what is the right path? are there right and wrong paths? or just paths we choose?

like u said, if the existence of life after death is unproven. why are people working towards something no one can even be sure of?

what i meant by the right path is being good, not evil.
don't religions promote good moral values and stuff?

because as humans, we hate insecurities.
when we are unsure of something, we try to make something up/link it so that we can be able to feel secure.
like how the moon has got a rabbit 'shadow', how mars has got a face shaped mountain or something.
people made up life after death thing was probably to have a sense of security in their life, knowing that if they have done good things, they will end up having a better after life.

then again, this is what i think and everything is from my perspective.
you can disagree with it though. =)

Cheryl,

Who decides what is good and what is evil? Most think that genocide is 'evil', but the Rwandan dictator in the early 90s would disagree, claiming it improves the gene pool. Likewise, Hitler thought so too. A less radical example would be stem cell research. The Pope and some Catholics (fortunately not all), strongly opposes stem cell research, but most scientist and perhaps the community at large have no problems with it.

I apologise as I realise there should be no debate in this threat. Hence, I will include my personal views below.


Personally, I believe humans do not need religion to survive. On an individual level, I am living proof. On a community level, one theory suggests that religion was created to control society. That seems like a plausible theory. A government can only do so much to control its citizens, and behind closed doors, they are powerless. What can be better to fix this than to create "god" which is omniscient and omnipotent and hence knows what you do in the comfort of your own homes and even what you think? Following that, all they had to do was tell you what "god" think is right or wrong, which in reality, is their own views. And of course, heaven and hell. This also explains why religion is almost always associated with politics (conservatives/liberals).

By this theory, religion has done humans good. But, this was all pre-enlightenment. Since the rise of science, religions have not evolved or adapted to this new understanding of humanity. Hence, now it is in fact impeding the developments of science. Obviously, this theory also suggests that "god" was created by humans, but this topic is about religion, not god.

You could argue that it still does serve to control the behaviour of humans, if we remove the obstacles it presents to science. However, Thoreau would argue that every human beings have their own conscience, and most would agree with this. So, if we do have our own conscience, why do we need entities such as a church or the pope or even god to tell us what is right and what is wrong? Should we not decide for ourselves? The pope has a very radical stance on many issues. Contraception, stem cell, abortion etc. But most Catholics do not explicitly agree with them. This proves that even with religion, humans make their own choices, so there really is no "NEED" for a religion.

Although I am not against religions, as I believe every individual should have the right to believe or not to believe in a god or religion, and religion does make some people happier, though it does make some others miserable, being an atheist, not only do I strongly disagree when people say atheists are immoral, but sometimes, it is blatantly obvious that I have higher moral values than many of those with religion. So, to answer your question in short, no, I do not believe humans NEED religion. And religion is NOT necessary to have good moral values.

in reply to thesupertramp,

If humans indeed do not NEED religion, this thread wouldn't have existed. History has proved that religions have suffered persecution through the ages and still survive in this Age of Tecnology. Why do we still rely on religion when we fully realize that Man can achieve anything with the power of Science?

I believe it is due to few factors for instance, as cheryl pointed out, a sense of security. Some people prefer a better answer to "What is my purpose in life?" than " You are just a naturally evolved carbon-based lifeform, who sleeps, eats, farts, and then die." I know atheist friends who don't think about dying at all cuz it just depresses them that their self-enlightenment revealed that there isn't a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow after all.

Btw the government did not create the concept of God. Since our nenek moyang crawled out of caves, it was already embedded in our psyche, and yours. Who knows, you may be on your death bed one day, desperate to live. Something snaps, and you call upon God to save you.

This post has been edited by Boolean: Dec 3 2009, 02:30 AM

do note that religion did cause the most deaths in the human's history. the war of the crusades which involved mainly the christians and the muslims and many others that was eventually dragged by the net of conflict. then there was the arab conquests, which spilt many blood of the innocence in the name of spreading the name of allah and expanding the religion itself. and nearer to our times, the holy war, jihad, and i believe i need not describe the damages it had done.

as how i see it, we have grown and evolved so far down the line that we no longer are barbarians living in primitive nature. we no longer need a sense of security from the above to tell us what is right or wrong, as much as it is subjective, we may well have established what is right or wrong in our contemporary conscience.

modern men have principles of their own, taught and experienced through their life long learnings. a wrong can be corrected by the judiciary's law and regulations. we can survive without religion now, or otherwise, doomed by the wars perpetuated by religion. as it is the only thing that it is contributing to our society now as it seems.

Meh, we humans love to fight. Differences are the catalyst. If not religion, race, wealth difference, social status etc will be reasons for conflict. Take a look at the wars with most deaths in history. The causes of the conflicts are very varied.

religion did precipitate most of them anyway.

rather than intertwines peace as much as it promotes, it predicates hatred toward the ones of different beliefs.

that's the player, not the game.

religion has been used by certain people for their own interests, or rulers as an excuse to trump rivals for centuries. there's where u get all these 'religious' wars.

hate the player, not the game.

same goes to politics....

With regards to your first paragraph, wrong. Religion's popularity has been facing a decline in the last century or so. It is indeed still around, but that does not prove it has survived the struggle. You wouldn't expect it to just disappear overnight, do you? Furthermore, not everyone is aware of science, or its implications. Not everyone understands how scientific studies are carried out, and the progress it has made since its rise during the enlightenment era. But trends do exist to show that the higher an individual's understanding of science is, the higher the likelihood of them being an agnostic or an atheist. The best example being that most scientist, even in conservative America, are agnostic or atheist.

As to the question of death and the meaning of life, if those atheist friends of yours are so afraid and depressed at the prospect of death, why don't they embrace a religion that promises an afterlife? I would think doing so would be more reasonable than remaining depressed. Are you sure they aren't your imaginary friends? As far as I'm concerned, I know of no atheist that is depressed at the thought of death. If you need the existence of a god or a heaven to feel fulfilled in life, one ought to question what exactly are you doing with your life. Are you not happy with the life you are currently living? I subscribe to the philosophical theory known as Absurdism. It states that any quest to search for an extrinsic meaning to life will inevitably fail. Hence, it is best to live by the principle of: the meaning of life is the meaning you give it. This has yet to fail me, and I have never been as enlightened in life since I understood this concept.

As for your last paragraph, by your concept, dogs, fish and worms too believe in the existence of god? Or do you not believe humans came about from evolution? Our change from apes was gradual. At which point did god enter our "psyche"? In fact, Darwin stated in his book The Descent of Man page 93 that, "There is no evidence that man was aboriginally endowed with the ennobling belief in the existence of an Omnipotent God." He even goes on to say that many "savage races" do not even have a word for "god". So, no, your theory is flawed. Plus, in line with Darwin's evidence, is it any surprise that most religions originated from civilised societies?

Finally, there is no reason for me to call on god to save me from dying. There are ample studies done to show that praying does not cure diseases, or even improve a condition. Additionally, I find it hypocritical of you to feel "desperate to live" since you claim your believe in god makes you not fear death.

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Dec 4 2009, 01:04 AM

basically i am kinda agree with thesupertramp,
religion is someting that split human apart,
and yet they are fighting for someting which they dont even really know the so call god exist or not. Something more like imaginary friend. tats totally stupid.

god or no god, hell or heaven , ppl should know wat is right wat is wrong
tats simple common sense. Just because of religion , ppl cant see wats right and wats wrong, and just follow wat those rules or saying in their religion. Those ppl are totally brainwashed.

religion is certainly a great 'tool' ... together with a code of law, it helps to create order in the society ... and order is needed for a civilization to flourish ... but well, that's only from a computer game ...

U are generalizing here
Not every christian as obedient to god like what u think, same goes to not all atheist the same like they all afraid of dying and feel no meaning of life or whatsoever
There are many diff kind of ppl out there, i believe i dont need to tell u all this but just as reminder.
Dont sounds like everyone the same and all atheist is actually dont believe in god and think that living in this world is meaningless
Me as an example for u, live in this world without religion, probably dont need one later on, get myself to live my life to the fullest to enjoy my way of living, sometimes i do wonder if there is a god i will thanks him, but not thinking that he actually grant me of this, just think im lucky.
For those ppl u say who fail their life, maybe they do need a religion.
But how can u ensure religion promise a life after death?
It do mention in most of the religion teaching, but after all it still goes back to the question,
whether is truth or belief.
Religion is a belief of ur ownself, its possible that a life after death is not exist, and ur "soul"(provided that there's one) will go to the same place or vanish like atheist, this is possible thru
So u cant really ensure there is life after death, thats why ppl out thr who afraid of dying(consider me as well) still dont get themselves into religion when understanding this possibility

Anti-informatics,
I believe you are confusing atheist and agnostics. You would be an agnostic, not an atheist.

As for generalising, if the believers do not fully adhere to their religions, it would mean even they recognise the flaws of their own religion. Thus further proving my point that religion is out of date.

sometimes it's not that they dont want to, it's cos it simply takes such great effort and commitment. i find it tough, and not cos there are flaws.

Thumbs up

I sometimes wonder why humans argue over life after death when there is absolutely no way for us to find out.

^Maybe you can hear out those who have experienced "near death experience".

Among the common experience are....

Their "spirit" was separated from the body, meaning they could see their own body there, sometimes in a hospital where doctors are trying to resusitate him/her,

They go through a "tunnel" and a bright white line at the end of it,

They go through a life review, things that they've done that has impacted life of others, be it good or bad,

They felt very blissfull and loved, really really very loved. All the questions that they had were answered by themselves, they had no questions,

Meeting with "supernatural" beings and given a choice to stay or to return. Conversation done through telepathic means.

there has been also instances where one can remember its past life.
it has been documented in the discovery channel show.
the little kid, around 7 years old, if i am not mistaken was crying day and night saying that he wants to meet his parents when his biological parents is right there with him.
then it turned out that he was talking about his past life - telling his biological parents where he stayed, who he was in his past life and picturing his parents from past life. they tried finding his past life's parents and turned out that whatever he said to his biological parents is true.
well, that little kid was only 7! is there possibility that he is lying?

plus, there has been christians who gone to heaven and back. they have also published books. how far it is true, i have no idea. i have not read the book.

these are the reasons why the believers choose to trust religion. though we may not be experiencing it first hand but we can hear from others who are lucky/unlucky in a way. (=

In that case, is it then true to say that religion are impractical?

Catholics are against abortion, but many undergo abortions. Why?

If an individual believes murder is a sin but goes on to commit one anyway, is he a better person than all the other murderers?


EDIT:
For the record, atheist do not deny the existence of heaven or hell, nor god. They simple believe there are no evidence for the contrary. It is for this reason most vocal atheists (with a few exceptions) do not have a problem with people believing in a religion. They simply do not want religion to interfere with government policies, or contradicting science for no other reason than "because god says so."

Like I said before, I am happy for you to believe in a religion if that makes you happy, but thinking you are morally superior to me just because I lack a religion, is just plain stupid. If you think abortion, sex before marriage, contraception etc is against your believes, fine with me. But don't try to get it passed as a law, or preach it onto others.

You don't see atheist attacking Buddhists.

PS. I also do not believe religious institutions deserve tax exempt status, unless their main purpose is for non-discriminatory, charitable works.

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Dec 5 2009, 11:16 PM