You opened up my mind aeiou228. Lets say this method can also be applied using existing kolam's... we can consider the canvas as an 'additional barrier' besides the water proofing. i did request for installation of wall sided kolams on the ground floor as a standby/backup if the mist/humidifier fails temporarily. the sands function? i am assuming the drip nozzles are more of less like those used in the chicken coops like the ones below?





In that case, theres also a possibility that those black hoses used in agriculture can be used, since it applies the same concept. Eh, come to think of it, maybe you meant those agriculture ones ah?

*a minute of prayer for those fallen in Padang, contribute what we can. who knows when our time in need might come*

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 5 2009, 08:21 PM

Thx 4 the discussion about mist & kolam. Kinda busy just wanted to show this;

http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=116&cp=all#comments

Its always surprising on how people view the industry. Some see it as a game and even brand us as an illegal industry just like gambling dens and video arcades. Then again brother West Wing, these type of people don't understand the industry and don't really give a damn about the welfare of both the people and the birds involved in the industry.

I would like to ask assistance from all forumers here regarding the mentioned survey. Please email me application forms for BH operations permit/license from your respective PBT's, together with terms and conditions or pre-requisites. I am sure they have some sort of flowchart or guideline on how to apply. One of the objectives of the survey is to highlight the red tape and quality of service involved in licensing for bird activities (this includes Perhilitan as well, the forms from them dah ada dah). Currently my own PBT has no undang2 kecil and i will leave it at that.

Secondly, whoever has a copy or access to "Perintah Perlindungan Hidupan Liar (Pindaan) 2003", i need a copy. The 1972 Act of course dah ada, the pindaan i need.

Please email me at dunsuntutmybuntut@gmail.com. I will be meeting the secretary & treasurer of a state level association to propose that they become my platform for this survey, to extend the survey to smaller state associations & other states as well. I need to pick up momentum from there since i am basically a nobody.

Just some basic info about the objectives;


1. Population study of Aerodramus fuciphagus. The only reason why it is in Jadual 3 Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar 1972 (Akta 76) is because the cave dwelling birds... the nests were harvested uncontrollably leading to a dwindling population (at the time). Thus with the existence of properly managed and planned bird sanctuaries, this problem should no longer be an issue. Perhilitan should just concentrate on protecting the cave birds and leave the commercially built sanctuaries alone. Also abolish the taxes involved for birds nest export, or at least impose the tax only for cave nests (since their jurisdiction should only cover cave birds). Secondly. in the Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar, THERE IS NO CLEAR DEFINITION of the terms protected and fully protected species. THERE IS NOT EVEN A POPULATION SIZE BASED DEFINITION. Heck, if the Pengarah Perhilitan one day got manic depression and suddenly wanted to put a wild bull in the list... we'd all be eating illegal protected species meat! Say bye-bye to lovely grilled steaks. That Act should be revised, so many loopholes and opportunities for Perhilitan to abuse power.

2. Imposing that the industry come under the Veterinary Services Department. Perhilitan is definitely incompetent. Perhilitan refuses to understand the natural behavior of these birds and refuse to acknowledge that swiftlet farmers have contributed to the species population increase. VSD (if properly guided with MOH) should be able to do more detailed research such as regular sampling of guano for bacterial/viral/helminth/parasitic organism screening from properly managed bird houses besides keeping tract of suspicious bird deaths (if any). The Kementerian Sumber Asli & Alam Sekitar already stated that there were no cases of avian flu related to Aerodramus, and no such cases were recorded by CDC NY (a Malaysian family friend works there, virologist). Then how the hell did some idiots confidently state in mainstream newspapers that they believed that swiftlets can cause avian flu???

3. The problem is, some people rather see the whole industry shut down (mind you, it contributes millions of dollars in export value) than help sort out the problem of red tape. Whats more, its the government agency themselves. Many stories and many first hand experience encountered. The reliability of agencies will included as well. PM endorses the industry, but the public servants not. Heck, one penjawat awam i met blantly said," Saya tak tahu pasal sarang burung dan saya tak minat nak ambil tahu pasal sarang burunng"... when the fact is, his responsibility was to know and monitor the progression of such projects. Amazing Malaysia!!! (this is why i need copies of application forms for BH permits/licensing).

4. To prove the increase of successful bumiputra participation in the industry. Like it or not, this has to be included. Despite the hollering of 1Malaysia, we are still a race based community, but a community that mutually respects each others differences. The birds nest industry is a common ground, we all fight and strive for the same aim. Basically what bumiputra participation brings is a little bit more political leverage. If some disagree, then it is my mistake. And if it should be left out, please say so.

5. A sort of social impact assessment to the community surrounding the BH.

As mentioned before, do not worry about the methodology and stuff, will have the proper professional backup. Please comment freely. I need input-input-input!!! Thanks a bunch.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 21 2009, 10:01 AM

Budget 2010, subsection.

ADVANCING AGRICULTURE SECTOR

43. The agriculture sector has contributed significantly to the income of the
people in rural areas and to economic growth. The Government is confident that the
sector has the potential to be upgraded and play a significant role in generating
income for the rakyat. The transformation of the sector needs to be intensified from
cultivation to marketing the products. This process involves programmes aimed at
attracting more young entrepreneurs, encourage best agricultural practices and
upgrade agriculture infrastructure. For this purpose, the Government will allocate
RM6 billion for the agriculture sector, among others:

First: Upgrade and improve drainage and irrigation infrastructure in paddy
fields involving 180,000 farmers with an allocation of RM137 million;

Second: Implement the Paya Peda Dam Project in Terengganu, which will
increase water supply capacity to Skim Pengairan Padi in Besut. For
the year 2010, a sum of RM70 million will be provided;

Third: Modernise the aquaculture industry and implement entrepreneurship
training scheme for aquaculture breeders with focus on production of
fish fry and ornamental fish. The scheme will benefit 1,150
participants, involving an allocation of RM82 million;

Fourth: Develop food farming industry such as fruits, vegetables, organic
farming, herbs, seaweeds and swiftlet nests with an allocation of
RM149 million;

Fifth: Develop basic infrastructure of livestock farms and establish supply
chains for production of beef and mutton with an allocation of RM58
million; and

Sixth: Implement the incubator programme to train and guide youths and
graduates to be successful agro-entrepreneurs. This programme will
be jointly undertaken by the Ministry of Agriculture and Agro-based
Industry, Ministry of Youth and Sports, Universiti Putra Malaysia,
AgroBank and Regional Economic Corridors.


full text can be downloaded at;

http://bit.ly/2905En


by the way, the association i approached to do the survey, was responsive. However some say the effort as an aggressive approach saying it was like i'm intentionally provoking the relevant authorities. Hmm...

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 23 2009, 07:26 PM

Utusan today, was informed by a friend that Perhilitan is organizing a workshop regarding the swiftlet industry;

http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/info.asp?y...07.htm&arc=hive

there was no mention on where and what time, but was made understood from that friend it started last night 8-10pm, tomorrow and possibly Sunday location somewhere in Dengkil. Anyone here ever participated in those workshops?

Honestly speaking, i have no idea. Thats why i'm so pissed with Perhilitan. They keep bugging BH owners and impose this and that, but when they themselves organize a workshop about the industry, they fail to publicize properly. I only got bits and pieces of information from friends... whether or not it is open to all or selectively bumi, i am not sure. It does sound logical though, what you implied... if they spread the word by mouth only among bumi's, would explain why only some people get to know. If that is the case, then it just shows Perhilitan practices selectivity. I'll try getting info from friends about the workshop once i get back to the west coast.

Lets pray all the hype about 1Malaysia is true. I see the swiftlet industry as a common ground for people with the same passion. We will unite for the sake of the industry, but an added bonus would be support from the authorities.

Out of curiosity, how did Perhilitan announce details about the workshop? I regularly open their website, but takde langsung inform.

All i can see is that it would be an abuse of funds (of the budget). Trust me on that. Anything ad-hoc, related to Perhilitan, attended by only bumi's... nothing good can come out of it.

Dear kotmj, can you ask your mother and aunt to fill in some details about the workshop? A simple summary jadilah.

I also heard that Perhilitan itself had a Bird House in Paya Indah Wetlands... made using some sort of synthetic polymer (or something like that)??? From a friend that entered, the temperature & humidity was way off despite using mist system. Oh, did i mention there was not a single bird/nest even though it was a year old? Either they intended the BH to be a show house, or Perhilitan has no idea what its doing.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 27 2009, 04:03 PM

Haha... dear rexis, let me share some info about this 'swiftlet factory' concept. I secara tidak sengaja met an acquaintance of the swiftlet factory guy. I somehow showed displeasure at the concept since to me, it would be forcing a wild animal to acquire habits such as eating from machines etc2... the friend was a bit uneasy but rather than defending his friend, explained it for me to understand (since he too was not in preference of the technology).

The mentioned technology was imported from Indonesia, the biggest producer of birds nest. However... the technology is still in its infancy and not yet 100% developed nor has it been proven fool proof. We must remember... in Indonesia this industry has its specialist... PHD's and master's thesis in this field is not uncommon. They do serious research. It was the same for usage of 'foster' parents or seriti. They not only did trial and error, but did scientific data based research before applying it to the industry. The 'swiftlet factory' on the other hand is still in its trial phase. Like drugs or even new strains of paddy or chili or anything... it needs to pass a few clinical trial or pilots, not only in controlled environments during research but out in the field as well. All i can say is, that particular technology has not been fully developed nor has it been proven as of yet. Promoting a not yet proven technology is just typical... its the Malaysian way i guess. Other countries scientists & innovators take 10-15 years before coming out public with a new technology, we do it every other month! The victims? Uninformed investors.

I think the swiftlet factory concept is incubating, feeding and conditioning young swiftlets. don't get me wrong cll666, i am against both capturing wild ones as well as breeding them unnaturally. My argument was to show how such an undeveloped technology or unproven technology be promoted to the public, it is ethically wrong for both humans and swiftlet. If the technology fails; we will get young swiftlets unable to adapt to conditions in the wild, and those who invest will lose hardly earned cash.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 27 2009, 04:21 PM

hahahaha! your sense of passionate sarcasm never fails to amuse me bro WW. well, who knows what advancement in technology would bring. the possibility is endless, but for now... lets stick to the methods so far proven worthwhile.

since i too am against GMO's... that thought you flirted with is scary!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks kotmj. I just met the friend who attended, he mentioned a hilux & vios? >.<
I also have in hand the mentioned compilation (which also had a list of 724 participants), also booklets "Informasi Perusahaan Sarang Burung Layang2 Gua Di Semenanjung Malaysia" & "Garis Panduan Perusahaan Sarang Burung Layang2" both by Perhilitan. I haven't gone thru them yet, sleepy. If i have the time i'll try converting them to pdf so others can go thru as well (unless i feel guilty for violating copyright acts). Also have an MMS picture of the mentioned sample BH in Paya Wetlands, but since i am an outdated person... can't transfer the image to my lappy (erm... how do i check if my lappy has bluetooth?).

I am not sure how to approach the bumiputra association issue. If it is a national level entity, they must have at least representation from 7 bumiputra state level associations... or is it just representatives per se? If it is association based, then they will be in trouble. The only registered bumi association is the Terengganu one. Kedah will follow soon and so will Negri Sembilan (i heard la, from sources). But it shouldn't be a problem if it needs just individual reps. Or maybe they have to get the right person to guide them, not people with ulterior personal motives.

Lets say there will be a bumiputra national level association... it would help boost bumi participation. But as a bumi myself... as i said earlier... it might just be a political tool in the end, and might cause more disparity towards the industry. Secondly, since it was formed under Perhilitans supervision (i assume this for now)... it might make matters worse since Perhilitan with its 1972 Act is the main hurdle we face. I may sound biased but that possibility is there. I would prefer the VSD be the authority. The good part is, it will increase political leverage with more bumi participation.

tangsn, not sure about the Kedah state, is it under the Jabatan Perancang Bandar & Desa proposal? Someone did make a link downloadable a few months back (JPN.3/2009(3.1.4)). Will share info if i get wind of it.

no worries coolandy... whats true is true. Despite all the so called 1Malaysia concept preached by the higher ups... it is still the agencies & its government servants that execute and deliver. If the ideals or policy is good, doesn't necessarily translate into efficient non-bias delivery system.

I don't really mind about the bumi association... what bothers me if its influenced by other agencies or parties. An independent association would be good. If half the committee members had the same passion & drive as the forumers here... that would be good. If some of the committee members had hidden sole agendas (like using the association to gain contract work for BH's or doing consultancy work individually but using the association name)... that would be not good.

I see the function of an association... besides handling a part of marketing issues... as a platform to problem solve 'problematic' BH's. I mean... i am sure many of those interested in joining would be BH owners with unsuccessful BH's (at least thats the trend i can predict). Members with the proper experience could form some sort of task force... find solutions for members. Fee's? Hmm... minyak & food enough. hahaha! Also associations can guide interested people/parties looking to invest, organize talks, seminars, discussions, public awareness... do surveys and research... not to forget lobbying about issues threatening the industry.

If there was such a charitable association, swiftlet consultancy c/o's will definitely bungkus. >.<

tangsn... new government? yes, possibly good news. But its also a double edged blade. The current government HEARS our voices, but alas doesn't LISTEN. Well, some do, at least the MPSp has agreed to do research before pointing fingers to the swiftlet industry;

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...733&sec=central


Here are some of yesterdays newsclippings about the Perhilitan workshop. Also a suggestion of a One-Stop-Center for permits/licenses. I have no idea how this will be done, especially when different PBT's will definitely want to handle the issue on their own;

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...699&sec=central

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...184&sec=central


The Bandar Melawati BH's will be facing some gusty wind due to issues brought up by residents/other shoplot owners;

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...392&sec=central


Dear Cergau, for Malays like us who are aware and realize that the real culprits destroying not only our kinsmen but also our nation... are our own brothers... it is our duty to enlighten others. For people like us who have access to information & relevant sources... it is our duty to inform the uninformed. That 50 plus years of the same rule has given rise to a new form of feudalism. The young are confused and solely seek the pleasures of life, the old mere puppets. It is more or less the same for the Indian community.

An old bugger (actually he was my former prof & dean) once told me about his concept of 'ilmu';

"There's data, information, knowledge & wisdom. You collect data compile and translate it into information. You analyze the information and you get knowledge. How, when & where you use that knowledge... wisdom. Until you get there you will need guidance, that's my role. Starting from tomorrow, you will be dogs. When i say do, you do. When i say sit, you sit."

I hated the old man's guts since he was one hell of an arrogant b*st**d... but will be forever indebted for his teachings & guidance. Maybe this is the reason i always propose to associations to do surveys of their members. >.<

(sorry talking nonsense, suddenly got flash backs during student years)

I see nothing wrong talking about politics here, the bigger picture of the industry does involve gov policies, and its them politicians that make up the government. Either way, let it be BN or Opposition (opposition here seems to be the opposite in some states), as long as they facilitate the industry... then its ok with me.

If the one-stop center will be as what you mentioned, then it would be a good thing!!! I just hope it won't be another corrupt set up... since most of the agencies involved are kinda infamous for such practices.

Here's todays;

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...006&sec=central

Batang Berjuntai area. Still got people thinking that swiftlets shit on cars. And still highlighting errant BH owners. Same old same old, trust me, this new guideline will definitely cause town BH's to be eradicated at this rate. In the past 2 months there has been more than a dozen articles about the swiftlet industry in mainstream papers... only 2-3 in a positive light. I believe some parties are aiming something or have an agenda. It just isn't by coincidence. (ok-ok, maybe i'm over reacting thinking about some conspiracy theory). Anyway, how can they blame its the swiftlet industry that caused people to move out, when the most of the time swiftlet farms are made in washed out tak laku development areas to begin with? Come on la, everybody knows Bestari Jaya is just a joke, existing only because a Jawa had a dream. I passed by the old road that day and saw the Yu Hue Swiftlet. Also saw the Selangor Fruit Valley... which looked more like an African savanna.

I heard Datuk Beh presented the Kedah guideline, is this true? Does anyone have a copy?

Haha, well i did think of a conspiracy theory. For all you know, the culprits might even be from within the industry itself... people who have interests in land or eco-parks, or those parties that look forward to opportunities to monopoly certain areas in the industry. who knows eh? that is the way the country works, can't use it... break it or disable it. that's how political parties rule.

Anyways, what dissatisfies me is the lack of proper information the general public has. Second is why are they still errant BH owners that disregard the rules... what the hell are the associations doing? Highlighting the bad ones over and over is just unfair, and definitely biased. Whether or not town BH's days are numbered is still to be seen. If a proper guideline catering for existing town BH's is enforced, there shouldn't be a problem as long as the delivery system is transparent and it really addresses the owners plus community issues. Lets just hope errant town BH owners will listen.
(oh by the way, i don't have a town BH. only a 30x80 3 story stand alone unit on agri land >.<)

I do wish some association or merchant association would do a paid documentary of the industry. You know, like those paid commercials. I haven't seen any Discovery or National Geographic documentary or articles about 'swiftlet sanctuary services' (using bro West Wing's term)... and so far the NGO's in Malaysia... namely the MNS, the FOE or SAM know nuts about the industry. They can't even provide the proper data... and on the other hand so can't the industry. We need, research, we need surveys and samplings. I plead to the associations with many members with town BH's... please do data collection and do a survey on your members. We must be prepared with information in hand, thats the least we can do.

The Jew metaphor, just isn't the same comparing those situations. But i thank bro kotmj, the Jews had no choice... whether they believed it or not the end result would still mean genocide. We, the swiftlet sanctuary providers on the other hand do have a choice, react, respond and as bro kotmj said... take action in any capacity we have.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Oct 31 2009, 05:26 PM

thats a dream i share as well bro West Wing. That is why i over and over state we must do research, we must prove the statements wrong... we can shove the research data to international organizations to attract conservation interests... well, among others la.

Just to share;

Garis Panduan PERHILITAN (Cetakan Ke 3)
http://www.mediafire.com/?n2tk4zlzigu

Garis Panduan Veterinar (GAHP 2003)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1dm4m3gwdg

I noticed in item 5.1 (GP PERHILITAN), one must have 4 Licenses;

1. Lesen Premis from PBT (if applicable i guess)
2. Lesen Mengambil Sarang from PERHILITAN
3. Lesen Perniagaan Sarang from PERHILITAN
4. Lesen Import/Eksport from PERHILITAN


Some Acts relevant and giving PERHILITAN jurisdiction on AF;
Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar 1972
http://www.mediafire.com/?z4dttlhmnol

and one funny statement in the PERHILITAN Guideline item 3.2;

"Di bawah Akta APSPP 75 yang dimaksudkan, burung telah diisytiharkan dalam jadual (Ruj: RKPBV/6/5/1 LLC.ll.PN.PU.297) sebagai salah satu daripada "serangga pembawa penyakit".

Looks like PERHILITAN is a bit confused... i mean confusing a bird with an insect! Anyway this somehow gives MOH jurisdiction as well;
Akta Pemusnahan Serangga Pembawa Penyakit 1975
http://www.mediafire.com/?0qd0rfbzfdm

the statement was 'burung' or birds... so i am assuming ALL avians are included.

The "Edible-Nest Swiftlets Management In Asia" book... i tak larat nak scan. Sorry guys. The only commendable work or with the most credible research was from Dr. Lim Chan Koon of course. Others were mere writings based on other studies and more comparative rather than real research per se.

Haha, i agree with Cergau, some people are obedient fools, even when its soooo clear what they are doing is wrong.

I am anticipating who will come out with the national policy/guideline on the Swiftlet Industry. I hope the Ministry Of Natural Resources & Environment (PERHILITAN) and MOA (Dept Of Vet Services) will solve this. I mean, if two or more guidelines came out... which one to follow? >.<

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 2 2009, 02:48 PM

Dear Bro West Wing, where can i get my hands on Dr. Chris's book?

Just to share some info with all... today i spent two hours at DVS state HQ & two hours ++ at state PERHILITAN HQ...

At DVS... i was shown a circular dated 15th August 09, stating that the DVS is the 'Agensi Peneraju' for the commercial swiftlet industry. This of course includes the GAHP which is currently being revised, when it will be completed is still to be known. HOWEVER, the jurisdiction of harvesting/selling/exporting nest still falls under PERHILITAN and premise still under PBT for now. DVS has no problem at all with swiftlet sanctuary providers (allow me to use your term Bro West Wing, since it is the most suitable term)... but again they only provide the policy or guideline uniform for all states... KPPBT should also do something like that, a uniformed ruling applicable for all states (as long as it is lenient and acceptable to the industry).

PERHILITAN on the other hand... were also receptive... i questioned and argued about the 1976 Act whereby there was no mention of any population based definition for the animals listed in jadual 1-5. He explained frankly that AF no matter how much the population may be... is still a wild animal... not a domesticated bird. Heck, had to agree. However in 2003 AF was moved from jadual 3, to jadual 4, from a fully protected species, to a protected species (which might explain why the GAHP 2003 was made in a hurry and rather lousy)... thus enabling PERHILITAN to issue permits/licenses for harvesting(KPM26)/selling(19A)/exporting(21A). Only PERHILITAN HQ (Cheras) can issue them.

Honestly speaking, both agencies were still unsure of recent developments since the higher ups are still in discussion (have no idea who are advising them, but i hope they do a good job with the industry's interest as priority). I hope full authority will be given to DVS... which i see as more suitable... but since AF no matter how many BH's there are and millions of birds around... is still wild... thus the function of PERHILITAN cannot be removed totally. I'd rather if PERHILITAN just took care of cave birds/nests and leave BH's alone for DVS to govern.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 3 2009, 09:06 PM

That point may still be valid bro Cergau, population based definition of any species... however the issue now is the term WILD. To tell the truth, that 1972 Act has many loopholes (ie the inclusion basis of any species into the schedule as mentioned by Cergau, no definition whatsoever, thats why i mentioned before if suddenly the Pengarah Perhilitan went nuts and included cicak or tikus in the schedule... we'd all be applying permits for them since almost all homes have them!)... i even failed to get CITES's definition of protected, fully protected, endangered and other terms.

Too long underwater, we might drown! >.< Bro West Wing... the way you say it... makes it look like PERHIITAN wants details of each supplier, tracking every source... and making us rat out our fellow BH owners... sounds sleazy, abusive and bully like. However, there is a very simple way to overcome this right without going underwater? >.<

It is these issues... from premise... harvesting... trade... export of raw nests... PERHILITAN has its claws in. I just hope by some miracle DVS will be fully responsible for the industry, in every stage for commercial swiftlet activities... sounds impossible but hopefully with the current momentum a miracle will happen. AMEN!!!