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Group LYN Buddhism Retreat - SERIOUS TALK, No trolling please

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TSjoe_mamak
post Aug 15 2010, 01:14 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 12:23 AM)
Honestly I don't see any difference between this thread and All about Religion v2 Thread.
Joe, what's the point of having this when the content of discussion is more less similar?
*
Firstly, this thread was started to talk about the previous thread in /k/ that was deleted. Then it was bumped into RWI and then changed to be a thread on Buddhism.

QUOTE(soul2soul @ Aug 15 2010, 07:35 AM)
Sigh. I think those people who like to argue on Buddhism should take their case to the religion vs non-religion thread. This thread should serve as the avenue for buddhists who like to discuss about their faith like the Christian lounge.

Enough already.

*
nod.gif

Yes, this thread should be for Buddhists and those interested in Buddhism to discuss. Lets not argue. Those who exist in the forum just to argue, could you please take it elsewhere?

Thank you.


SUSrandyhow
post Aug 15 2010, 04:33 PM

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To gogo2,

1) plz forgive my stupidity, but what do u actually mean of suspend belief? Temporary not Belief ? or do u mean suspend dis-belief? Temporary Belief?
plz elaborate...

From what i know Buddhism do encourage doubt and do not support blind belief .. have u heard of Buddhism concept in illusion of reality? being is non-being,.. non-being is being?



2) i strongly agreed with u, generally many belief in Buddhism into superstitious and supernatural, even among those who call themself a buddhist like my mum (she actually a rojak of chinese's rituals + Confucianism + Taoist + Buddhism + Folklores's stories + Urban Legend + TVB's Drama)...

i'm an Atheist myself, i stop burning incense sticks to deities since my teen age days, i did some digging on own cultural knowledge,

a) Taoist - very early type of thinking of the world founded by Lao Tze written in "Tao De Ching" which consist the order of the world( 1 tai chi, 2 ying-yang, 5 elements....) , immortality, chemistry, and.. yes Taoism too consist of philosophy too... but current Taoist are branches out to be
i) Tao Zhia (Direct Translation:Taoist's Family)... The Taoist renounce civilization and meditate in the wild
ii) Tao Zhio (DT: Taoist's Religion)... The Taoist who perform funeral rituals, extort ghost, supernatural + folkslores

b) Confucianism- most early teaching of moral, rituals, reject supernatural and superstitious , society concept.. (want to know more go google)

c) Buddhism- only started to spread to China during the Tang Dynasty 600+ AD. The infamous Monkey God (wukong) and his master in Journey to the West is a fiction base on a true event of a monk who go to India to get the original scripture on Buddhism.. in Historian point of view it is natural when magical and superstitious stuff was adapted into the original story.. (like Batman movie is also off on the original story).. to make it interesting ...
But main essence of Buddhism is not the stories but on the concept of the idea.. if u been arguing that Buddhism is not philosophy, then why do so many professor of philosophy take this as their subject of study?


3) Even in science, don't u also see there's superstitious or supernatural in it? long time ago ppl believe hypnotism is due magnetism of the hypnotist, they believe radioactive radiation do good for ur body, heroin is use as cough sirup ... currently ppl believe in UFO, Monsters, crystal's energy, free energy ....all in the name of science.. Even Quantum Theory is destroying our most logical sense and become magical.. same particle in different place, time bending, space bending .....

Should we denounce science b'cos there some superstitious or supernatural element in it?

-------------

To JoeMamak,
It's okay for debate,.. buddhism do encourage debate... monks in Tibet practice debate every day on the scripture.. but i truely disagreed on being a debate of Buddhist vs Atheists or other religion, b'cos it will end up like a child repeating same phrase "It is so!!" , "It is not so!!" over and over and over again.... i rather the debate of "why why liddat" vs "why why not liddat"... but cant a discussion not end up as a something vs something.. but more on "How, Why or What" direction... seems like some Atheist also have close mind that reject every thing that is not norm to them...

This post has been edited by randyhow: Aug 15 2010, 04:50 PM
El Sol
post Aug 15 2010, 04:57 PM

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Wu Kong = Hatred

The pig = Greed

The I dunno how to call him (wu jing??) = delusion

does this ring a bell??..biggrin.gif hahhaa...symbolic representation of de-attachment..biggrin.gif
birain
post Aug 15 2010, 05:00 PM

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Buddhist got celebrate Qixi Festival(七夕節) or not?
unknown warrior
post Aug 15 2010, 05:31 PM

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QUOTE(soul2soul @ Aug 15 2010, 08:58 AM)
Evangelism in buddhism??? That's something new.  smile.gif  If you want to look at history and the state of the world today, it's the opposite.  Buddhism states are slowly turning into christian states due to the aggressive chrisitian missionaries in South Korea. Previously buddhist places like Afghanistan, Indonesia (borobuddur) have long disappeared.  If you want to talk about the success of evangelism, nothing can beat christians (in the availability of resources) and the muslims (in the conversion by Law). 

Buddhism just offers an alternate view on this world where 99% of religions say there is a Creator. It says the opposite. If you don't like this, no problem dude. But don't make it a case of disliking buddhists for no particular reason just because their belief don't agree with your likings. They don't harm your family , they don't make it a law for you to convert, they don't force you to believe it.  They don't force your girlfriend, your father, your mother, your children to believe it. They don't split your family into "us versus them", they don't see you as evil or 'hell denizens'. They don't call you infidels, they don't wage war against your ancestors or family.

Why the anti-buddhist sentiment among some people here? I don't get it.
*
QUOTE(Cho_Hakkai @ Aug 15 2010, 12:01 PM)
Regarding the bolded part. This may be partly true but if you look from another angle, this shows that there are also some Buddhist teaching that may mislead us to unhappiness. Some of the Buddhist teaching may also mislead the people and you can see it in some of the priest who abuse their power to control the people.

Currently, the only lay organization for Buddhism is Soka Gakkai International (SGI) which is growing now as more and more people are taking faith under it. It organization is under Nichiren Buddhism.

Dreamer101: I may not know much about Zen Buddhism but what you said about it relates to some of SGI concept which is live life to the fullest and regards hardship and problems you are getting as an opportunity for you to improve yourself.
*
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Christianity has it's merits. They are the hidden Truth to be discovered.
Once you know and experience God for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.
zstan
post Aug 15 2010, 05:45 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 05:31 PM)
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Christianity has it's merits. They are the hidden Truth to be discovered.
Once you know and experience God for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.
*
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Buddhism has it's merits. They are the hidden Dhamma to be discovered.
Once you know and experience the Triple Gem for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.

This post has been edited by zstan: Aug 15 2010, 05:46 PM
SUSrandyhow
post Aug 15 2010, 05:51 PM

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禪Zen is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism. The Japanese word Zen is derived from the Chinese word Chán, which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyāna, which means "meditation" or "meditative state."

Zen emphasizes experiential prajñā in the attainment of enlightenment. As such, it de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge in favor of direct realization through meditation and dharma practice. The teachings of Zen include various sources of Mahāyāna thought, including the Prajñāpāramitā literature and the teachings of the Yogācāra and Tathāgatagarbha schools.

The emergence of Zen as a distinct school of Buddhism was first documented in China in the 7th century CE. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, and east to Korea and Japan. As a matter of tradition, the establishment of Zen is credited to the South Indian prince-turned-monk Bodhidharma, who came to China to teach a "special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters".
-Wikipedia
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 05:31 PM)
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Christianity has it's merits. They are the hidden Truth to be discovered.
Once you know and experience God for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.
*
unknown warrior,

The path towards enlightenment is WITHIN you. Why do you need to read a book and argue with people on what the book says to find IT??

That is the DIFFERENCE between Buddhism and Abrahamic Religions.

We encourage doubt and thinking. We encourage CHOICES. It is a PERSONAL JOURNEY. We look WITHIN us to find answer.

God may or may not exists. But, why do you need to read a book to experience God?? If God exists, it should be within us too.

The ANSWER is always here. It is always within us. We are the problem and we are the solution.

YOU feel the NEED to convince OTHERS. Why?? If it is GOOD and RIGHT for us, we will find it. If not, why burden us with something that is WRONG for us??

Why there should be ONLY ONE way?? I don't believe that.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 07:21 PM
unknown warrior
post Aug 15 2010, 08:13 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 15 2010, 05:45 PM)
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Buddhism has it's merits. They are the hidden Dhamma to be discovered.
Once you know and experience the Triple Gem for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.
*
QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 07:19 PM)
unknown warrior,

The path towards enlightenment is WITHIN you.  Why do you need to read a book and argue with people on what the book says to find IT??

That is the DIFFERENCE between Buddhism and Abrahamic Religions.

We encourage doubt and thinking.  We encourage CHOICES.  It is a PERSONAL JOURNEY.  We look WITHIN us to find answer.

God may or may not exists.  But, why do you need to read a book to experience God?? If God exists, it should be within us too.

The ANSWER is always here.  It is always within us.  We are the problem and we are the solution.

YOU feel the NEED to convince OTHERS.  Why??  If it is GOOD and RIGHT for us, we will find it.  If not, why burden us with something that is WRONG for us??

Why there should be ONLY ONE way??  I don't believe that.

Dreamer
*
It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.
To explain why this and that is to invite heated debate.
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 08:55 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 08:13 PM)
It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.
To explain why this and that is to invite heated debate.
*
unknown warrior,

Why should we care about YOUR BELIEF?? That is YOUR PROBLEM for you to solve out. If it works for you, fine. If not, do something else.

Ditto for us. We have to work out on our own what works for us.

<<It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.>>

YOU choose your burden. Being in a Abrahamic Religion, you BELIEVE that there is ONLY one way. Hence, you NEED to argue with EVERYONE else that they are WRONG or their interpretation of the book is wrong.

We are Buddhist. We believe in multiple paths towards Enlightenment. We have neither the NEED or DESIRE to prove OTHERS are wrong. We do not have that BURDEN. All paths are possible and equally valid.

That is the part that you do not understand. This is IRRELEVANT to us.

Dreamer


unknown warrior
post Aug 15 2010, 09:06 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 08:55 PM)
unknown warrior,

Why should we care about YOUR BELIEF?? That is YOUR PROBLEM for you to solve out.  If it works for you, fine.  If not, do something else.

Ditto for us.  We have to work out on our own what works for us.

<<It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.>>

YOU choose your burden.  Being in a Abrahamic Religion, you BELIEVE that there is ONLY one way.  Hence, you NEED to argue with EVERYONE else that they are WRONG or their interpretation of the book is wrong.

We are Buddhist.  We believe in multiple paths towards Enlightenment.  We have neither the NEED or DESIRE to prove OTHERS are wrong.  We do not have that BURDEN.  All paths are possible and equally valid.

That is the part that you do not understand.  This is IRRELEVANT to us.

Dreamer
*
You sounds hurt about Christianity.
SUSgogo2
post Aug 15 2010, 09:08 PM

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QUOTE(randyhow @ Aug 15 2010, 04:33 PM)
To gogo2,

1) plz forgive my stupidity, but what do u actually mean of suspend belief?  Temporary not Belief ? or do u mean suspend dis-belief? Temporary Belief?
plz elaborate...
*
sorry... its my stupidity... i mean, suspend dis-belief.... in another word, have to suspend reality to belief something
supernatural... oh mai... my engris so bad...

well.. i can't debate anymore because i'm not welcome in this thread...lol
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 09:12 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 09:06 PM)
You sounds hurt about Christianity.
*
unknown warrior,

The right word is I feel sorry for you. But, that is your life and your choice.

Dreamer

P.S.: My Christian friends are learning Hebrew in order to read "Dead Sea Scroll" directly. They are working very hard to get as pure and accurate meaning in bible.

P.S.2.: I am Zen Buddhist. I do not even believe in reading Sutras.


Added on August 15, 2010, 9:17 pm
QUOTE(gogo2 @ Aug 15 2010, 09:08 PM)
sorry... its my stupidity... i mean, suspend dis-belief.... in another word, have to suspend reality to belief something
supernatural... oh mai... my engris so bad...

well.. i can't debate anymore because i'm not welcome in this thread...lol
*
gogo2,

1) You say that Buddhism is not right for you. So, we say we wish you best of luck in choosing something else. What is there to debate???

2) We are Buddhist. We believe in multiple paths toward enlightenment. Now, to argue and debate with you mean that we are not Buddhist.

3) The ONLY thing that we want from EVERYONE else is for people to RESPECT everyone's RIGHT to choose and think for themselves.

Dreamer

Folks,

WHY is it so hard for people to understand??

Buddhism is ONE way. It is NOT the only way. We do not claim exclusivity of Universal Truth. How could we anyhow?? It is always there anyhow. It is within us.

Hence, we neither feel the need or desire to convert or convince anyone. If a person wants to find it, all he / she needs to do is to meditate and they will experience it. No external tool are required. If a person does not want it, there are no way for them to get it anyhow.

Dreamer


This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 09:27 PM
zstan
post Aug 15 2010, 09:34 PM

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Reincarnation

Do you Buddhists believe in rebirth as an animal in the next life? Are you going to be a dog or a cow in the future? Does the soul transmigrate into the body of another person or some animal? What is the difference between transmigration and reincarnation? Is it the same as rebirth? Is karma the same as fate? These and a hundred similar questions are often put to me.

A gross misunderstanding of about Buddhism exists today, especially in the notion of reincarnation. The common misunderstanding is that a person has led countless previous lives, usually as an animal, but somehow in this life he is born as a human being and in the next life he will be reborn as an animal, depending on the kind of life he has lived.

This misunderstanding arises because people usually do not know-how to read the sutras or sacred writings. It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

Herein lies our problem. A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality. However, if we learn to go beyond or transcend the parables and myths, we will be able to understand the truth.

People will say "If such is the case why not speak directly so that we will be able to come to an immediate grasp of the truth?" This statement is understandable, but truth is often inexpressible. [Ed comment: we as human beings are limited in understanding "Buddha Knowledge". We cannot speak TRUTH, only words ABOUT Truth] Thus, writers and teachers have often resorted to the language of the imagination to lead the reader from a lower to a higher truth. The doctrine of reincarnation is often understood in this light.

What Reincarnation is Not

Reincarnation is not a simple physical birth of a person; for instance, John being reborn as a cat in the next life. In this case John possesses an immortal soul which transforms to the form of a cat after his death. This cycle is repeated over and over again. Or if he is lucky, he will be reborn as a human being. This notion of the transmigration of the soul definitely does not exist in Buddhism.

Karma

Karma is a Sanskrit word from the root "Kri" to do or to make and simply means "action." It operates in the universe as the continuous chain reaction of cause and effect. It is not only confined to causation in the physical sense but also it has moral implications. "A good cause, a good effect; a bad cause a bad effect" is a common saying. In this sense karma is a moral law.

Now human beings are constantly giving off physical and spiritual forces in all directions. In physics we learn that no energy is ever lost; only that it changes form. This is the common law of conservation of energy. Similarly, spiritual and mental action is never lost. It is transformed. Thus Karma is the law of the conservation of moral energy.

By actions, thoughts, and words, man is releasing spiritual energy to the universe and he is in turn affected by influences coming in his direction. Man is therefore the sender and receiver of all these influences. The entire circumstances surrounding him is his karma.

With each action-influence he sends out and at the same time, receives, he is changing. This changing personality and the world he lives in, constitute the totality of his karma.

Karma should not be confused with fate. Fate is the notion that man's life is preplanned for him by some external power, and he has no control over his destiny. Karma on the other hand, can be changed. Because man is a conscious being he can be aware of his karma and thus strive to change the course of events. In the Dhammapada we find the following words, "All that we are is a result of what we have thought, it is founded on our thoughts and made up of our thoughts."

What we are, then, is entirely dependent on what we think. Therefore, the nobility of man's character is dependent on his"good" thoughts, actions, and words. At the same time, if he embraces degrading thoughts, those thoughts invariably influence him into negative words and actions.

The World

Traditionally, Buddhism teaches the existence of the ten realms of being. At the top is Buddha and the scale descends as follows: Bodhisattva (an enlightened being destined to be a Buddha, but purposely remaining on earth to teach others), Pratyeka Buddha (a Buddha for himself), Sravka (direct disciple of Buddha), heavenly beings (superhuman [angels?]), human beings, Asura (fighting spirits), beasts, Preta (hungry ghosts), and depraved men (hellish beings).

Now, these ten realms may be viewed as unfixed, nonobjective worlds, as mental and spiritual states of mind. These states of mind are created by men's thoughts, actions, and words. In other words, psychological states. These ten realms are "mutually immanent and mutually inclusive, each one having in it the remaining nine realms." For example, the realm of human beings has all the other nine states (from hell to Buddhahood). Man is at the same time capable of real selfishness, creating his own hell, or is truly compassionate, reflecting the compassion of Amida Buddha. Buddhas too have the other nine realms in their minds, for how can a Buddha possibly save those in hell if he himself does not identify with their suffering and guide them to enlightenment.

The Lesson

We can learn a valuable lesson from the teaching of reincarnation.

In what realm do you now live? If you are hungry for power, love, and self-recognition, you live in the Preta world, or hungry ghosts. If you are motivated only by thirsts of the human organism, you are existing in the world of the beast.

Consider well then your motives and intentions. Remember that man is characteristically placed at the midpoint of the ten stages; he can either lower himself abruptly or gradually into hell or through discipline, cultivation and the awakening of faith rise to the Enlightened state of the Buddha.

This post has been edited by zstan: Aug 15 2010, 09:36 PM
zstan
post Aug 15 2010, 09:54 PM

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This is a bit complicated laugh.gif

The Law of Karma


We have come to a couple of related ideas which are common in Buddhism and they are the ideas of karma and rebirth. These ideas are closely inter-related, but because the subject is a fairly wide one, we will begin to deal with the idea of karma todayand rebirth in another lecture.

We know that what binds us in samsara are the defilements — desire, ill-will and ignorance. We spoke about this when we talked about the Second Noble Truth — the truth of the cause of suffering. These defilements are something which every living being in samsara shares, whether we speak of human beings or animals or beings who live in the other realms which we do not normally perceive. In this, all living beings are alike and yet amongst all the living beings that we can normally perceive, there are many differences. For instance, some of us are wealthy, some are less wealthy, some are strong and healthy, others are disabled and so forth. There are many differences amongst living beings and even more so there are differences between animals and human beings. These differences are due to karma.

What we all share - desire, ill-will and ignorance - are common to all living beings, but the particular condition in which we find ourselves is the result of our particular karma that conditions the situation in which we find ourselves, the situation in which we may be wealthy, strong and so forth. These circumstances are decided by karma. It is in this sense that karma explains the differences amongst living beings. It explains why some beings are fortunate while others are less fortunate, some are happy while others are less happy. The Buddha has specifically stated that karma explains the differences between living beings. You might also recall that the understanding of how karma affects the birth of living beings in happy or unhappy circumstances — the knowledge of how living beings move from happy circumstances to unhappy circumstances, and vice versa, from unhappy to happy circumstances as a result of their karma - was part of the Buddha’s experience on the night of His enlightenment. It is karma that explains the circumstances that living beings find themselves in.

Having said this much about the function of karma, let us look more closely at what karma is. Let us define karma. Maybe we can define karma best by first deciding what karma is not. It is quite often the case that we find people misunderstanding the idea of karma. This is particularly true in our daily casual use of the term. We find people saying that one cannot change one’s situation because of one’s karma. In this sense, karma becomes a sort of escape. It becomes similar to predestination or fatalism. This is emphatically not the correct understanding of karma. It is possible that this misunderstanding of karma has come about because of the popular idea that we have about luck and fate. It may be for this reason that our idea of karma has become overlaid in popular thought with the notion of predestination. Karma is not fate or predestination.

If karma is not fate or predestination, then what is it? Let us look at the term itself. Karma means action, means "to do". Immediately we have an indication that the real meaning of karma is not fate because karma is action. It is dynamic. But it is more than simply action because it is not mechanical action. It is not unconscious or involuntary action. It is intentional, conscious, deliberate, willful action. How is it that this intentional, will action conditions or determines our situation? It is because every action must have a reaction, an effect. This truth has been expressed in regard to the physical universe by the great physicist Newton who formulated the law which states that every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. In the moral sphere of conscious actions, we have a counterpart to the physical law of action and reaction, the law that every intentional, will action must have its effect. This is why we sometimes speak either of Karma-Vipaka, intentional action and its ripened effect, or we speak of Karma-Phala, intentional action and its fruit. It is when we speak of intentional action together with its effect or fruit that we speak of the Law of Karma.

In its most basic sense, the Law of Karma in the moral sphere teaches that similar actions will lead to similar results. Let us take an example. If we plant a mango seed, the plant that springs up will be a mango tree, and eventually it will bear a mango fruit. Alternatively, if we plant a Pong Pong seed, the tree that will spring up will be a Pong Pong tree and the fruit a Pong Pong. As one sows, so shall one reap. According to one’s action, so shall be the fruit. Similarly, in the Law of Karma, if we do a wholesome action, eventually we will get a wholesome fruit, and if we do an unwholesome action eventually we will get an unwholesome, painful result. This is what we mean when we say that causes bring about effects that are similar to the causes. This we will see very clearly when we come to specific examples of wholesome and unwholesome actions.

We can understand by means of this general introduction that karma can be of two varieties - wholesome karma or good karma and unwholesome karma or bad karma. In order that we should not misunderstand this description of karma, it is useful for us to look at the original term. In this case, it is kushala or akushala karma, karma that is wholesome or unwholesome. In order that we understand how these terms are being used, it is important that we know the real meaning of kushala and akushala. Kushala means intelligent or skilful, whereas akushala means not intelligent, not skilful. This helps us to understand how these terms are being used, not in terms of good and evil but in terms of skilful and unskilful, in terms of intelligent and unintelligent, in terms of wholesome and unwholesome. Now how wholesome and how unwholesome? Wholesome in the sense that those actions which are beneficial to oneself and others, those actions that spring not out of desire, ill-will and ignorance, but out of renunciation, loving-kindness and compassion, and wisdom.

One may ask how does one know whether an action that is wholesome or unwholesome will produce happiness or unhappiness. The answer is time will tell. The Buddha Himself answered the question. He has explained that so long as an unwholesome action does not bear its fruit of suffering, for so long a foolish person will consider that action good. But when that unwholesome action bears its fruit of suffering then he will realize that the action is unwholesome. Similarly, so long as a wholesome action does not bear its fruit of happiness, a good person may consider that action unwholesome. When it bears its fruit of happiness, then he will realize that the action is good. So one needs to judge wholesome and unwholesome action from the point of view of long-term effect. Very simply, wholesome actions result in eventual happiness for oneself and others, while unwholesome actions have the opposite result, they result in suffering for oneself and others.

Specifically, the unwholesome actions which are to be avoided relate to the three doors or means of action, and these are body, speech and mind. There are three unwholesome actions of the body, four of speech and three of mind that are to be avoided. The three unwholesome actions of body that are to be avoided are killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. The four unwholesome actions of speech that are to be avoided are lying, slander, harsh speech and malicious gossip. The three unwholesome actions of mind that are to be avoided are greed, anger and delusion. By avoiding these ten unwholesome actions we will avoid their consequences. The unwholesome actions have suffering as their fruit. The fruit of these unwholesome actions can take various forms. The fully ripened fruit of the unwholesome actions consists of rebirth in the lower realms, in the realms of suffering — hell, hungry ghosts and animals. If these unwholesome actions are not sufficient to result in rebirth in these lower realms, they will result in unhappiness in this life as a human being. Here we can see at work the principle of a cause resulting in a similar effect. For example, habitual killing which is motivated by ill-will and anger and which results in the taking of the life of other beings will result in rebirth in the hells where one’s experience is saturated by anger and ill-will and where one may be repeatedly killed. If killing is not sufficiently habitual or weighty to result in rebirth in the hells, killing will result in shortened life as a human being, separation from loved ones, fear or paranoia. Here too we can see how the effect is similar to the cause. Killing shortens the life of others, deprives others of their loved ones and so forth, and so if we kill we will be liable to experience these effects. Similarly, stealing which is borne of the defilement of desire may lead to rebirth as a hungry ghost where one is totally destitute of desired objects. If it does not result in rebirth as a ghost, it will result in poverty, dependence upon others for one’s livelihood and so forth. Sexual misconduct results in martial distress or unhappy marriages.

While unwholesome actions produce unwholesome results - suffering, wholesome actions produce wholesome results - happiness. One can interpret wholesome actions in two ways. One can simply regard wholesome actions as avoiding the unwholesome actions, avoiding killing, stealing, sexual misconduct and the rest. Or one can speak of wholesome actions in positive terms. Here one can refer to the list of wholesome actions that includes generosity, good conduct, meditation, reverence, service, transference of merits, rejoicing in the merit of others, hearing the Dharma, teaching the Dharma and straightening of one’s own views. Just as unwholesome actions produce suffering, these wholesome actions produce benefits. Again effects here are similar to the actions. For example, generosity results in wealth. Hearing of the Dharma results in wisdom. The wholesome actions have as their consequences similar wholesome effects just as unwholesome actions have similar unwholesome effects.

Karma, be it wholesome or unwholesome, is modified by the conditions under which the actions are performed. In other words, a wholesome or unwholesome action may be more or less strong depending upon the conditions under which it is done. The conditions which determine the weight or strength of karma may be divided into those which refer to the subject — the doer of the action — and those which refer to the object — the being to whom the action is done. So the conditions that determine the weight of karma apply to the subject and object of the action. Specifically, if we take the example of killing, in order for the act of killing to have its complete and unmitigated power, five conditions must be present — a living being, the awareness of the existence of a living being, the intention to kill the living being, the effort or action of killing the living being, and the consequent death of the living being. Here too, we can see the subjective and the objective conditions. The subjective conditions are the awareness of the living being, the intention to kill and the action of killing. The objective conditions are the presence of the living being and the consequent death of the living being.

Similarly, there are five conditions that modify the weight of karma and they are persistent, repeated action; action done with great intention and determination; action done without regret; action done towards those who possess extraordinary qualities; and action done towards those who have benefited one in the past. Here too there are subjective and objective conditions. The subjective conditions are persistent action; action done with intention; and action done without regret. If one does an unwholesome action again and again with great intention and without regret, the weight of the action will be enhanced. The objective conditions are the quality of the object to whom actions are done and the nature of the relationship. In other words, if one does a wholesome or unwholesome action towards living beings who possess extraordinary qualities such as the arhats, or the Buddha, the wholesome or unwholesome action done will have greater weight. Finally the power of wholesome or unwholesome action done towards those who have benefited one in the past, such as one’s parents, teachers and friends, will be greater.

The objective and subjective conditions together determine the weight of karma. This is important because understanding this will help us to understand that karma is not simply a matter of black and white, or good and bad. Karma is moral action and moral responsibility. But the working of the Law of Karma is very finely tuned and balanced so as to match effect with cause, so as to take into account the subjective and objective conditions that determine the nature of an action. This ensures that the effects of actions are equal to and similar to the nature of the causes.

The effects of karma may be evident either in the short term or in the long term. Traditionally we divide karma into three varieties related to the amount of time that is required for the effects of these actions to manifest themselves. Karma can either manifest its effects in this very life or in the next life or only after several lives. When karma manifests its effects in this life, we can see the fruit of karma within a relatively short length of time. This variety of karma is easily verifiable by any of us. For instance, when someone refuses to study, when someone indulges in harmful distractions like alcohol and drugs, when someone begins to steal to support his harmful habits; the effects will be evident within a short time. They will be evident in loss of livelihood and friendship, health and so forth. We cannot see the long-term effect of karma, but the Buddha and His prominent disciples who have developed their minds are able to perceive directly the long-term effects. For instance, when Maudgalyayana was beaten to death by bandits, the Buddha was able to tell that this event was the effect of something Maudgalyayana had done in a previous life when he had taken his aged parents to the forest and having beaten them to death, had then reported that they had been killed by bandits. The effect of this unwholesome action done many lives before was manifested only in his last life. At death we have to leave everything behind — our property and our loved ones, but our karma will accompany us like a shadow. The Buddha has said that nowhere on earth or in heaven can one escape one’s karma. So when the conditions are correct, dependent upon mind and body, the effects of karma will manifest themselves just as dependent on certain conditions a mango will appear on a mango tree. We can see that even in the world of nature certain effects take longer to appear than others. If for instance, we plant the seed of a papaya, we will obtain the fruit in shorter period than if we plant the seed of a durian. Similarly, the effects of karma manifest either in the short term or in the long term.

Besides the two varieties of karma, wholesome and unwholesome karma, we should mention neutral or ineffective karma. Neutral karma is karma that has no moral consequence either because the very nature of the action is such as to have no moral consequence or because it is done involuntarily and unintentionally. For example, sleeping, walking, breathing, eating, handicraft and so forth in themselves have no moral consequence. Similarly, unintentional action is ineffective karma. In other words, if one accidentally steps on an insect, being unconscious of its existence, this also constitutes neutral karma because there is no intention - the intentional element is not there.

The benefits of understanding the Law of Karma are that this understanding discourages one from performing unwholesome actions which have suffering as their fruit. Once we understand that in our own life every action will have a similar and equal reaction, once we understand that we will experience the effect of that action, wholesome or unwholesome, we will refrain from unwholesome behavior, not wanting to experience the effects of these unwholesome actions. And similarly, understanding that wholesome actions have happiness as their fruit, we will cultivate these wholesome actions. Reflecting on the Law of Karma, of action and reaction in the moral sphere encourages us to renounce unwholesome actions and cultivate wholesome actions. We will look more closely at the specific effects of karma in future lives and how karma conditions and determines the nature of rebirth in our lecture next week.

Extract from "Fundamentals of Buddhism", by Dr. Peter Della Santina.
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 09:54 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 15 2010, 09:34 PM)
Reincarnation
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zstan,

In Zen Buddhism, re-incarnation, karma, and realms are IRRELEVANT.

To have NO ATTACHMENT, those thoughts do not exist. You do the BEST that you can. You should have NO THOUGHT and NO ATTACHMENT to the outcome. You do because you are here and you can.

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

All is well....
- "The 3 Idiots"

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zstan
post Aug 15 2010, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 09:54 PM)
zstan,

In Zen Buddhism, re-incarnation, karma, and realms are IRRELEVANT.

To have NO ATTACHMENT, those thoughts do not exist.  You do the BEST that you can.  You should have NO THOUGHT and NO ATTACHMENT to the outcome.  You do because you are here and you can.

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

All is well....
- "The 3 Idiots"

Dreamer
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this thread is a Buddhist thread. not a Zen Buddhist thread. Yes they may seem irrelevant to you, but other people find it relevant.

Just sharing some other aspects of Buddhism knowledge with people who wants to understand more about what is reincarnation. smile.gif
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 15 2010, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 10:37 AM)
]the difference is in the quality.
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Can you give some examples?
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:07 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 15 2010, 09:58 PM)
this thread is a Buddhist thread. not a Zen Buddhist thread. Yes they may seem irrelevant to you, but other people find it relevant.

Just sharing some other aspects of Buddhism knowledge with people who wants to understand more about what is reincarnation.  smile.gif
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zstan,

Ditto.

MY POINT is in certain school of Buddhism like Zen Buddhism, those concepts are not consider as ESSENTIAL to the teaching of Buddhism.

Dreamer
SpikeMarlene
post Aug 15 2010, 10:08 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 10:59 AM)
SpikeMarlene,

Zen is living life to the fullest.  What else is there besides living??

Every morning, I enjoy a good cup of coffee.  I take my effort to slowly sip and enjoy my coffee.  That is a form of meditation.  Doing thing as it is.  Only mindful of coffee and nothing else.  That is a simple joy for me.  What do you do for yourself everyday??

When I do something, I put my full concentration and effort in it.  I do the best that I could.  I focus on the moment.  That is living to the fullest.

Dreamer
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That is not the meaning of living to the fullest. That is being aware of every single action in one's life, which I think is pretty stressful. Being aware is a good thing but being forcefully aware of every single action is hard and stressful. But why would I want to do that since living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest, of course within certain limits?

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