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Group LYN Buddhism Retreat - SERIOUS TALK, No trolling please

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dreamer101
post Aug 14 2010, 08:55 PM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Aug 14 2010, 12:15 PM)
do you agree? somehow saying buddhism is
teaching is misleading
yes there is...in my context...
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gogo2,

You disagreed with one type of Buddhism, But, that is NOT the only kind of Buddhism. Buddhism is not like those Abrahamic religion where there is ONLY one way.

Buddhism do not believe that you have to believe in Buddhism in order to reach enlightenment either.

There are Buddhism that believe re-incarnation and all those supernatural stuff are necessary. And, there are those like Zen Buddhism that could not care for this.

<<somehow saying buddhism is teaching is misleading>>

Honey to someone is poison to others. If this does not work for you, do something else.

Fundamentally, Buddhism believe that all the answers are WITHING us. We do not have to look outside to get it. Now, how do you reach enlightenment, there are many ways. Pick the one that works for you.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 01:49 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 12:45 AM)
Well said. It is exactly the stuff that i was arguing with these buddhists and some of them even got mad at me. LOL. I was really surprised at that time because like what you said buddhists being wise and reasonable, practice some form of detachment but yet they displayed the same behavior as would believers of abrahamic religions, taunting and cursing.

Buddhism is a religion and it has supernatural elements. While it's philosophical views of life may be enlightening, you need to have faith to believe.
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SpikeMarlene,

<< Buddhism is a religion and it has supernatural elements. While it's philosophical views of life may be enlightening, you need to have faith to believe.>>

Who say so??

One type of Buddhism has supernatural elements. You DO NOT have to believe in that kind of Buddhism. You can choose something else.

For example, can you claim that Tibetan Buddhism to represent all kinds of Buddhisms??

Just because one dog is black, it does not mean all dogs are black.

For example, Zen Buddhism do not care about re-incarnation and all those super-natural stuff at all. Zen Buddhism does not care about any sutra at all.

Dreamer

P.S.: For a TRUE Buddhist, there is NO POINT in arguing with anyone. If it works for you, choose this. If not, do something else. There are NO BROWNIE point for making people to believe in Buddhism.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 01:59 AM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 02:11 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 02:05 AM)
So what does zen buddhism have?
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SpikeMarlene,

Just live your life. Do the RIGHT stuff and avoid doing the WRONG stuff. Back to the basic.

KNOWING is NEVER the problem. People KNOW. They just cannot DO. Reading more sutras will not help since KNOWING is never the problem to begin with.

Focus on doing and everything will be fine....

Let your living be a form of meditation.

Dreamer

http://goto.bilkent.edu.tr/gunes/ZEN/zenstories.htm

When Tired

A student once asked his teacher,

"Master, what is enlightenment?"

The master replied,

"When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep."


This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 02:15 AM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 08:50 AM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Aug 15 2010, 08:24 AM)
There's no type of Buddhism. Every buddhism that you go into will somehow leads you to supernatural stuff. Even the core of it like
rebirth also involve faith because you need to belief that it exist.

Your whole statement just so so typical of evagelism of Buddhism. Very soft approaching. Very nice to hear. Very enlightenening.
But once delve deeper, it is not so. Welcome to Buddhism 101.
Buddhist just love to tell story. Furthermore, they will spin around and around about their belief until your kepala pusing. That's why
it will make Buddhism very very high level of religion in intelect. I really think almost all Buddhist attain higher intelectual in religion
than Christian.
Oh, I thought this is for case against Buddhism?

I thought Christian lounge is in Kopitiam section? THey move here already? OMG...

Sorry sorry..

I thought RWI thread is serious discussion with high intellectuality and high impact and not only one sided. sweat.gif
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gogo2,

<< There's no type of Buddhism. Every buddhism that you go into will somehow leads you to supernatural stuff. Even the core of it like
rebirth also involve faith because you need to belief that it exist.>>

Not in Zen Buddhism.

<< Your whole statement just so so typical of evagelism of Buddhism. Very soft approaching. Very nice to hear. Very enlightenening.
But once delve deeper, it is not so. Welcome to Buddhism 101.>>

As per your opinion. There is NOTHING deeper in Zen Buddhism. It is BACK to the BASIC. It is SIMPLE. Why does Buddhism has to be HARD??

<<Oh, I thought this is for case against Buddhism?>>

If Buddhism does not work for you, choose something else. What is the problem here?? There are more than one way to reach enlightenment, What is there to against?? It is a PERSONAL CHOICE.

Buddhism is not one of those Abrahamic Religion.

A) We do not claim that it is the ONLY way. In fact, we acknowledge that there are multiple ways to reach enlightenment.

B) There are NO CONVERSION. You can come and go as you please.

C) Enlightenment is a personal journey. Nobody can do it for you. Ditto, nobody can do it for me. And, it is NOT a popularity contest. Just because more people believe in something, it does not mean it is RIGHT for you. You have to find your own way.

<<I thought RWI thread is serious discussion with high intellectuality and high impact >>

What is there to discuss??

You have AN OPINION on one kind of Buddhism, You BELIEVE that it does not work for you. So, to that, I will say best of luck to you. I hope that you find something else that works for you.

As a TRUE BUDDHIST, I want you to find whatever works for you. Why is it so difficult to understand this??

Dreamer




dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 09:07 AM

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QUOTE(soul2soul @ Aug 15 2010, 08:58 AM)

Why the anti-buddhist sentiment among some people here? I don't get it.

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soul2soul,

Some people cannot stand the idea that Buddhists are not BUSYBODIES like everyone else. We DO NOT CARE what religion that people believe. They cannot stand religious tolerance.

WE represent another option. Aka, everyone do not have to convert into religion X in order for the world to be at peace and fine.

The PROBLEM is if we are CORRECT, the WHOLE BS about you must be religion X in order to be MORAL falls apart.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 09:36 AM)
So zen is nothing more than living your life the way you want to?
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SpikeMarlene,

Zen is about REALLY living your life.

You will be surprised on how hard is it to do that.

Dreamer

dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:37 AM)
I am really living my life as it is. Is that zen then? Or is there something I miss in my life?
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SpikeMarlene,

If you do, how could you miss ANYTHING?? You had done what you could at every moment of your life. What else is there??

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:59 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:40 AM)


Added on August 15, 2010, 10:41 am
So what is zen then, if there is nothing more than living?
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SpikeMarlene,

Zen is living life to the fullest. What else is there besides living??

Every morning, I enjoy a good cup of coffee. I take my effort to slowly sip and enjoy my coffee. That is a form of meditation. Doing thing as it is. Only mindful of coffee and nothing else. That is a simple joy for me. What do you do for yourself everyday??

When I do something, I put my full concentration and effort in it. I do the best that I could. I focus on the moment. That is living to the fullest.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 05:31 PM)
Actually what are you guys afraid of?
Christianity has it's merits. They are the hidden Truth to be discovered.
Once you know and experience God for yourself, you will never look at it with fear nor contempt.
*
unknown warrior,

The path towards enlightenment is WITHIN you. Why do you need to read a book and argue with people on what the book says to find IT??

That is the DIFFERENCE between Buddhism and Abrahamic Religions.

We encourage doubt and thinking. We encourage CHOICES. It is a PERSONAL JOURNEY. We look WITHIN us to find answer.

God may or may not exists. But, why do you need to read a book to experience God?? If God exists, it should be within us too.

The ANSWER is always here. It is always within us. We are the problem and we are the solution.

YOU feel the NEED to convince OTHERS. Why?? If it is GOOD and RIGHT for us, we will find it. If not, why burden us with something that is WRONG for us??

Why there should be ONLY ONE way?? I don't believe that.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 07:21 PM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 08:55 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 08:13 PM)
It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.
To explain why this and that is to invite heated debate.
*
unknown warrior,

Why should we care about YOUR BELIEF?? That is YOUR PROBLEM for you to solve out. If it works for you, fine. If not, do something else.

Ditto for us. We have to work out on our own what works for us.

<<It's okay I'm not trying to convert you guys.>>

YOU choose your burden. Being in a Abrahamic Religion, you BELIEVE that there is ONLY one way. Hence, you NEED to argue with EVERYONE else that they are WRONG or their interpretation of the book is wrong.

We are Buddhist. We believe in multiple paths towards Enlightenment. We have neither the NEED or DESIRE to prove OTHERS are wrong. We do not have that BURDEN. All paths are possible and equally valid.

That is the part that you do not understand. This is IRRELEVANT to us.

Dreamer


dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 09:12 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2010, 09:06 PM)
You sounds hurt about Christianity.
*
unknown warrior,

The right word is I feel sorry for you. But, that is your life and your choice.

Dreamer

P.S.: My Christian friends are learning Hebrew in order to read "Dead Sea Scroll" directly. They are working very hard to get as pure and accurate meaning in bible.

P.S.2.: I am Zen Buddhist. I do not even believe in reading Sutras.


Added on August 15, 2010, 9:17 pm
QUOTE(gogo2 @ Aug 15 2010, 09:08 PM)
sorry... its my stupidity... i mean, suspend dis-belief.... in another word, have to suspend reality to belief something
supernatural... oh mai... my engris so bad...

well.. i can't debate anymore because i'm not welcome in this thread...lol
*
gogo2,

1) You say that Buddhism is not right for you. So, we say we wish you best of luck in choosing something else. What is there to debate???

2) We are Buddhist. We believe in multiple paths toward enlightenment. Now, to argue and debate with you mean that we are not Buddhist.

3) The ONLY thing that we want from EVERYONE else is for people to RESPECT everyone's RIGHT to choose and think for themselves.

Dreamer

Folks,

WHY is it so hard for people to understand??

Buddhism is ONE way. It is NOT the only way. We do not claim exclusivity of Universal Truth. How could we anyhow?? It is always there anyhow. It is within us.

Hence, we neither feel the need or desire to convert or convince anyone. If a person wants to find it, all he / she needs to do is to meditate and they will experience it. No external tool are required. If a person does not want it, there are no way for them to get it anyhow.

Dreamer


This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 09:27 PM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 09:54 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 15 2010, 09:34 PM)
Reincarnation
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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zstan,

In Zen Buddhism, re-incarnation, karma, and realms are IRRELEVANT.

To have NO ATTACHMENT, those thoughts do not exist. You do the BEST that you can. You should have NO THOUGHT and NO ATTACHMENT to the outcome. You do because you are here and you can.

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

All is well....
- "The 3 Idiots"

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:07 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 15 2010, 09:58 PM)
this thread is a Buddhist thread. not a Zen Buddhist thread. Yes they may seem irrelevant to you, but other people find it relevant.

Just sharing some other aspects of Buddhism knowledge with people who wants to understand more about what is reincarnation.  smile.gif
*
zstan,

Ditto.

MY POINT is in certain school of Buddhism like Zen Buddhism, those concepts are not consider as ESSENTIAL to the teaching of Buddhism.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:03 PM)
Can you give some examples?
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SpikeMarlene,

Do you drink coffee??

The next time that you drink coffee, you focus on drinking coffee and tasting the coffee. Do nothing else and think of nothing else. Does the coffee tastes a lot better?? Why??

The coffee did not change. But, YOUR EXPERIENCE in drinking the coffee is better. Hence, the QUALITY of YOUR EXPERIENCE in drinking coffee is better.

Dreamer

dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 15 2010, 10:08 PM)
That is not the meaning of living to the fullest. That is being aware of every single action in one's life, which I think is pretty stressful. Being ainware is a good thing but being forcefully aware of every single action is hard and stressful. But why would I want to do that sce living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest, of course within certain limits?
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SpikeMarlene,

<<pretty stressful.>>

Why??

When I drink my coffee, I want to be aware of the FULL RANGE of taste of the coffee. That is JOYFUL.

LIVING is joyful. Being aware just give you a fuller experience.

<<forcefully aware>>

Why does it has to be forcefully aware??

What if that is the NATURAL state of human being to begin with?? It is US that make us into unnatural state of ignorant.

Just watch some babies and toddlers play. All things new are fun to them. They are AWARE of their actions. There are all JOYFUL to them.

<<sce living to the fullest means I enjoy my life to the fullest>>

If you are drinking a cup of coffee while thinking and doing a million other things, how could you enjoy the coffee??

Dreamer

SpikeMarlene,

A story on stress.

Once upon a time, I work for a company that had major lay off every 3 months. This lasted many years. Over the last few years, I work for companies that have major lay off every year. I do not feel stress and it is not too bad for me. Meanwhile, for people that do not experience quarterly lay off like I do, this is a major source of stress for them.

What is the DIFFERENCE?? EXPECTATION. I expected quarterly lay off and now it is once a year. So, it is NOT too bad. Others do not expect layoff for many years. But, now, it is once a year. It is BAD.

Who set the EXPECTATION?? We do. The source of STRESS are within US.

I can tell you all those things but until you had experienced it and survived them, you do not really know what you will do under those circumstances.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 10:42 PM
dreamer101
post Aug 15 2010, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Aug 15 2010, 11:02 PM)
if we could ignore spikemarlene and his stupid gang of naysayers for a while...i would like to learn a little about dreamer101's approach to zen buddhism and compare it with the more traditional theravada buddhism practised locally.  smile.gif
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teongpeng,

Zen Buddhism started in China as an integration of Buddhism and Taoism. It is a BACK to BASIC of Buddhism.

This is the poem that started the whole thing.

Bodhi is not a tree.
The mirror has no stand.
If there is nothing here,
Where is the dust??

The GOAL or FUNDAMENTAL of Buddhism is that OUR ATTACHMENT cause our suffering. We refuse to accept the REALITY of impermanence.

Zen believes that the THOUGHT / MIND itself is a form of attachment. When we do something and expect certain kind of outcome, our EXPECTATION is a form of attachment. Hence, we suffer.

Taoism destroys DUALITY. There are no good or bad. The world are ever changing and inter-play of Ying and Yang. Hence, the ONLY expectation that we can have is it will change. Aka, impermanence.

Now, if you are in Zen, all is well. You have NO EXPECTATION. You do what you can and you go with the flow. So, where is the ATTACHMENT?? Where is the suffering??

It is an attitude and mind set to life. By destroying DUALITY and EXPECTATION, we destroy ATTACHMENT. We just LIVE as it is. Back to the basic, live like a baby. Just play... Everything is fun and exciting.... Life is just a game. Play hard. Enjoy it.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 15 2010, 11:21 PM
dreamer101
post Aug 16 2010, 04:33 AM

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QUOTE(randyhow @ Aug 16 2010, 04:27 AM)
lulz.. this poem is from kungfu novel Buddha's Palm level 8.. sound so weird in direct translation...
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randyhow,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

菩提本無樹,
明鏡亦非台;
本來無一物,
何處惹塵埃?

No, it originated from Huineng. Huineng is the Sixth and Last Patriarch of Chán Buddhism.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Aug 16 2010, 06:50 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Aug 16 2010, 11:15 AM)



Added on August 16, 2010, 11:42 am
I disagree. I enjoy my coffee while having a light conversation with my friend. Or reading the newspaper. Or casually looking into the distance while taking nice slow sips. To me by not being fully aware at that spilt second moment is joyful. I am not sure if you are conflating the issue of not being aware at all, like a person lost in a fantasy, to that of casual awareness which to me is sufficient to enjoy life to the fullest. Since this is quite subjective, I think it will be hard for everyone to agree that being fully aware at every moment is joyful. Again that is subjective what is meant by full and complete awareness.

But here I feel that somehow, there is a necessity for zen practitioner to be fully aware. Why is that? What is the benefit to be fully aware when I can enjoy my life by being casually aware. Well I can raise my awareness depends on the circumstances, like when I feel there is a thief in the house and I am creeping towards the source of the noise. 

I have been to many meditation camps and I know (and also from talking to other practitioners at that time) it was quite stressful to silent one's mind and focus it to what is now.
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SpikeMarlene,

To you, not being focus is YOUR HABIT. Hence, it is STRESSFUL for you to focus on ONE THING only.

Ditto, for people that TREAT meditation as an out of ordinary thing.

But, as we had said again and before, there are MANY PATHS to enlightenment, choose what works for you...

<<What is the benefit to be fully aware when I can enjoy my life by being casually aware.>>

There are multiple stages. MINDFULNESS is just stage one. MINDLESSNESS is the stage 2.

Now, the question is have you try being fully aware and whether the quality of life is better for you by doing that??

The GOAL of Zen is to form and integrate meditation into daily life. Aka, a habit.

Now, I am slightly AUTISTIC. For me, FOCUS is my natural state. I can multitask but that is NOT NATURAL for me. Hence, it is STRESSFUL for me.

Dreamer

 

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