time trying to break the PF, ur base is getting dropped...

3. u die before getting HT as agreed by the pros (and mid-high diamond)...
u take a early robo no matter wut due to the banshee styled builds (polt timing attack even need u to go 3-1-1) as well as to scout early on...
and even when ur colossus get EMP, u sitll have dps unlike templar...
archon getting emp-ed = 10hp crap...

4. going after the medics are the worse move u should do in an engagement as a said...
a drop does not count as an engagement as for drops, u would need to focus down the medic to avoid pickup micros which is a big survivability to the dropped units...

5. tell me how mobile is a toss compared to terran
IEM NY last week is so damn obvious...
watch fenix vs kiwikaki, huk vs qxc and kiwikaki vs qxc...
the immobility of toss is so glaring even when u have a bigger army...

6. i dun see much of the pros changing...
they just speak their mind in itnerviews how unbalanced terran are...
u dun balance a game based on bronze lvl players which only atk move...
bronze lvl players die to everything (lol @ toss's 60%+ win rate for lower leagues when its <50% for diamond)...


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:25 pm

note: GSL is the first major korean tournament...

IEM cologne brough us the 5raxreaper which state terran is OP
demuslim or was it dimaga said that due to his sponsors, he might be forced to quit zerg and go terran just to win some games...
*
Ghost have to spend like 4 EMP on it to make it 10hp. 3 EMP to make it 10hp and 50 shield. Yeah, it's easy to bring down the shield with EMP, but it would means less emp on other units. Archon size is pretty big, which 1 EMP fewer archon as compare to others. If you spread out your archon to the point that ghost can't emp all, the splash damage is handy against marines.

Too lazy to continue the argument.
Whatever, who am I to judged the game is balance or not, but neither are you or those pro. Things keep changing everyday and balance keep shifting everyday. Who cares.
As long as I have fun playing the game, I don't care much about other things.


This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 12:40 PM

 

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