Hobbes, thank you for taking the time to write out and elaborate on those points you've raised, which are indeed valid concerns.

Do allow me to address some issues you've raised.

First of all, elitism.

Elitism certainly exists here in this forum. It exists in the cadres and bands of Kopitiam people regularly making incursions here and posting nonsense just for laughs, because they are separate from the concerns of the members here and their own wants and needs for "lulz" over-rides any importance of having proper discourse in this forum. They are part of a privileged, "in" group of trolls and dupes who come in here to feel SUPERIOR to the people here.

Not all Kopitiam members are like this, of course. Only the ones who think that Cupids Corner should always remain a subordinate section of Kopitiam with no function or purpose of its own, because in that way CC shall remain always as their personal playgrounds.

Is this elitism? I think that it is.

Elitism also exists among the members of SC who confine themselves entirely to chat threads and who seldom venture out into the broader forum, because, in their own words, it is, and has always been "lame", and thus it is below them to even step foot in there. They are above such petty concerns, and they have already carved out a comfortable niche in these chat threads where everything is alright, and thus, by extension, everything else must also be just as it should be. They have extrapolated a picture of absolute serenity based on the condition of their comfortable little fiefdoms.

Is this not another form of elitism? I think it certainly qualifies.

Next, the imposition of conformity of thought and behavior on an entire forum population.

This is a knee-jerk reaction motivated only by fear and insecurity. There is so much diversity and differences in opinion here that such a thing would NEVER be possible. Any attempt to do so is bound to fail.

Creating structure and form and defining the purpose and direction of the forum does not necessarily automatically mean benefiting the few at the expense of the many. It does not mean one group coming into power at the expense of another. These are vulgar thought processes because they fail to look at things beyond their importance to the self. In short, this knee-jerk reaction is a selfish one motivated by insecurity and the fear of the loss of power.

Please ask yourself what sort of power or prestige you could truly lose in a forum.
Then ask yourself if that's as important as providing this section with more focus, filtering out the noise and chaff so that it fulfils the purpose it is meant to fulfil, which is NOT to be some person's personal playground or fiefdom.

Thirdly, we are not talking about "change", and that makes the necessity of a poll entirely superfluous. Please look back at my earlier posts. They are about

1. Providing form and structure
2. to cater to a diversity of opinions, perspectives and personal characters
3. to provide Cupid's Corner with more focus and direction rather than just "existing"
4. and we have not yet even discussed how this may yet be achieved
5. nevermind that it requires participation and collective effort from a BROAD number of people to make it happen

So please, less assumptions based entirely on knee-jerk reactions.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jul 28 2009, 06:52 PM

If you really want to make CC a better place, the first thing you can start doing is refrain from replying to people who question you and what you say in such a hostile and sarcastic manner. If what you say makes sense, the majority of the people will be convinced. You don't have to call people who challenge you brainless.

Best post so far.

Interesting concept.

But why should I be beholden to sense and civility when others are not?

You've been here a longer time than me. You're familiar with the PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE methods of argumentation and obfuscation frequently used by your troll and dupe friends. You're certainly very familiar with their brute methods of argumentation by majority where they band together to pat each other on the back for statements as simple as "duh hu hu hu".

Now by comparison if I see something truly stupid beyond words I call it brainless AND I explain why.

Is that not more direct and honorable? It certainly leaves the other party the option of defending himself fairly and even returning the favor tenfold if I'm in the wrong.

Please my dear sir. Your bias and prejudice is showing rather transparently.

---

Added on July 28, 2009, 7:08 pmBy the way, want to hear another form of elitism?

It is by people who rigorously push the idea that all points of views are equal and worth the same, just because they cannot discern quality.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jul 28 2009, 07:08 PM

You were the one who suggested that the CC needs to be clean up, restructured and regulated because of all the trolling you see here. You expressed over and over again your dissatisfaction with it's current state and the behavior of fellow forumers.

Of course, you of all person should take the first step and by behaving and giving a good example to other forumers. If you decided to act as a troll when others do, you're not any better than them. The reason why /k/ behaves they way they do is because everyone does it and thus whenever someone new comes, they act they way everyone does. Same goes with the seriousness of RWI. Everyone tries to discuss seriously because that's the norm there. If one person were to give some brainless comment and everyone follows suit, that will be the end of RWI.

As far as I recall, you often calls someone or what they say brainless adequately explaining why and something foregoing explanation altogether. Furthermore, using old English and uncommon words will not help your argument but rather will make you sound condescending.

You doesn't treat someone else fairly or tease them due other things.
You consider yourself is better than others and look down upon them.
You are not considerate of others' feelings.

This post has been edited by ac_N1: Jul 28 2009, 08:42 PM

yes i do, but not only in CC

but i'm just lazy to explain cause i'm not good at it lulz, plus it's more like a waste of time for now if i want to change internet people, i rather do in real life, changing myself first (which i hope you notice) and convincing people around me to do the same =)

hmm the way you act are totally immature to me (my opinion), i said it many times attack the points not the person, yet yourself get fuel up because you can't handle critics meh, relax it's a no shame to admit our mistake, but it's a shame if we choose to ignore it =)

i came here cc to chat and express my point of views, you got any problem =P ?

This post has been edited by nickisthemost: Jul 28 2009, 08:55 PM

Love is serious business. Shouldnt be a sub forum at all. It should be out in the open...in the main.

EDIT: ok ok what am i talking about....what im saying is...it should be a subforum under LIFESTYLE. not a subforum under kopitiam.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Jul 28 2009, 08:56 PM

just beside the helpdesk?

Most of the time mods actions are justified. As I said, you have to have some experience actually moderating a forum to understand why things are done sometimes. Only then you get a clear picture.


I've noticed

and maybe if you clean this place up I'm less likely to get pissed off and troll the lot of idiots in here.

Please don't act innocent.

I make a general statement about what we can do to improve CC and you make personal comments about how much time I supposedly have, and then you ask me how exactly *I* have changed as if that were relevant?

Don't pull a weasel tactic and then cry when people treat you like one. Don't cry about "attacking the points not the person" when that's exactly what you did when you shifted the focus from the quality of the ideas to the personal.

And besides, guess what? that tactic fails.

---

Added on July 29, 2009, 1:34 amGuess what? I am not that important.

I am not Gandhi, I am not Jesus H. Christ, I am not Martin Luther King, I cannot spout feel good shit and act holier than thou and I will not save mankind or Cupid's Corner by doing so.

Everything you're saying about me or what I "should" or "should not" do is irrelevant.

I started a thread about improving Cupid's Corner and a whole bunch of you nitwits suddenly get twitches and pull horseshit out of left field.

You automatically assumed that only the absolute worst of change is to come and that *I* would be the one who causes it or effects it.

Did you think that *I* intended to change this place? You are wrong. I am not that important. I am not that wise. I am insignificant.

For those of you struggling hard to keep on to you personal playgrounds and little fiefdoms, continue to point your fingers at me rather than look at the broader environment. I am more than happy to distract you while other people make their moves and other things happen right under your noses. These will be things you are powerless to stop.

And look here, Mumeichan, ACN1 and whoever cares to make it personal, go and Fu.ck a soldering iron and die.

I can act like that and say that to you and harm not a single thing I have raised or discussed here, and do you know why? It's because you're doing your level best to focus your guns on me, but the IDEA is already out there, the IDEA has always been around in a gestalt form, the IDEA is accepted by the people who have the WILL to make it happen, and in the end it will be the IDEA that will bury you in your grave, not my hands. I will merely be there to laugh at you when the time comes.

Fu.cking dumbasses. Don't fu.cking surround me with idiocy and then expect me to behave like a fu.cking saint.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jul 29 2009, 01:53 AM

You doesn't treat someone else fairly or tease them due other things.
You consider yourself is better than others and look down upon them.
You are not considerate of others' feelings.
+
You take everything too personally
You are immature
You are should be attacking the points raised, and not the ppl who raised the point.
You couldn't take criticism & handle your temper well

Your intention to make this a better place is good. But your attitude towards it and the usage of language is simply awful. The way you are handling your cases is not any better than those /k/tards out there.
Why don't you change yourself to a better you first before you convince others to do the same? Seriously this place won't turn into a better place when someone is running around spitting vulgar words.

Dickson, are you philosophy graduate?

so basically, all you want to do is raised the idea, then leave it there

and the idea was to improve cc by pinning quality post

nice idea, but for others people they think that having a good attitude is far more better than having a quality post in terms of improving cc, what do you think ?

Personally, I don't think insults and flamewars make CC a lousy place. I've insulted and flamed people before, and lemme tell you, they deserved it. I don't buy this "let's all respect each other" business when some posts don't deserve respect.

I think a web forum is a community, and like any community it is up to each individual member to make it the kind of community they want it to be. I'm with Dickson in wanting to see less of the /k/tards, but short of reporting every one of their posts - which, frankly, has a lot of potential for abuse - I'm not sure if we can ever really get rid of them. The only real way is to drown out the noise with enough real content of our own making - which means, if you want more good posts, you'll have to write more good posts yourself.

That's mainly the reason why I wrote my "5 Ways to Let a Girl Know You're Interested In Her." I don't really want to put myself up as some kind of love guru, actually.

In any case, let me just bring it up again - TAKE CC OUT OF /K/.

Hi Dickson, my appologies i'll skip all the formality and jump right into business if you dont mind


I beg to differ, trolls and clowns operate on a different playing field as elitism, they dont come in here to feel supperior, they come in to have fun by making fun of others.

Regardless of which forums you go, there'll be a small community of clowns and trolls lurking somewhere, you wont be able to get rid of them, period.
People says when the buying stops, the killing stops in this context i'll rephrase it as when the feeding stops, the trolling stops
Stop feeding them what what they aimed for and slowly you'll see the numbers dwindle
Easier said than done, i know i did refrained from feeding them and its not easy

And now something for those who wants or talk about changes and making this place a better place without trolls or clowns]/i] to ponder on;
Some wise man once said Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself, did we really walk the talk or talk the talk by not feeding the trolls in the first place?
So another wise man once said The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and make sure that single step was taken by you and not some one else, have those who keeps whining about trolls and clowns taken that very first step by not feeding them or are they some one who only thinks about changing the world to suit them and not the other way round? Perhaps another example of elitism?

To further illustrate my point above, please allow me to use some of my very crude example once again.

Now there's talk about reducing carbon foot print, so these so called pioneers and leaders in carbon reducing campaigns jets off in first class seats, conducts seminars and meetings in fully air conditioned rooms, fully and brightly lit seminar rooms and excursions by vehicles to sites and places.
You think i'd be interested to hear what they have got to say?
I'll be more inclined to join their cause or at least stop by and listen if they were to walk/cycle/drive a solar vehicle and conduct seminars under bright sunlights outdoor.
Is it not what we are seeing here in CC?

As for my own opinions of clowns i dont resent them, i'll explain in due time.


I cannot say for the rest of the SC members, but I for sure do practice that and i certainly do have my own reasons for not venturing out into the broader forum in CC and far from what you have described as per above.

Noticed how all the genuine problem threads are mostly one sided i.e. one party complaining, everyone starts jumping into conclusion and starts dishing out advices based on assumptions?
My question is can we start judging a relationship and starts dishing advices when we have only heard one side of the story?
Guilty without trials or innocent until proven?
Example you may ask?

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1110341/+20

I've even more questions to ask than to contribute; for example, what transpire her to cheat, is the TS proven to be innocent or he too plays a role in what transpired, have the accused given a chance to defend herself and so forth, i guess i'll skip the remainder of my questions, i guess you get the idea. Something for us to ponder on, are we part of the solution or part of people's problem.

Now in this context i guess by not jumping into conclusion and further compounding the TS problem with wrong solutions via a half baked diagnosis is the best contribution, no?

Noticed how relationship experts differ from our so called experts or contributors, its the real deal experts asked both parties in for an interview inidvidually and asseses their grouses/claims (perhaps even their close friends will be called in) and then have both parties in together to give them advices and opinions

Sometimes people with relationship problems may not even need a solution, relationship is not maths, it doesnt neccesarily needs a solution. Allow me to illustrate my point in a crudely manner as usual

We have 2 individuals A and B both married or in a relationship, A have grouses with his/her other half, and the other party is not in the mood to discuss yet.
Most of A's circle of friends knows B and some are close to him/her, A does not wants to misled/change his friends point of view on B through his rants, neither is he comfortable to rant with strangers/not so close friends in real life.
He/she comes into CC and rant anonymously, here comes the part where we in CC can contribute, is to lend an ear or perhaps eyes in this matter and not starts to judge/advice or go morally right or wrong.
Silence can be a virtue.

Now as usual a few clowns or trolls jumps in and post Tits or gtfo or along the lines of those one liners post we are so often used to see.
Who knows those one liners may have cracked the TS up and lighten his bluesy day?
In this context i'd say they certainly did contributed to this small community in a way as compare to those who practiced the hollier than thou and all self justified morally right posts.
Hence my earlier statement that i do not resent trolls and clowns

Point in case poisonous snakes can be a hazard to human, but look at the bigger picture; they do contribute to the ecosystem by reducing the amount of rats.
All that glitters is not gold
If you think their posts are all rubbish, think again, there's always recycling.

Another misconception that most people in chat threads spams rubbish and only confine themselves in that little space without any tangible contribution to this small little community.

Chat threads are there for various reasons, I shall not waste your time by pointing out the obvious reasons, but would love to share some of the less obvious ones with you.

Some people have problems confiding to strangers especially those pertaining to sensitive and confidential issues. Chat threads can be a way to break the ice and when people with problems are comfortable with certain members of the thread, its easier for them to spill the beans albeit on a private basis perhaps via pm, msn and so forth.

I've borrowed my partially impaired ears to some people in CC on issues ranging from sex to work related issues chipping in my 0.000002 rupiah worth of opinions when ever i can via private channels like pm.
In case you are thinking to challenge me on the above point for prove, no i dont have prove nor do i need to. I'll gladly admit that i'm a liar, after all i am one who dont believe in divulging people's confidentiality to back one's credibility and betraying their trusts in the process.
Also I am aware that certain members do contribute to this little community on a quiet basis that way and are also members of SC, hints: nicknames starting with S and P

Again a misconception and thoughts derived from assumptions.

There's nothing for those who resent points you've made to loose.
In the clowns and trolls case, they can always migrate to another forum or lay low for the time being they have yet to loose any freedom or potential fun at all.
Still i dont resent them for reasons i've illustrated in my above point.
They'll certainly be back,like they always do, prove can be had if you lurk long enough in kopitiam.

Again we can never achieve a 100% perfect environment that suits everyone.
I'll illustrate my above point with yet again another crude example.

In an agriculture environment, we can never have a 100% yield throughput all the time, we are bound to have deseases and pest invasions every now and then, the only defensive method we can apply is to use pesticides to safe guard our investments.

Now National Geographic Magazine ran an article some time ago about food supplies specifically grains, during the 70s or thereabout, in order to feed the amount of people, we turned to scientific methods which seemingly did more good than harm and almost doubling production throughput.
Today we are paying the price of what seems to be a good change 30 years ago.
Our waters and grains are so poluted with pesticides and artificial fertilizers that certain villages are now in dire need of fresh clean water.
Its also linked with health hazards like cancers.
We are also facing overpopulation spurred by cheaply available grains back then.

So i ask, would changes like filtering all the noise and chaffs be seemingly good now but do more harm in the long run as the above example?
See how dead and boring RWI is?

Having said that, i have been a member of certain groups in real life and almost always groups disbanded or defacto factions formed because a certain few members with this elitist attitude tries to forced their point of view of how it would be better for the group collectively down the majoritie's throat.

Again i ask would it be better to let nature takes it own course and the majority of the people here to dictate the environment and direction of this small little community?

Perhaps that explains the resentment here?


Its still about change no?
As in a change of direction to achieve your said form, structure, focus and environment which are different from what it is now, no?

IMHO CC has never lost its form, structure or focus.
We are still what we are in providing a place for people to hook up, get to know each other more, a place to rant, a place to seek relationships related opinions and consultation, a hideout for those too tensed from their daily relationship be it in love, family or work and a place for them to unwind.

We are still a caring small little community minus the annoyance that comes every now and then which we can never eradicate.

Its the way the delivery of the above said goals varies from time to time depending on the majority type of members we have here at certain point in time.

Again an example to illustrate my above point.

10/20 years ago or at least during my time, we are not to question our teachers and we are not to disrespect our teachers by treating them as friend.
Whatever the teacher forces down your throat is gospel of truth and its good for you.

See how much has changed today?
Lecturers hangs out with their students, talks like friends via msn, sms and so forth in order to understand their students individually and administering help and educating from a friend's point of view instead of the ancient corporal punishment method?

Have we deviate from our goal in education?
Certainly not, we are still learning and educating albeit in a different form, much like CC

If it does not fits your notion of an ideal environment, form, focus or goals doesnt neccesarily means we have deviate from what we are and visions that we strive to achieve.

Perhaps its a wake up call for some of us here to adapt and evolve much like how life has been for millions of years; adapting and evolving to fit the environment and not by forcing the environment to change to suit us.

A house divided against itself cannot stand the same can be said for our small little community here.

In lieu of whining for a better CC, if you guys are serious why not walk the talk instead of talk the talk?

I'll take the initiative and start the ball rolling by suggesting some one go put together a piece of guide of how to ask questions constructively

Noticed how many forumers who genuinely have problems and expects serious/constructive answers but clueless when comes to asking questions constructively thus leading to half baked answers or spams?

Perhaps include some block diagrams to illustrate why a half baked questions will lead to half baked answers?
How to avoid that pitfall?
How to ask constructively and information needed before advice/help can be administered?


p/s Ezra take note, i know you have been aiming for a stickied thread, perhaps this may your answer

I understands what are u trying to say. I do flame ppl too. But from different aspect.
Normally ppl focus on "winning" a flame war but what I'm doing is actually attempting to raise the other person’s awareness while maintaining my own sense of inner peace. By this I mean that you focus on helping the other person become more aware of the full extent of their behavior and how it affects you and others, but without taking ownership of anything the other person says.

People make mistakes. We are allowed to make mistakes. But the actions we take while in a rage is another story.

"5 Ways to Let a Girl Know You're Interested In Her." is really a superb post i might say. Normally I'll skip those wall of text but this is one of those thread which i actually read from the very beginning to the end.

You'll have my both hands up to vote for moving cc out of /k/

Wow, longest post by hobbes thus far I always like how you write when you get serious, as uneducated as you are


Granted that mr. poonani is rather crude, but I would say that in what he writes, there is a wealth of information in it. Should we ignore what he has to say, just because he is rude in his approach? Do you prefer weaker advice, as long as it is nice?

Mr. poonani..... lols xD~~
You take that as an advice?

This post has been edited by ac_N1: Jul 29 2009, 12:55 PM

Yes, because I can look pass the crudeness and see his point. While others like you, focus on the crude part and miss his points entirely. This sort of reaction reveals things to me, and I'm assuming it reveals things to mr. poonani as well.

For me, its a common technique I use sometimes to see why a person is in a discussion. If I can be crude and the person can ignore it to discuss the points involved, then it is obvious the person is in the discussion for the points and not for some personal agenda. When a person gets defensive over the "insults" its obvious that the person isn't open to new ideas, but thinks about their own personal issues first and foremost.