well it could be the same reason 1 of my h.longimanus died. some kind of bettle or fly must have laid an egg and the larva got in and eaten it from the inside out. when i discovered it dead it look normal but when i turn it around there was a gaping hole near the genital opecolum.

what made it is still a mystery.

sorry for the loss bro.. my thought is some fly or insect manage to penetrate the scorps newly exo and manage to plant in some eggs in. While time goes by it evolved into worms and it might have eaten its way out slowly.. time after time the scorp dies and the crix may eaten and thus the ants come in... thats my thoughts.

Well, if that is the case he should find maggots in his enclosure instead of ants isn't it?

not nessarally.. it takes only a week for a larvae to turn into bugs.. so it may have took flight after it bursts out... but this is just a theory.. even though if there is maggots left, the ants would have take them by now..

He did mention that it is doing fine at 2am and only found it dead in 6am so that pretty much busted the theory of maggot infection

well.... i dunno.. ants do come in large numbers..and they can carry stuff 2x heavier then its size.. and plus with those numbers they can clean a job in few mins.. Well this is just my assumptions. As we all seen from the pic taken it somewut burst its way out. So the only thing i can see is some type of bugs or parasitic infestation. as for the crix i have my doubts.

You already start selling i thought you had figured it out?! Yes i agree the scorpion community is not great, which ended only this few buyer which know or lets say assume the consequence and ready to die for the hobby?(i thought rafiq is this kind until he sold off) damn. But haven't really experience the bad part. And i hope they never.

Rafiq has a good point when he mention it. For me as what your potraying is their beauty thats all, plus your selling and might strike newcomer attention with impulse buying. Is not hamster nor dogs or cats is something potentially fatal which you seriously think most of us here can REALLY deal with it? No offense.

I am too, do think foolishly with my self taught confidence or arrogance each day successfully keeping scorpion, and i kept dangerous sp 2. Thats all i have btw an acrylic cage. Would you sell to me?

Only advice i guess is introduce hobbyist actively participate in forums which others can guide and learn from each other. But you know la, only so few. Look at the pitiful Tarantula thread. Pic for molting and showing Ts thats all including you lester . And recently really stupid comments.

Hi dizzychef ,

Nope , i think you got me wrong . I have figure out the screening method before i start selling the a.austils hector ( tusian ) or Parabuthus transvaalicus scorpion. Well maybe my methods were not as good as yours and you felt it is not enough. i do hope u can share with us more in details here and i welcome comments and advies we learn along the way .. but do rest assure. in my times when i first start dangerous sp ,which in fact last year .. .. the screening were .. hmmm how to say ...worse than you would imagine..btw i also dun quite understand some of the things you are refering to. please do enlighten me as you go along this post .. . the ones in blue are the ones i dun understand.. sorry for my bad english ..

Yes i agree the scorpion community is not great, which ended only this few buyer which know or lets say assume the consequence and ready to die for the hobby?(i thought rafiq is this kind until he sold off) damn. But haven't really experience the bad part. And i hope they never.
i wasn't sure what you are trying to say here , please enlighten..

Rafiq has a good point when he mention it. For me as what your potraying is their beauty thats all, plus your selling and might strike newcomer attention with impulse buying. Is not hamster nor dogs or cats is something potentially fatal which you seriously think most of us here can REALLY deal with it? No offense.

yes i do agree rafiqos have a good point there, my selling might strike newcommer attention and buy on impulse. but just to explained further, that is why screening are carry out to determine if the buyer is not ready for it. i will not sell.

Well for you, it seems only i am potraying their beauty but for others it may not, as mentioned by me before, a pictures mean a thousand words. i do not spoon feed. IMO , A "interested" keeper of the invert would go beyond just looking at the scorpion in the pics but also into what is the at the background of the pic , example... method of housing , correct subrate used or to be used, type of choice of deco. types of mositure retaining materials, ideas in creating tanks for new commers etc , all can be seen in pics ... i recieved many ideas and method of keeping from just alone in pics from many others, breeder and hobbist both from local and oversea .. we exchange ideas and also resouces in getting and correct others if any of us did a wrong or how to improve to something better. i hope i explained clearly ...

And i seriously do not think most can really deal with danerous sp. Sorry to say, no offence but one of them include you . i explain more.

btw i am very interested and at the same time worried in which 2 dangerous sp you are keeping currently . Do share with us more of your setup and method of keeping scoprion with us.

no offence too but to be serious. if you are just having plastic cages and nothing else . IMO i would not be selling you anything . not even a single Heterometrus Spinifer scoprion as you are way "short" of tools . i would say..basic common sense could tell you that it required more tools for example like at least a 12" s/s tweezer , double container ( one of it which of a bigger size for transfer of scorpions or daily manintence stuff, change of the cages / tank bedding purposes etc.. ) , double cages method .. and also preventive measures like escape proof plan etc and also like a proper place to place these tank or cages ( say a cabinet ) .. protected with locks etc for unwanted access, espically with kids around and also a proper work area to carry out these chorus as it is also a very important part of the keeping of dangerous sp..in terms of reducing unwanted escape of the invert or accidental knock off to the min etc.

next would be feeders ... as it play a very important role in scorpion keeping too ... gut loading , cleaniness of the feeders tanks etc .. parasites is a killer !!!

Coming to think of it, i strongly suggest you to pass or sell the two dangerous sp u are having currently to someone with proper equipments and the right mind set when keeping dangerous sp as in my own view - no offence.. these precautions have to be taken care of and way before you even start . Get the right setup before even attempting to get any dangerous sp. It better for yourself and the scorpion too in terms of personal safety , . you can try contacting ryo if you wan to let it up for adoption, i think he can help u find a good home for the two dangerous sp ..

i am not sure if this issue we are going to discuss further is of any related to this thread .. and i would suggest we talk it over pm or msn..
as it seems like it is related to scorpion and also sort of unrelated to socprion keeping.

Hmmm ryo, sam or riddeon , do tell me if this is unrelated and i will stop from here and proceed to private messages instead ...

best regards ..

*Wrong post*

This post has been edited by RyoKenzaki: Apr 13 2010, 05:04 PM

No problem my english is bad 2 i only a chef not an engineer like you, i apologize for the blue sentence. Don't bother about it. End.

You say most is not able to keep hot scorpion, yet you post for a public place to sell. You use your so called screening yet your not confident about it when question about your method.

Again you implied that whoever sees your pictures is their business, they will automatic learn to be a good hobbyist if they are interested.

Don't need you worry, i am not familiar with you. I am in US, i use my hand for maintenance sometime chopstick when i am eating rice. I use them to control my pest roach at home. I pay medical insurance just for this reason. Hospital is few blocks away.

My sales thread is on AB you can see the sp. Seriously i sell to anyone that seem genuine, as i am PLAIN SELFISH to think US hobbyist is able to handle it, i only care for the tiny little circle of hobby back home.

You have your right to sell really. I am just curious and asking question, don't worry k?

Hmmm it remains a mystery, I expected to find larvae or maggots too but closely inpecting it found nothing. Sometimes wild caught specimens may have larvae running on their body but everything is kept clean with uneaten food removed within 12 hours. Well, regardless of what happens I'm still very enthusiastic like you guys who have losses too which come as part and parcel of this hobby. Thanks for the input guys really appreciate it, at least now I know some other people are pondering on the mystery as well.

deathpion,

where did you keep your scorpion? did you cover it during night?
from the picture it looks more like intruder attack. just my guess anyway.

selling high level scorpions to unknown buyers. this debate has rages on since the dawn of the scorpion hobby went commercial.

"no, newbies cant handle high level species until they understand the animal and the risk that is involved" one party might say.

"how do we know when they are able to buy and kept such species" another party might argue.

it's a chicken and egg thing. and basicly arguing about it doesn't bring any good to either parties since there is no agreement on both parties.

on 1 hand there are hobbyist who are "caring" to newbies that they are trying to protect them from the harm of owning a high level species and to protect the hobby itself.

on the other hand there are hobbyist who are keen to share new species which are high level to the community but are put off by the hideous cost, and risk that are involved in bringing the scorpions here. not to mention the backlash they received when trying to cover the cost by selling the species.

like i said earlier it is a chicken or egg scenario.

furthermore when we are trying to educate the public about scorpions, indirectly we are publicizing the hobby. and when things gets publicized there will be interested party who wants to join in. these are the people who can be divided into 2 groups.

a) really interested in keeping scorpions.
b) impulse keepers trying to look cool.

group a we welcome. group be we do not.

so which path should we take. increasingly educate the public and get the hobby more mainstream and draw these 2 kind of people or just let the hobby turn underground so a selective few would enjoy it.

it's our choice gentlemen.

Sam,I cant wait for your LD50 article

well...dizzychef

No problem my english is bad 2 i only a chef not an engineer like you, i apologize for the blue sentence. Don't bother about it. End.
hmm okie ... btw do engineer need to have good english ??? anw i don't understand .....

no worries .. hope my explaination are able to answer your curious mind..

yes i did mentioned " i seriously do not think most can really deal with danerous sp " . but does it mean i cannot post it in a public place or forum and sell with my so called method of screening ??? not explaining or writing in full details of my screening procedues here doesn't mean i am not confident . Do i need to write a full method of statement for it??? or a approval ???
anw i am juzt stating some of my guideline in general terms when u asked , relax ... further details if required by you, can always pm me for it. i am okie with it .

So it now begans , a report with full details of my doing here just to make someone "comfortable" ? or should i say "pleased" someone ??? let see... have anyone here done that before ???? lol... i wonder when of all of a sudden, people are so "keen" anw ... maybe my reply of the screening method does not suit you .. why not share with us "yours" i would be very eager to learn more..
i believe many are too...

And to be frank . what realli make me start to think that why most can't deal with hots sp is the mind frame one is having and respect for oneself and the inverts he/she is keeping... and not the ability house or care nor to handle for the scoprions. for example would be quite clear of who "these" people were. "i use my hand for maintenance sometime chopstick when i am eating rice. I use them to control my pest roach at home. I pay medical insurance just for this reason. Hospital is few blocks away" do i have to say more.. well

likewise mentioned by you, " i am not familiar with you", either do i , i only know you been in this hobby way back before many of us here. but think back.. when we started as newbies ... there is a time when we first get our first hots specimens. if without the encouragment and guidelines from older" shifu" or chances . would we ever grow in this hobby locally? If my peers didn't warn me of the pros and cons, i believe i would never have a chance to venture into barks and not to say deserts. i still rems the days when i first get my first hots and barks scorpion scorpions.. knowledge were passed on from 1 to the other via email / pm etc ... seraching via internet and experimenting .. anw i am just stating my view. you can disagree.

So much of letting the the community of scorpion keeping slowly grow locally when there wan't even chances for them to attemp. if u would to understand this

My sales thread is on AB you can see the sp. Seriously i sell to anyone that seem genuine, as i am PLAIN SELFISH to think US hobbyist is able to handle it, i only care for the tiny little circle of hobby back home.
Well it is ur method of selling at AB, you call the shots..... Do link ur sale thread .. or pm me the link . i would be interested to take a look, and... i not sure of US culture or if they have a screening issue or method. OR alll were just selling to anyone that seems genuine... i don't know.... but for one thing i know ... thoses i know from my selling , we make good friends and exchange pointers.

btw with regards to the pics again .. i believe i never once stated that the persons who see my pics will turn to "automode" straight or a good hobbist.. but what i mean is the "interested" person will look "beyond" and realise else things and again i made new friends from total strangers when they pm / email me for further details thru these. like where did you get your sand from ?? or that nice barks etc etc or asking why there is a need for these or that and i also learn when sometime people give advises to me ... like if i am to do this would be incorrect or what u been doing could be better etc there is an exchange of ideas but anyway .. the pictures are just another way of expressing message or information via graphic form either from texts .. every pic have a storey to tell on not only with related to scorpion itself but very much link to photography skill if u were to realise ..

sorry to quote a good friend " hauser " from scorpion forum .. his pictures were superb and i believe many will agreed. very much were understand from his pictures . landscaping , type of bedding used , tank size ..etc etc ... i alwys further confirm details with him via pm . and many a time he gave me very good informations.. for example.. there was once i asked him on O.innesi scorpions keeping.and breeding and to my supprise. the informations and knowledge he advise me is something i could not find even find on the internet or the STOM .. but sad to say .. it quite different here.. they are always some that is waiting to be spoon feed.. but rem no people own another for a living.

Pics too encourages or so call promote ones interest . there could be thoses really interested and serious about it and also thoses on impulse. there are pros and cons for everything.. why always look at things the bad side ... dun we need to see things at the gd side sometime ????

Anyway dizzychef, i am not pinpointing you and no offence.. but i felt it is a good chance for newbies when they are reading this... as i felt it serve as a good brainstorming for them with regards in this issue and hots specimens. i see it a good topic as part of scorpion keeping ... and i also wanted to clear myself that so far til now the ones i been selling were always at cost , near cost or some even under cost. . thoses who have imported themselves before would know the prices and risk involved. i not making money and only hope to do my part in promoting the this hobby locally. specimens sold are personally fed and kept awhile by me to montior for to make sure it is health before it transit to another person .

Well... much are said .....

---

Added on April 13, 2010, 10:52 pmi realise i getting more and more long winded .............. starting to nag long things ....... damned

This post has been edited by s98432512: Apr 13 2010, 10:53 PM

Part 1. understanding toxins

wikipeida give us what toxin is

A toxin (Greek: t??????, toxikon) is a poisonous substance produced by living cells or organisms[1][2] (although humans are technically living organisms, man-made substances created by artificial processes usually aren't considered toxins by this definition).

For a toxic substance not produced by living organisms, "toxicant" is the more appropriate term, and "toxics" is an acceptable plural[citation needed].

why did i bring up toxins in here and not go directly to venom or poison since it is more related to scorpions?

simple

venom is a toxin same as poison.

the different is the place where it originally arrives. is it from animal,plants, or chemicals.

there are a variety of toxins but i'm just going to cover the normal toxins which are normally found in scorpions which are neurotoxins venom and only 1 species that has a hemotoxin venom which is Hemiscorpius lepturus.

to state all the available toxins in a scorpion venom would take a large amount of time and space hence this article is a condense version of what i can find on the internet and through the books and journals that i have read and reading.

what are neurotoxins?

wikipedia give us this definition

A neurotoxin is a toxin that acts specifically on nerve cells (neurons), usually by interacting with membrane proteins such as ion channels.

in short any type of venom or poison that attacks the nerve cells.

most scorpions have neurotoxins and so does snakes,some marine animals, spiders, and other family of animals.

the way that neurotoxin works is by attacking the protein membrane of the nerve cells either by disrupting the transmission and receiving of nerve impulses from the brain or causing the nerve cells to fire their own nerve impulse regardless of the brain own nerve impuls.

in the 1st scenario where the toxin blocks the tranmission and receiving of nerve impluses the most common effects are paralysis in which the envenomate victims loose control over their body and are paralyse yet are concious but unable to speak or move. death is usually cause by the paralyses of the lung and heart tissue.

in the 2nd scenario the toxin cause rapid nerve pulses to be transmitted by all the nerve cells and overloading the spinal chord and brain which usually leads to seizures and passing out. death is usually cause by brain damage but is rare unless the toxin is delivered in a large dose or have a high LD50 number.

for further reading of the way neurotoxins works please go to

how neurotoxins works (caution alot of weird words in there)

what is hemotoxins?

again wikipedia is my soure which gives us

Hemotoxins, haemotoxins or hematotoxins are toxins that destroy red blood cells (that is, cause hemolysis), disrupt blood clotting, and/or cause organ degeneration and generalized tissue damage. The term hemotoxin is to some degree a misnomer since toxins that damage the blood also damage other tissues. Injury from a hemotoxic agent is often very painful and can cause permanent damage. Loss of an affected limb is possible even with prompt treatment.

in simpler terms toxins that destroy cells. the toxins rapidly spreads using the blood stream as a medium as transport and as it travels it will actually destroy cells which willl lead to severe bleeding and necrosis. death usually occours due to the plummeting of the victims blood preasure cause by the bleeding when the cell structures ruptures which stresses the heart which causes cardiac arrest or the toxin reaches the heart and destroys it.

some famous animals that have hematoxins are the viper family,spiders, and the one and only scorpion species which is the Hemiscorpius lepturus which is native to Iran.

if anybody is curios what is necrosis here is a picture of necrosis on a boy that have been bitten by a Fer de Lance(a snake with a nasty hemotoxic venom) and was not treated with antivenin but antibiotic for 2 weeks

.

so end chapter 1 what is toxins. chapter 2. LD50, what is it and how do they get the numbers. please discuss the 1st chapter and any questions or suggestions are appreciated..

the crazy demon.

Hemotoxic venom affects blood cells (hemoglobin). Haemo means blood. Hemotoxic venom generally inflames the blood cells and rupture them. The pressure built up within the bite/sting site expands and stretches the skin in the surrounding area. The classic slit and wait treatment is conducted in severe cases of viper bites.

These pictures were shared in another thread sometime back - rattlesnake bite

Hemiscorpius lepturus venom is also unique because it is not only hemotoxic, but also cytotoxic. Cytotoxins affect the cells and that make up the structure around the site of sting, ending up in necrosis. It won't be pretty. Cytotoxins are also used in chemotherapy to specifically target certain cancer cells and rapidly destroy them during the treatment process.

Very informative indeed, understand all of it
Here's the picture of the victim of Hemiscorpius Lepturus sting

http://www.arachnodata.ch/projects.htm

Anw, to make it short, upon stung by a neurotoxin scorp, there are 2 scenario which could result in death
1. Paralyses of the lung and heart tissue
2. Death cause by brain damage

How about death by pneumonia?
Does paralyses of the lung tissue cause pneumonia?

Pneumonia is the infection of the lungs, Ryo. Normally brought about from weakened immune system and attacks by pathological invaders.

Nice info,although havent read all yet
BTW I dont mind the pictures,but it is better to spoiler them for the weak hearts

Anyway, found these



All thanks to cytotoxic

http://www.ntnu.no/ub/scorpion-files/h_lepturus.htm

A nice read
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1868827/ (Clear your mind b4 reading )

Question: Do scorpions' venom really cause allergies?Because if I'm not wrong I remember Mr.Mordax did say something about it in Scorpion Forum.Will try to look back the thread

This post has been edited by HyourinMaru: Apr 14 2010, 01:40 PM