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Group LYN Buddhism Retreat - SERIOUS TALK, No trolling please

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zstan
post Aug 15 2010, 10:12 PM

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Buddhism-Major Differences


1. There is no almighty God in Buddhism. There is no one to hand out rewards or punishments on a supposedly Judgement Day.

2. Buddhism is strictly not a religion in the context of being a faith and worship owing allegiance to a supernatural being.

3. No saviour concept in Buddhism. A Buddha is not a saviour who saves others by his personal salvation. Although a Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha as his incomparable guide who indicates the path of purity, he makes no servile surrender. A Buddhist does not think that he can gain purity merely by seeking refuge in the Buddha or by mere faith in Him. It is not within the power of a Buddha to wash away the impurities of others

4. A Buddha is not an incarnation of a god/God (as claimed by some Hindu followers). The relationship between a Buddha and his disciples and followers is that of a teacher and student.

5. The liberation of self is the responsibility of one's own self. Buddhism does not call for an unquestionable blind faith by all Buddhist followers. It places heavy emphasis on self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving.

6. Taking refuge in The Triple Gems i.e. the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha; does not mean self-surrender or total reliance on an external force or third party for help or salvation.

7. Dharma (the teachings in Buddhism) exists regardless whether there is a Buddha. Sakyamuni Buddha (as the historical Buddha) discovered and shared the teachings/ universal truths with all sentient beings. He is neither the creator of such teachings nor the prophet of an almighty God to transmit such teachings to others.

8. Especially emphasized in Mahayana Buddhism, all sentient beings have Buddha Nature/ Essence. One can become a Buddha (a supreme enlightened being) in due course if one practises diligently and attains purity of mind (ie absolutely no delusions or afflictions).

9. In Buddhism, the ultimate objective of followers/practitioners is enlightenment and/or liberation from Samsara; rather than to go to a Heaven (or a deva realm in the context of Buddhist cosmology).

10. Karma and Karma Force are cornerstones in Buddhist doctrines. They are expounded very thoroughly in Buddhism. Karma refers to an important metaphysical concept concerned with action and its consequences. This law of karma explains the problem of sufferings, the mystery of the so-called fate and predestination of some religions, and above all the apparent inequality of mankind.

11. Rebirth is another key doctrine in Buddhism and it goes hand in hand with karma. There is a subtle difference between rebirth and reincarnation as expounded in Hinduism. Buddhism rejects the theory of a transmigrating permanent soul, whether created by a god or emanating from a divine essence.

12. Maitri or Metta in Pali (Loving Kindness) and Karuna (Compassion) to all living beings including animals. Buddhism strictly forbids animal sacrifice for whatever reason. Vegetarianism is recommended but not compulsory.

13. The importance of Non-attachment. Buddhism goes beyond doing good and being good. One must not be attached to good deeds or the idea of doing good; otherwise it is just another form of craving.

14. In Buddhism, there is consideration for all sentient beings (versus human beings, as in other religions). Buddhists acknowledge/accept the existence of animals and beings in other realms in Samsara.

15. No holy war concept in Buddhism. Killing is breaking a key moral precept in Buddhism. One is strictly forbidden to kill another person in the name of religion, a religious leader or whatsoever religious pretext or worldly excuse.

16. Suffering is another cornerstone in Buddhism. It is the first of the Four Noble Truths. Sufferings are very well analysed and explained in Buddhism.

17. The idea of sin or original sin has no place in Buddhism. Also, sin should not be equated to suffering.

18. Buddhist teachings expound no beginning and no end to one's existence or life. There is virtually no recognition of a first cause — e.g. how does human existence first come about?

19. The Dharma provides a very detailed explanation of the doctrine of anatman {anatta in Pali} or soullessness , i.e. there is no soul entity (whether in one life of many lives).

20. The Buddha is omniscient but he is not omnipotent. He is capable of innumerable feats but there are three things he cannot do. Also, a Buddha does not claim to be a creator of lives or the Universe.

21. Prajna [Panna in Pali] or Transcendent Wisdom occupies a paramount position in Buddhist teachings. Sakyamuni Buddha expounded Prajna concepts for some 20 years of his ministry. One is taught to balance compassion with prajna i.e.emotion (faith) with rationale (right understanding / truth / logic).

22. The tradition and practice of meditation in Buddhism are relatively important and strong. While all religions teach some forms or variations of stabilising/single-pointedness meditation, only Buddhism emphazises Vipassana (Insight) meditation as a powerful tool to assist one in seeking liberation/enlightenment.

23. The doctrine of Sunyata or Emptiness is unique to Buddhism and its many aspects are well expounded in advanced Buddhist teachings. Briefly, this doctrine asserts the transcendental nature of Ultimate Reality. It declares the phenomenal world to be void of all limitations of particularization and that all concepts of dualism are abolished.

24. Conditioned Arising [Paticcasamuppada in Pali] or Dependent Origination is another key doctrine in Buddhism. This doctrine explains that all psychological and physical phenomena constituting individual existence are interdependent and mutually condition each other; this at the same time describes what entangles sentient beings in samsara.

25. The concept of Hell(s) in Buddhism is very different from that of other religions. It is not a place for eternal damnation as viewed by 'almighty creator' religions. In Buddhism, it is just one of the six realms in Samsara [i.e. the worst of three undesirable realms]. Also, there are virtually unlimited number of hells in the Buddhist cosmology as there are infinite number of Buddha worlds.

26. The Buddhist cosmology (or universe) is distinctly different from that of other religions which usually recognise only this solar system (Earth) as the centre of the Universe and the only planet with living beings. The Buddhist viewpoint of a Buddha world (also known as Three Thousand-Fold World System) is that of one billion solar systems. Besides, the Mahayana Buddhist doctrines expound that there are other contemporary Buddha worlds like Amitabha's Pure Land and Bhaisajyaguru's world system.

27. Samsara is a fundamental concept in Buddhism and it is simply the 'perpetual cycles of existence' or endless rounds of rebirth among the six realms of existence. This cyclical rebirth pattern will only end when a sentient being attains Nirvana, i.e. virtual exhaustion of karma, habitual traces, defilements and delusions. All other religions preach one heaven, one earth and one hell, but this perspective is very limited compared with Buddhist samsara where heaven is just one of the six realms of existence and it has 28 levels/planes.

[ Compiled by Tan Swee Eng]
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 15 2010, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:07 AM)
for a person is who blind since birth...and only ever communicate with other blind-since-birth people, vision would be supernatural.
What would a blind person see? By saying something unknown and that explains supernatural (another unknown), what are you trying to explain?
QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:07 AM)

Added on August 15, 2010, 11:09 amthats when ones judgement is put to the test. sleep.gif

all buddhist practise are based on this principle, that one can actually experience it for themselves (after some training).
*
The important point here is I can demonstrate my driving to you. Why? Because driving is a natural thing. How would that apply for a supernatural experience?
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:03 PM)
Can you give some examples?
*
SpikeMarlene,

Do you drink coffee??

The next time that you drink coffee, you focus on drinking coffee and tasting the coffee. Do nothing else and think of nothing else. Does the coffee tastes a lot better?? Why??

The coffee did not change. But, YOUR EXPERIENCE in drinking the coffee is better. Hence, the QUALITY of YOUR EXPERIENCE in drinking coffee is better.

Dreamer

soul2soul
post Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM

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On the other hand, there are other schools of thought, for example Theravada which places a lot of emphasis on what the Buddha actually taught, or the type of buddhism that was practiced 2500 years ago when the Buddha himself walked the earth.

For example, Buddha's daily routine from dawn to night, his alms round in the morning where a group of monks would follow him to the town to get food/medicine, and the recorded discourses of him teaching to the people there.


dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:08 PM)
That is not the meaning of living to the fullest. That is being aware of every single action in one's life, which I think is pretty stressful. Being ainware is a good thing but being forcefully aware of every single action is hard and stressful. But why would I want to do that sce living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest, of course within certain limits?
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SpikeMarlene,

<<pretty stressful.>>

Why??

When I drink my coffee, I want to be aware of the FULL RANGE of taste of the coffee. That is JOYFUL.

LIVING is joyful. Being aware just give you a fuller experience.

<<forcefully aware>>

Why does it has to be forcefully aware??

What if that is the NATURAL state of human being to begin with?? It is US that make us into unnatural state of ignorant.

Just watch some babies and toddlers play. All things new are fun to them. They are AWARE of their actions. There are all JOYFUL to them.

<<sce living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest>>

If you are drinking a cup of coffee while thinking and doing a million other things, how could you enjoy the coffee??

Dreamer

SpikeMarlene,

A story on stress.

Once upon a time, I work for a company that had major lay off every 3 months. This lasted many years. Over the last few years, I work for companies that have major lay off every year. I do not feel stress and it is not too bad for me. Meanwhile, for people that do not experience quarterly lay off like I do, this is a major source of stress for them.

What is the DIFFERENCE?? EXPECTATION. I expected quarterly lay off and now it is once a year. So, it is NOT too bad. Others do not expect layoff for many years. But, now, it is once a year. It is BAD.

Who set the EXPECTATION?? We do. The source of STRESS are within US.

I can tell you all those things but until you had experienced it and survived them, you do not really know what you will do under those circumstances.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 10:42 PM
teongpeng
post Aug 15 2010, 11:02 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:13 PM)
What would a blind person see? By saying something unknown and that explains supernatural (another unknown), what are you trying to explain?
you're too dense to understand that something is only supernatural to you because it is unknown to you. and according to you something unknown cannot be possible, thus when something unknown is taught by buddhism...it tarnish the image of the entire teaching. bodoh kan?
QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:13 PM)
The important point here is I can demonstrate my driving to you. Why? Because driving is a natural thing. How would that apply for a supernatural experience?
*
doh.gif
driving is a natural thing to those who know how to drive. just like supernatural experiences are indeed natural to those who know about them.
geeez dude....can u please dont polute a good thread with more dumbass questions?

Now...if we could ignore spikemarlene and his stupid gang of naysayers for a while...i would like to learn a little about dreamer101's approach to zen buddhism and compare it with the more traditional theravada buddhism practised locally. smile.gif

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Aug 15 2010, 11:08 PM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:02 PM)
if we could ignore spikemarlene and his stupid gang of naysayers for a while...i would like to learn a little about dreamer101's approach to zen buddhism and compare it with the more traditional theravada buddhism practised locally.  smile.gif
*
teongpeng,

Zen Buddhism started in China as an integration of Buddhism and Taoism. It is a BACK to BASIC of Buddhism.

This is the poem that started the whole thing.

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

The GOAL or FUNDAMENTAL of Buddhism is that OUR ATTACHMENT cause our suffering. We refuse to accept the REALITY of impermanence.

Zen believes that the THOUGHT / MIND itself is a form of attachment. When we do something and expect certain kind of outcome, our EXPECTATION is a form of attachment. Hence, we suffer.

Taoism destroys DUALITY. There are no good or bad. The world are ever changing and inter-play of Ying and Yang. Hence, the ONLY expectation that we can have is it will change. Aka, impermanence.

Now, if you are in Zen, all is well. You have NO EXPECTATION. You do what you can and you go with the flow. So, where is the ATTACHMENT?? Where is the suffering??

It is an attitude and mind set to life. By destroying DUALITY and EXPECTATION, we destroy ATTACHMENT. We just LIVE as it is. Back to the basic, live like a baby. Just play... Everything is fun and exciting.... Life is just a game. Play hard. Enjoy it.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 11:21 PM
unknown warrior
post Aug 16 2010, 12:22 AM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 09:12 PM)
unknown warrior,

The right word is I feel sorry for you.  But, that is your life and your choice.

Dreamer

P.S.:  My Christian friends are learning Hebrew in order to read "Dead Sea Scroll" directly.  They are working very hard to get as pure and accurate meaning in bible.

P.S.2.:  I am Zen Buddhist.  I do not even believe in reading Sutras.


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Why you want to feel sorry for me? lol. I don't even know why you're so upset.
entryman
post Aug 16 2010, 12:24 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 16 2010, 12:22 AM)
Why you want to feel sorry for me? lol. I don't even know why you're so upset.
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Feel sorry can just be a word out of courtesy.

Or real emotions emanating from true love for humankind.
SUSrandyhow
post Aug 16 2010, 04:27 AM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 11:20 PM)

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

*
lulz.. this poem is from kungfu novel Buddha's Palm level 8.. sound so weird in direct translation...

This post has been edited by randyhow: Aug 16 2010, 04:27 AM
dreamer101
post Aug 16 2010, 04:33 AM

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QUOTE(randyhow @ Aug 16 2010, 04:27 AM)
lulz.. this poem is from kungfu novel Buddha's Palm level 8.. sound so weird in direct translation...
*
randyhow,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

菩提本無樹,
明鏡亦非台;
本來無一物,
何處惹塵埃?

No, it originated from Huineng. Huineng is the Sixth and Last Patriarch of Chán Buddhism.

Dreamer
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 16 2010, 11:15 AM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:02 PM)
you're too dense to understand that something is only supernatural to you because it is unknown to you. and according to you something unknown cannot be possible, thus when something unknown is taught by buddhism...it tarnish the image of the entire teaching. bodoh kan?
In other words you cannot explain what it is you are talking about. It is true because I said so, right?
QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:02 PM)
driving is a natural thing to those who know how to drive. just like supernatural experiences are indeed natural to those who know about them.
geeez dude....can u please dont polute a good thread with more dumbass questions?
*
Here again you claim supernatural experiences are natural only to those who know them, so your argument is basically this. I cannot explain or describe it to you but it's true. Believe me. That line of reasoning has been used ad nausem. You are not spiritually attuned, you would not be able to see the invisible unicorn.


Added on August 16, 2010, 11:42 am
QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM)
SpikeMarlene,

<<pretty stressful.>>

Why??

When I drink my coffee, I want to be aware of the FULL RANGE of taste of the coffee.  That is JOYFUL.

LIVING is joyful.  Being aware just give you a fuller experience.

<<forcefully aware>>

Why does it has to be forcefully aware??

What if that is the NATURAL state of human being to begin with?? It is US that make us into unnatural state of ignorant.

Just watch some babies and toddlers play.  All things new are fun to them.  They are AWARE of their actions.  There are all JOYFUL to them.

<<sce living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest>>

If you are drinking a cup of coffee while thinking and doing a million other things, how could you enjoy the coffee??
I disagree. I enjoy my coffee while having a light conversation with my friend. Or reading the newspaper. Or casually looking into the distance while taking nice slow sips. To me by not being fully aware at that spilt second moment is joyful. I am not sure if you are conflating the issue of not being aware at all, like a person lost in a fantasy, to that of casual awareness which to me is sufficient to enjoy life to the fullest. Since this is quite subjective, I think it will be hard for everyone to agree that being fully aware at every moment is joyful. Again that is subjective what is meant by full and complete awareness.

But here I feel that somehow, there is a necessity for zen practitioner to be fully aware. Why is that? What is the benefit to be fully aware when I can enjoy my life by being casually aware. Well I can raise my awareness depends on the circumstances, like when I feel there is a thief in the house and I am creeping towards the source of the noise.
QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM)
SpikeMarlene,

A story on stress.

Once upon a time, I work for a company that had major lay off every 3 months.  This lasted many years.  Over the last few years, I work for companies that have major lay off every year.  I do not feel stress and it is not too bad for me.  Meanwhile, for people that do not experience quarterly lay off like I do, this is a major source of stress for them.

What is the DIFFERENCE?? EXPECTATION.  I expected quarterly lay off and now it is once a year.  So, it is NOT too bad.  Others do not expect layoff for many years.  But, now, it is once a year.  It is BAD.

Who set the EXPECTATION?? We do.  The source of STRESS are within US.

I can tell you all those things but until you had experienced it and survived them, you do not really know what you will do under those circumstances.

Dreamer
*
I have been to many meditation camps and I know (and also from talking to other practitioners at that time) it was quite stressful to silent one's mind and focus it to what is now.

This post has been edited by SpikeMarlene: Aug 16 2010, 11:42 AM
ray123
post Aug 16 2010, 01:50 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 16 2010, 11:15 AM)
In other words you cannot explain what it is you are talking about. It is true because I said so, right?
*
I don't follow nor agree with everything in the thread but I'm just reminded of the quote:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Carl Sagan
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 16 2010, 03:49 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ Aug 16 2010, 01:50 PM)
I don't follow nor agree with everything in the thread but I'm just reminded of the quote:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Carl Sagan
*
I would somewhat disagree with carl sagan. Why? Absence of evidence is evidence of absence when you are expecting it. If you would apply this quote on something that is completely unknown, which you cannot anticipate the outcome from absence of evidence, then it is reasonable to say we do not know what this means, hence we cannot rule out it's existence.

However for example, a suspect was found bleeding with cut wound on his finger and he was accused of fighting with the victim which he denied. You expect to find traces of the suspect's blood at the crime scene and on the victim's bloodied clothing but you found none that belongs to the suspect. In this case absence of evidence is evidence of absence when you are expecting it.
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post Aug 16 2010, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 16 2010, 03:49 PM)
I would somewhat disagree with carl sagan. Why? Absence of evidence is evidence of absence when you are expecting it. If you would apply this quote on something that is completely unknown, which you cannot anticipate the outcome from absence of evidence, then it is reasonable to say we do not know what this means, hence we cannot rule out it's existence.

However for example, a suspect was found bleeding with cut wound on his finger and he was accused of fighting with the victim which he denied. You expect to find traces of the suspect's blood at the crime scene and on the victim's bloodied clothing but you found none that belongs to the suspect. In this case absence of evidence is evidence of absence when you are expecting it.
*
But according to your example, wouldn't it also mean that the suspect may have cleaned all his traces to avoid suspicion?

SpikeMarlene
post Aug 16 2010, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(Deadlocks @ Aug 16 2010, 04:01 PM)
But according to your example, wouldn't it also mean that the suspect may have cleaned all his traces to avoid suspicion?
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Yes, but how do you know? What do you expect to find to prove your suspicion is valid? If you cannot find it what should you conclude?
SUSDeadlocks
post Aug 16 2010, 04:47 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 16 2010, 04:42 PM)
Yes, but how do you know? What do you expect to find to prove your suspicion is valid? If you cannot find it what should you conclude?
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But that's the reason why there are criminal experts like the CSI right? The point is not to ASSUME that there's no evidence. It simply means that the absence of evidence is as good as the concealment of evidence.
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 16 2010, 05:57 PM

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QUOTE(Deadlocks @ Aug 16 2010, 04:47 PM)
But that's the reason why there are criminal experts like the CSI right? The point is not to ASSUME that there's no evidence. It simply means that the absence of evidence is as good as the concealment of evidence.
*
So what would the CSI conclude? That he is still guilty because they suspect he is hiding some evidence? If you expect the evidence to be there but you cannot find, what can you conclude? On top of that how do you know your suspicion is correct, that he is hiding evidence. You don't know, so as far as we are concern, as long as there is an absence of evidence, it is the evidence of absence when you expect it. Of course this is an example in principle of how investigation of reality proceeds and science does it a lot better because science can take it's time to grill the suspect to death and test it hundreds of times to make sure it is correct.
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post Aug 16 2010, 06:33 PM

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QUOTE(joe_mamak @ Aug 15 2010, 01:14 PM)
Firstly, this thread was started to talk about the previous thread in /k/ that was deleted.  Then it was bumped into RWI and then changed to be a thread on Buddhism.   
nod.gif

Yes, this thread should be for Buddhists and those interested in Buddhism to discuss.  Lets not argue.  Those who exist in the forum just to argue, could you please take it elsewhere? 


Thank you.
*
Then why should this thread be in RWI?

Why not in Kopitiam as those in Christian and Islam thread? There, all trollers get reported and the trolling posts gets removed.
But here i see so many arguments and stuffs, shouldnt it be in All About Religion thread?

This buddhist thread ought to be for buddhists to gather and for others to get to know buddhism, but all i've seen here between SPikemarlene, teongpeng, unknown warrior, dreamer101 etc are all debating!

Why cant this thread be moved to kopitiam?
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post Aug 16 2010, 06:35 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 16 2010, 05:57 PM)
So what would the CSI conclude? That he is still guilty because they suspect he is hiding some evidence? If you expect the evidence to be there but you cannot find, what can you conclude? On top of that how do you know your suspicion is correct, that he is hiding evidence. You don't know, so as far as we are concern, as long as there is an absence of evidence, it is the evidence of absence when you expect it. Of course this is an example in principle of how investigation of reality proceeds and science does it a lot better because science can take it's time to grill the suspect to death and test it hundreds of times to make sure it is correct.
*
Exactly why the investigation has to take place you see. Back in the days when there is no intellect to trace down evidence hidden by criminals, people simply assume that the crime simply has no evidence at all to take place.

But what happened now? Why is there a need to look for truth, that there ARE actually many cases of criminals being smart enough to hide traces of evidences? Have you heard how old, closed cases can be reopened because someone manages to find out the evidence that people didn't use to find?

And it is because of those incidents, people realized that the absence of evidence, is really not the evidence of absence. The idea is not to jump into conclusion without knowledge, it is to investigate for hidden evidences because THEY CAN BE HIDDEN.

QUOTE(joe_mamak @ Aug 10 2010, 06:27 PM)
Ironically, Buddhism can be considered a way of life and not a religion.  smile.gif 

So technically a way of life thread can exist in /k/.
*
Wouldn't that make Buddhism similar to atheism? Atheist too, is not a religion, and they have their own way of lives too.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 16 2010, 06:41 PM

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