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 Terran V Z/P, is terran dat imba??

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evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:17 AM

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QUOTE(Soul-X @ Oct 13 2010, 03:56 AM)
Terran needs 30 APM

Protoss needs 150 APM

Zerg needs 300 APM
*
myth...
tester have 400apm and still lost...
the only guy to defend a 2gate with 1gate and a marine scv all in cant even break top4...

and cool aka fruity winner of GSL said terran > toss for TvP...
he said ZvT is fine with the tank nerfs lol...
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 09:10 AM)
People are just overstating how OP Terran is...
Well, actually Terran is not OP by too much. It just that Terran is a more "Standard" RTS play style, which you need worker to build building, but each building can produce it's own unit. So it's easier to pick up.

MMM is not an issue anymore to most player, as it's easy to counter... I played random and I never had problem with MMM.

Counter to MM:
Zerg: I always put about 2~3 Spine crawler, and with zergling and roaches (or baneling), you can deal with them.
Protoss: 2~3 cannon at ramp, the Stalker and zealot.
Terran: Bunker with Marine and SCV repairing.

Counter to MMM:
Zerg:You should have infestor by now, just fungal growth, and use infested terran egg to draw fire, then move your unit in, get a few hydralisk or mutalisk to take out the dropship, no healing MMM = useless.
Protoss: You should have high templar or colussus by now. I would use a few archon if high templar or immortal if colussus.
Terran: Siege tank splash damage can deal with them easily, just have enough number will do.
And sometimes people complaining about Marauder drop. I would say.. you have to always be aware of people would drop in units from the back of your base, regardless of race.

Protoss can drop DT and use the drop ship to warp in more units. (I always do this...)
Zerg can use overlord to drop units in....
Terran can use dropship to drop units in...

Well, just be aware of your surrounding. Use overlord surround your base, or a few observer at key location, or a sensor tower in your base.
Conclusion:
Is terran OP? Yes, maybe, but not by very much
Does terran required lesser APM (Hell, I don't even care about APM)? I don't really care, but to play effectively, all races required more or less certain level of APM.
Am I bias? Well, everyone is bias base on their playing experience, so, who cares...
So what now? Just play the race you enjoy the most, ignore what other people say and have fun.


Added on October 13, 2010, 9:13 am

Hm... From most of the others place that I read, Terran is NOT mobile at all.
And Terran without Mule can't catch up with the mineral rate of protoss or zerg early game (mainly due to rate of worker production).
Scan radius is big? Not really.
PF? Get air unit or siege unit = useless PF. And PF can't fly, dont have scan/mule, and is expansive.
*
LOL please tell me u are not high on drugs or u are at least in plat or diamond?
WHO THE HELL COUNTERS MMM with cannons?
its like telling the terran to take expansions all over the map or freely drop in ur base away from ur ramp...

and mass repair fortress > any unit toss can make...
my 4 charged VR cant take out a PF before his reinforcements arrive and my ground army cant move in...
kiwikaki's 5 colossus with tonnes of stalkers cant break through fenix's PF in xelnaga's gold for 4 attacks in total in last week's IEM NY...
and each time he atk? fenix drops in kiwi's base while mass repair PF hold off...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:42 amfor those saying good things bout templar to counter MMM...
when is the last time u ever see templar being used by high lvl toss to beat MMM in major tournaments?

answer:
NONE...
GSL most of them went for colossus and won while those went for templar died a painful death...
IEM NY all of them went for colossus...
why? templar tech is too slow to get which would kill u b4 u get ur storm research started...
and with the polt timing atk builds or any banshee type play, u need to get observers which slow down templar tech slower...
lastly as huk and every1 pointed out, EMP just destroy templars (tester had superior position over rainbow with his colossus with bigger army and lost to 1 emp)


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:45 am
QUOTE(roxxor89 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM)
LOOOOL!!!!
In anycase, if any of you are actual hardcore fans of the sc2 scene, you will realize that only non-koreans are complaining abt terran being OP. Infact even some top tier global players agree on the fact that its not the Marauders you should be worried about, its the Terran mechplay. The common reactive steps taken by amateur players against MM is to tech up which is in most cases, flawed (taking into account both players have no redundant macro). While it may work to a certain extent depending on numbers vs numbers, at the end of the day an all-out Tier 1 army will win via resource alone.

One commonly accepted fact is that, Terran as well as Protoss are far more beginner friendly to use. Zerg's gameplay and macrostyle is vastly different from the two other races that a competent Zerg player will usually be able to scale his skills across all the races.
*
WHAT?
did u even watch GSL or read interviews?
cool aka fruity said that terran is favored for TvP...
isnt he a korean?
tester lost to some random terran and failed to qualify for GSL2 which is the biggest upset...
top 4 of GSL1 is 3 terran, same as IEM NY...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:47 am
QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 10:38 AM)
I am not sure about others, but I like to build warp prism with warp gate to warp into enemy base. Especially for DT and HT warp.

Overlord drop I did a few times, but it's always easier to use mutalisk harassment most of the time. I would use mutalisk harassment, combine with nydus worm into the best, with mutalisk to defend it for a while.

Anyway, all drops/harassment are strong if you are not aware of it. But proper scouting or turret, cannon, overlord placement would help most of the time. I always keep a small forces in my base to defend(infestor, and a few hydralisk for zerg. Cannon and a few stalker for protoss, and some marines for terran).

To deal with MMM, always try to kill the medivac with AA. Without healing, MMM is simply useless.


Added on October 13, 2010, 10:40 am

Agree, a few infestor can simply finish of a group of MMM. And infested terran egg is very good to draw early fire (for the player that don't micro much), while you run your zergling/baneling in.
*
lol that's the WORST mistake u can make to focus down on the medic when engaging MMM...
when u focus on the medic, his MM ball jz burn through all ur units and u lacking the dps/ burst to kill the MM...
its like giving the MM a full duration of stim dps...
since when do u see pros focusing on the medic during an engagement (not a drop play btw)?


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:49 am
QUOTE(xShinji @ Oct 13 2010, 10:26 AM)
The reason mara drop is strong -> medivac able to heal after drop ....able to bust an nexus/hatch/CC less den 20 sec with 3 medivac drop
Dont forget early 2helion drop which could devast your mineral line quite fast....thx to 'line AOE' (Anyhow, i no idea how to defends agaisnt this....i normally pull probes away ...........sometime it got clump together --> end up half of the probe dies from line aoe zzzz ...)
others? ....Overlord can be massed easily....so the drop can be massed too ...however, their hp is too low? a simple turret placement is enuf to do the job...1 of the fruit dealer game did shows it ...a mass overlord with drops....but hardly reach the 'tank line'

Warp prism ...look at the cost -> 200 minerals ...slow build time...quite expensive ......for a medium hp units without any dps....Not many would get it ....most prefer immortal.... 

Terran is OP to me after i played 2 game agaisnt T ....MMM Kited my Stalker/Zealot/Collosus mix unit ......with stim + slow ...and the next is..... MARINE+ medivac finish off immortal/zealot/stalker with about same food count...
*
GSL1, countless nexus and hatch was dropped by stimmed marauders x1 from a single medicvac...
as tastosis put it: drop, stim and right click on the nexus, u cant click on the nexus anymore again...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 11:49 AM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 10:24 AM)
I guess you need to get your fact right. Or perhaps your idea of mobility right.

Mobility in term of ARMY, not just a freaking small harass forces.
All harass forces move fast, the same goes to phoenix, muta, zergling, stalker and so on. All races got some fast and slow units, but overall major army composition of terran is slower army. Don't compare the fastest unit of a race to the slowest unit of another race. Compare the core army.
And speed of an army is always decided by the SLOWEST unit, not the fastest.

The major composition of Terran army, which has the Thor or Siege tank, is freaking damn slow.

Just tell me, how fast can you get from one end of the map to the other end of the map, with your major army, compare these for all 3 races, then you will get the idea. Don't use the freaking harassment forces as sample, which is pointless when you are talking about the whole freaking race.

I rarely played any game that goes till 3rd expansion, unless it's zerg. PF is fine as it is. If terran already got 3rd expansion, you should have 3rd as well, which you SHOULD HAVE SIEGE UNITS BY THEN. It just good against small forces, but large enough forces, or just a few siege unit can simply destroy it.

I have never seen anyone use PF in the middle of the map. Bunker perhaps, but PF? I guess you are trolling. Siege tank in siege mode with marines do a hell lot better job at that, and is mobile. PF can't move at all.
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terran's mobility is so much higher than it was in SCBW...
medicvac is part of ur core MMM army and u can use them to drop effectively...
again, look at IEM NY where terrans always drop within the toss's base whenever the toss move out and could still defend well with a much smaller army...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:51 am
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM)
Fruity said Terran is favored for TvP. Did he say Terran is OP? Yeah Tester lost to some random Terran which he should not? Because he is such a pro? While random Terran is noob? I don't even know why sometime Lin Dan would lose to some no-name.
*
u do know that fruity raged on the korean forum b4 his quarters (b4 he meet ogstop) about terran?
he even said he gonna swap to terran if he failed to reach top 4?

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 11:59 AM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(roxxor89 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM)
LOOOOL!!!!
In anycase, if any of you are actual hardcore fans of the sc2 scene, you will realize that only non-koreans are complaining abt terran being OP. Infact even some top tier global players agree on the fact that its not the Marauders you should be worried about, its the Terran mechplay. The common reactive steps taken by amateur players against MM is to tech up which is in most cases, flawed (taking into account both players have no redundant macro). While it may work to a certain extent depending on numbers vs numbers, at the end of the day an all-out Tier 1 army will win via resource alone.

One commonly accepted fact is that, Terran as well as Protoss are far more beginner friendly to use. Zerg's gameplay and macrostyle is vastly different from the two other races that a competent Zerg player will usually be able to scale his skills across all the races.
*
btw try to beat MMM with gateway units alone...
u'll get decimated...
which is why pros tech up to colossus (or root gaming's 1gate1robo into 3gate1robo build for early immortal and superb FFs before a transition into colossus)....
stimmed MM roll all gateway units...

u need t3 units like colossus and HTs to beat t1 and 1.5 MM balls


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:08 pm
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 PM)
Typical gamer. "If I lost, it's not because of skill / technique. It's because of race".
*
for some1 that won the whole of GSL i am sure he has skill...
his teammates are known to be the best of their respective race and all 3 of them were the 100% favourites to win the whole GSL...

cool aka fruity: zerg
tester aka ssks: toss
clide aka cliiiiiiiiide: terran

i merely jz provide proof that koreans do whine about terran's imbaness...
before GSL, toss is considered the best race by korean until they saw how 1sided games are when toss's early game is abused...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:08 PM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:12 PM)
Dunno what to say.
1: Please read, MM not MMM. I mean early MM (marine marauder). Marauder is deadly for protoss with shell upgrade (kiting). So the cannon can buy some time (and forcefield with sentry of course) to tech up until colossus OR HT. And cannon doesn't mean block your freaking exit, just some cannon at the side to help out. I never ask player to mass cannon like those going 1-base voidrays.

2: Mass repair can easy country by colussus, HT, or any freaking AOE attack to kill scv. Better yet, ignore the PF and go for his main. No one ask you to attack a PF with a bunch of melee units. Is like complaining zealot die to mutalisk is due to mutalisk OP.

3: HT is still effective, Colussus just easier to micro. And archon is underused in my opinion. But who cares, I am not those high level competition player, and not like I will be fighting those guys, so HT still effective as far as I concern. On top of that, unit counter is not the only thing in the game, unit positioning is very important as well.

4: it very much depends on your army composition. I always have Air anti air unit with me (viking, pheonix, muta), the moment you get rid of their marine, then focus their freaking medic with air unit. Marine die a lot easier than marauder. I didn't ask you to bring down the medic before marine, and I am refering to Marauder drop of someone stated earlier,which has no marine in the picture.
5: About mobility, Terran mobility is better than SCBW, but still not better than other races which is the main point. Who cares how is the game during SCBW, it's SC2 that we are disucssing. Terran is good at turtling, which a frontal attack is hard to break into terran base. Terran would make use of this advantages to defend. Just use your best advantages in the game, dont complain just because Terran is good at something. Protoss and Zerg have their own strength, utilize them.
6: I don't care much about what top players said. They keep switching their stand if you are aware of it, since long ago. The moment someone figure out a crazy way, people will start abusing it and others will say it's OP. The moment you can find a lot of counter to it, people switch stand again.
*
1. as i said, u give away map control which u would jz get 2 medic and drop u... no offense but cannon-ing ur ramp vs terran is one of the dumbest thing u can do when u reach higher gold and retarded when u are diamond..

2. tell that to kiwikaki and huk from IEM NY k?
5 colossus cant break the fortress even when kiwi aimed the scvs...
there are still units around the fortress mind u (we are not talking bout scrub terrans)
the moment u spend time trying to break the PF, ur base is getting dropped...

3. u die before getting HT as agreed by the pros (and mid-high diamond)...
u take a early robo no matter wut due to the banshee styled builds (polt timing attack even need u to go 3-1-1) as well as to scout early on...
and even when ur colossus get EMP, u sitll have dps unlike templar...
archon getting emp-ed = 10hp crap...

4. going after the medics are the worse move u should do in an engagement as a said...
a drop does not count as an engagement as for drops, u would need to focus down the medic to avoid pickup micros which is a big survivability to the dropped units...

5. tell me how mobile is a toss compared to terran
IEM NY last week is so damn obvious...
watch fenix vs kiwikaki, huk vs qxc and kiwikaki vs qxc...
the immobility of toss is so glaring even when u have a bigger army...

6. i dun see much of the pros changing...
they just speak their mind in itnerviews how unbalanced terran are...
u dun balance a game based on bronze lvl players which only atk move...
bronze lvl players die to everything (lol @ toss's 60%+ win rate for lower leagues when its <50% for diamond)...


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:25 pm
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:18 PM)
Couldn't agree more. Here's the proof:
*
note: GSL is the first major korean tournament...

IEM cologne brough us the 5raxreaper which state terran is OP
demuslim or was it dimaga said that due to his sponsors, he might be forced to quit zerg and go terran just to win some games...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:25 PM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:26 PM)
Yeah, sounds like Bronze players have no place in the game, even though they paid the same price in purchasing the game. "If you'are just a Bronze, keep your mouth shut, you've no right to voice".
*
its a fact...
bronze players die to 4 gate all the game does that mean that 4gate is imba?
and wont bronze players improve over time (unless u think that bronze players are almost the noobs)?
wut happen if they get promoted and got creamed?
u set the metagame in the higher lvl as the reference to the lower leagues...
balancing the game among the bad players is not balance...

even if u buff storm/ fungal/ stim up to OP >9000 lvl, bronze players would nt be able to cast it at the right spot/ at the right time...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:35 PM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM)
Firstly, failed argument. Tier is POINTLESS in SC2. Just like a single Stalker can kill a Phoenix. So Stalker is OP?
Second, Gateway unit can win MM, you need higher tier to win MMM.
It's your own freaking fault to use only gateway unit against a MMM.
2 or 3 Mediav can't do much in a MMM, but 2 or 3 Colussus can make a big deal VS MMM.
It's freaking pointless to compare this way.
*
tier is not pointless when there is a big tier difference...
each base can only have a limited amount of gas which limits ur tech...

2-3 colossus is not good vs MMM...
colossus need their range to be effective...
again look at high lvl GSL or any similar lvl tournaments...
the magic number of colossus is 4 not 2-3...

no offense but wut u have been claiming is totally misleading...
when is the last time u see high lvl toss players focus down medics when engaging MMM?

to be fair, add me on bnet...
i'll take terran with only MM and u can go gateway units only...
i can show u how single MM with stim micro can wipe out ur whole gateway army with relative ease...
i can even kite chargelot with MM (no medic) around my opponent's base 3 times and then kill him with all my units at red...
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 01:38 PM)
a unit is bad/unbalanced because of the lack of skill != balance.
blizzard will NOT buff a unit because a bronze cried it being weak

sure as hell bronze can voice out, whether they will be taken seriously on the other hand, is a whole different story. if you're bronze, you play with your other bronze, and you guys can cry about OP together


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:38 pm

thats what the pros do tongue.gif


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


first off, WHY is tier not relevant? tier needs TIME and GAS to reach, while lower tier (read: MM) does not. you can be teching templars and colo, the MM will be at your gate saying hello. a good timing push is ~40-50 supply @ 6-8minute time frame.

at that point, toss have NO HT/colo. only thing they got is sentry to buy time. however, you're contained. grats. terran expand, while you struggle to break free. by the time you got a colo or ht, terran gets medi/tank/ghost. what do?


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm

evo threw the gauntlet. lol
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lol not all pros...
idra wont be terran cause he got self respect...
as for dimaga, he is one of the best western zerg i've seen (besides idra) and when u see him saying that its such a big blow to the community (TL especially)

i dunno bout the other players here but i for one hate the feeling of being contained...
why? simple fact that u gotta move down ur ramp while he have already establish a pre-concave would rape ur army hard (see tester vs rainbow game 2)...
its nt easy to break a containment especially good players who know to pre-concave and play safe...
this is why using cannon at ur ramp is one of the worst thing u can do...
using sentry to FF the ramp is the better solution, cannons? stick them to ur mineral line for possible harass...

as for the gauntlet challenge, not being a terran player (while i random a lot and do get terran with high winning rate), i am fairly confident at my terran play...
MM would require u to have simple atk move micro to do well enuff to rape gateway armies...
compared to hw much i have been microing on my toss (FFs) and zerg (surround, flanking ,carpet bombing, magic boxing etc), that's pretty ez lol...

as for fruity in GSL?
i feel top would have won game 3 if he decided to atk after his early game harassment...
fruity was on like <20 drones and wut top do?
double expanded and waiting for 200/200 thor when ultralisk's saurfang bug is available doh.gif

QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 03:44 PM)
wow macam ini pun akan ban?? i'm new to this forum anyway =)

so back to the topic, any insights of wats coming up on the upcoming 1.2 patch??
*
its a parody of TL.net forums...
usually OP rants in live report threads would be suspended LOL...
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(xShinji @ Oct 13 2010, 02:24 PM)
@Shiciri ....this thread is about OPness of Terran for now ...

Anyway ......Aeco state a very good argument ....man ...so far.....He one of the malaysian watched alll major tournament game .....

Anyway ...HEI ...the world has more Protoss player than Terran player ...from what I seen after a/2 mth of this game launched. Protoss should be explored as much as Terran....

@Shadow ....Can I know what league you are in? ...to me League/ranking is a big matter : )
*
imho, toss was pretty much explored during beta...
idra pointed out that the ceiling for toss (more like skill cap) is pretty low which is why he didnt continued his toss (he was a toss back in beta b4 zerg)...
upon release, we rarely see any new innovative toss play (besides inca's awesome cannon rush lol)

terran's peak was mostly during IEM cologne where the 5raxreaper broke apart the metagame for TvZ instead of the usual hellion/ banshee...
GSL then carried that on with some of the best early aggression terran could pull out (3marauder push, marine all-in, polt timing atk, repairion etc)...
recently tlo's double fac build is one of the best i've seen though being very very micro intensive...

i would say terran is now OP but nt as OP as most claimed...
the best terran matchup is still TvP where toss's early game vulnerability (limited openings) coupled with terran's flexible opening/ timing pushes and early game pressure (t1 t1.5) give terran such a big advantage...

QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 02:40 PM)
yeah.

I wanna see longer fire range for Roaches and faster base movement for Overlord.
*
i rather have roach speed upgrable b4 lair...
i find mobility > range for roaches (i only get roaches for their mobility)
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(roronoa_zorro @ Oct 13 2010, 03:58 PM)
mmm can easily counter by using high templar if u using toss
*
the problem is getting the templars as i've mentioned (pros said this as well)...
for u to go templar tech, u would need at least 3 gate to survive...
to get HT: -
- 3 gate (some sentry for FF/ GS)
- twillight council (charge is needed as well since u need to spend ur mienrals on zealot and its 200/200 to tech)
- templar archive
- pre-warp 2-3 HT for energy
- research storm
- research amulet
all of the above are very very very gas intensive (u cant support this off 1base and survive any atk i gurantee u)...
and its auto loose vs banshee openings (which is very very common by top lvl diamonds especially the polt timing atk)

not to loose to banshee, u need robo for obs...
that is a different tech tree, pretty gas intensive still to get since u would need 2 obs...
so why nt drop a bay and get colossus?
much easier tech, faster to get and cheaper...
and u wont auto loose vs emp...

though i suggest when u have 3 base, start getting HTs...
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 05:33 PM)
yea yea heard of it...who manages TL anyway?? foreigners?? i tot it was some local dorum jz like LYN...
i went there actually but theres too many stuff so end up din read=.=
*
ya foreigners...
its the biggest non-korean/ china sc community out there (every1 except those 2 countries goes there though koreans go support TL a lot like cellawerra)

 

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