I read the document bro Cergau, thanks a bunch, haven't came thru that one yet. However... i have this tingling feeling that that paper/workshop only talks of cave nests, only concerned with cave nests... not nests harvested from BH's. I'll try reading it again to make sure.

There are plans of making a one stop center for swiftlet permits/licensing, i am sure brother Cergau is aware of this if you were present at the Paya Indah Workshop (i wasn't present, but if i was i'd shoot down the officers with 1001 questions just for fun!). I agree as well about the education part, this also is the responsibility of associations, they have to educate and work with the relevant agencies (i am still crossing my fingers that DVS be the one with 100% authority for commercial BH's)... and while doing that, why not educate the public as well??? More public awareness, the more wider the local market can be.

Hahahaha!!! TRUE. Lets try doing what we can to get that Mega Red Tape into a Thin Red Thread. Haaaaa.... Bobby C also might be sensing that some sort of conspiracy is present against the BN industry!! Hehehe!! (maybe becoz i grew up with John Grisham's & Robert Ludlum books).

Honestly speaking Bobby C, one reason there are so many BH's with no permits or license from PBT/Perhilitan is not just because of red tape... but due to elements of racism as well. I am not pointing any fingers... but this is a well known fact, bias. I recently went to Kuala Selangor and was greeted with the sounds of bird calls... non-stop bird calls... obviously not following guidelines. Had breakfast and by chance sat to a table besides a group of people wearing uniforms with clearly embroidered 'PENGUATKUASA' on them. Being the type that just 'sondols' no matter who i'm facing, started talking and asking a few things. 'You tak dengar ke bunyi burung bising ni?', 'semua rumah ni ada permit ke tak ni?', 'kenapa tak tarik permit kalau langgar syarat?', 'siapa punya rumah burung ni?', 'pihak majlils betul ke ada hak nak keluarkan permit, ada dalam undang2 kecil ke?'... among others. Ok fine... the issue of errant owners blasting bird calls the whole day itself is enough to give the industry a bad name... other than that, the premises i guess was ok, only observed from the outside anyways (i heard that the new shoplots were owned by the Majlis itself, but the upper floors were not fully occupied thus explaining why some are turned into BH's... the place is sooooooo suitable). Most of the bird houses were Chinese owned, but the enforcement guys said that during application of permits, they used a Malay proxy or Malay friends name. I asked why... somehow they sensed that i wasn't really an industry antagonist and politely asked to be excused because of duty. Dammit, should have brought a recorder!

From that, i see a few important points;

1. Errant BH owners & lousy enforcement. Both give the industry a bad name. The sound pollution was obvious and yet both deafened their ears.
2. Why must a Chinese Malaysian have to resort to using a Malay proxy to apply for BH permits? Why must agencies that should be serving all, be
so biased? This is not fair.

Sorry la complaining here. Wish the agencies could be like the swiftlets... as long as the conditions of the BH are suitable... they'll sleep, nest and reproduce in it no matter who the BH owner is... Chinese ke, Malay ke, Indian ke or any skin color and race.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 5 2009, 06:15 AM

Newsclip from StarBiz;

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?f...37&sec=business

same comments as before.

thx cergau for the excellent link, i had difficulty finding something like that!

aaa... yes, Dr. Chris, the nephrologist at Serdang Hospital. I have a few MO friends there but none even knew about his other 'specialty'!!!

another academic voice is Dr. Lim Chan Koon, UNIMAS. One of his studies is included in Perhilitan booklet.

They go on holidays to the Carribean? Just kidding bro. I only noticed that the birds enter earlier during rain. Thats the limit of my experience.

So far not using any partitions... i don't know what to expect yet, can't estimate how many sqft of nesting area should be considered large enough for a colony plus most of the visits were to shoplot BH's (colony partition based on number of rooms). Since each floor is 30x80... it has 10 'petak' of 15x16ft (maybe around 13.5x14.5 minus the beams, and minus 1 petak each floor for LAL). The standalones i've visited most of them had no partitions at all... so i'm in the dark about this.

Nice to read the recent posts. Go ahead, the research. Perhilitan & DVS both claim they are 'currently in progress' doing research about swiftlets. They have been saying this since i can remember.

Scientific research... so far i only know of Dr. Lim Chan Koon's (yang Malaysian). You can read them in 'Edible Nest Swiftlets Management In Asia' compiled by Perhilitan. For associations, i'd suggest we go for SIA's or social impact studies since this can address the issues (baseless or not) surrounding the industry. This should be doable with the right approach.

Play whatever part we can for the betterment of the industry. Some friends say 'Why confront & provoke agencies?'... all i can say is that we should not feel comfortable and just wait for them to knock at our doors (especially enforcement)... i say we meet them head on and resolve the issues. We need hardliners for stuff like this. Write to papers, complain to agencies, communicate with politicians. Any of them trying to take advantage, we should be able to keep them in check. The KT by election was one rather crude but effective example (some say uncle tok was being harsh, i say thats the way to do it!).

Bro WW, cergau and others, thanks for your feedback and views. As always i will keep them in mind whenever i deal or approach agencies. I recently had a talk with Dr. Fadzilah Aini (Aneka Haiwan, and the authority about swiftlets from DVS). Mainly just wanted to talk bird and ask about the new GAHP, when it will be due for the public. The lovely doctor said by early 2010, it will be made public with some changes. She advised those who had attended the previous GAHP courses to also attend. I have a loose tongue and somehow commented on the old GAHP... i mentioned that it was 'shoddy' work and it gave the impression it was done in a rush. Little did i remember she was the one who wrote it! (totally forgot actually). Heck, i almost thought swiftlets were some sort of parrot or ostriches after reading that old GAHP. Lets wait for the new GAHP... she mentioned there was more involvement from the industry this time round in the making of the GAHP, maybe the Seremban workshop did have an impact after all.


Todays clippings;

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...2953&sec=nation

I can't imagine the jurisdictional nightmare and red tape faced by a BH owner in Singapore, if there is any. Singapore has strict standards and doesn't compromise. At least here in Malaysia we can bribe officials. Haha! (it's a joke, mind you).

Anyone here that has access to the yet to be released GAHP by DVS?

Calculated risks... for both agri land and commercial lots/shops. Either one, there will be some sort of risk or loophole the authorities let it be DVS, Perhilitan or PBT can take advantage to 'assault' ones BH. Weight every aspect... foresee each problem and anticipate possible solutions. This is somewhat a tactical war (well, i make it a personal war to ensure us swiftlet sanctuary providers survive (thanks again for the term WW)... tak kisah la commercial lot or agri land). Keep that in mind.

Ecoparks are just another way of commercializing the birds nest industry for people with deep pockets... and those proposing these projects with claims of 'we are licensed by the government' and etc are just in to get profits and monopolizing an industry that should be open to all. We all know that BH's have a certain degree of failure rate, going large scale in a limited area is to me, very risky. Anyways, i always believed that only a certain number/population of birds in a certain radius is required to have sustainable food source plus good quality of nests. We have all seen and heard of BH's that initially grew exponentially, suddenly the growth grows static... and becomes 'feeders'/'suppliers' of young birds to other BH's. I stick to my earlier position, Ecoparks are evil.

Dear Bobby C, i confronted this issue with a state level Perhilitan's Bahagian Perundangan. I used the conservation argument and the sorts... but in the end was cut off easily, as long as AF is a 'wild' animal... non-domesticated... it will forever be under the 1972 Act. It was declassified as a 'totally protected species' to a 'protected species' thus allowing permits of sanctuaries or ranches to be issued (i believe it coincided with the last GAHP). That was why i was silently hoping that Khairil Sani Wong guy to actually succeed (even though i believe it is impossible for a species as AF to be domesticated at all).

I am not sure if it was Perhilitan or Sarawak Forestry Department as well since Sarawak is governed by a different set of governance. Whatever it is, they themselves violated and i dare say killed those chicks. How can an agency kill the very thing its supposed to protect? 7 years ago we can say that the agencies, PBT's don't know shit about the swiftlet industry... but they should by now understand all the issues... somehow i get the feeling that some agencies do hear us, but they don't listen.

just informing; tomorrow 1st encounter with my local council. wish me luck. preparing a few things 2night.

thanks globalexm, but using the link below, its easier and faster since i find GEM's site loads kinda slowly.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsindex.php?id=464007

Hopefully all goes well with this new so called 1GP.


I would rather we comment on this clipping; (same as Bobby C's post)

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsindex.php?id=461591


Oh, by the way... 1st round with PBT... me 1, PBT 0. Huahauahuahuahuahuahahahhahaha!!! The story is, while i was out of state... got a call from the PBT's Legal Unit," Sir, our enforcement officers have visited your BH, would you please come by the office to clarify a few things". Ok, fine, traveled 6 hours home... made some copies of documents and slept. Early the next morning was in front of the PBT's office. FORTUNATELY the lady in charge was very polite. She requested a copy of the land title, to check whether or not it came under their jurisdiction... and was told to apply for business operating license as well. Since i had already prepared the necessary documents for applying a BH permit (since 2008), it was convenient when she asked me to apply for the permit, just in case it did come under their jurisdiction. Asked her to sign an 'akuan penerimaan dokumen' whereby stating it is only for this particular use and not to be used without written consent yadadadada...

Anyways... it turned out the land was not under them (rupanya, it is possible that some agri land may come under PBT's). Expected so. The deposit for operating a BH is around RM1000.00, the permit/license about RM300++ more or less annually (saved la some money). Surprisingly.... the PBT was very-very cooperative... they even LISTENED to what i had to say about the new GAHP coming out. They even showed me their circular/PBT's own guideline from Kementerian Perumahan & Kerajaan Tempatan (which i commented will be outdated once the new 1GP came out, and will be updated).

On request they showed me the logbook of people who applied and who already got permits for BH's. Around 50++. Anyways, wasn't snooping or anything, just had some anonymous details and data for my reference. These are my future brother in arms!!!

Anyways, i don't think it will end there. All the best, good luck to all of us that may face problems with nosy PBT's.

---

Added on December 24, 2009, 8:30 amI'll try clarify this later... but i believe that breeding might be allowed. A few examples of animals declassified from totally protected to protected are the landak raya & kijang. So there is a possibility its the same for swiftlets? legally it might be ok if we cite these examples but morally/personally i think its wrong. Anyways... how did that Khairil Sani Wong chap get to to it, and even publicized the 'revolutionary' method of swiftlet ranching? As i said in an earlier post, if the restrictions as chiongguo said were removed and the term domesticated is used (directly removing all the red tape except for PBT)... i'll be happy for the industry, but it'll be sad watching these free flying birds become... not so free flying.

If looked carefully... say IF perhilitan went bonkers and imposed a license/permit for breeding swiftlets for guys like Khairil Sani/Aeroswift... then it might be imposed to ALL bird house owners as well... SINCE BH OWNERS TOO ARE BREEDING & PROPAGATING SWIFTLETS by definition of word even though the method (naturally allowing propagation) differs.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Dec 24 2009, 08:44 AM

Yes chiongguo, those maybe the definitions, but as West Wing said, these people are smart, will lump it all together under one general Malay term and milk the rewards since they have the authority and power to do so. They will still use Bahasa terms... and we all know bahasa words can bring around 3-5 meanings in English... and i doubt they will use the definitions you gave. As i said previously, even the APHL1972 itself has many loopholes and unclear definitions of terms that are used and to me, abused by agencies.

Todays paper;

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...9002&sec=nation

Aiyoo cergau & West Wing... somehow those words make me sad T.T

But..... the truth be told by both of you. We have our weaknesses in the system. Do or die... since I (hopefully) have many years ahead of me... i'll do what i can... no matter how insignificant the effect maybe towards the industry. Hopefully it'll cause a small ripple... political leverage? dont have that. Economical influence? yeah right, i wish! All i can do is play the part as a consumer & voter... and of course as a citizen of Malaysia who loves the industry... mainly because i chose this industry not only out of passion & possible $$$ gains, but it suits my love for wildlife as well. Who said business & pleasure can't be mixed? >.<

Please let the new guideline be accommodating...

anyways since the new GAHP will be out soon, lets mass email Dr. Fadzilah nak? Requesting to be the first batch to attend the first GAHP course. >.<
i think her email is = fadzilah@dvs.gov.my

http://www.dvs.gov.my/web/guest/komoditi

(this part since we are 'consumers' or 'clients', tak salahkan nak email request to attend kursus?) >.<

To Frustrate, Not Facilitate. Nice one coolandy! That describes some parts of the public service to the dot! I agree with both of you, our country is selectively pro-business. We sell off national assets, devise hyped up projects which are dysfunctional, condone corruption by big wigs but prosecute small timers (has any of the higher ups actually been penalized & jailed???), we even allow leaders associated with murder/assassination to rule. And after 50 years... we are still unable to feed our own country! We are not sustainable.

One reason why, we once concentrated too much on industry (which includes rubber, cpo & etc)... left out the foodstuff. GLC's & AP's were formed to import & develop agriculture based products (you name an item, they have an agency for it)... but most of them had AP's... they left out the development part... some even extended the AP's.

So once originally an agricultural country... now we can't feed ourselves. I can specify many things about our agriculture landscape, but i fear i might go into too detail & blame specific individuals (i can't abstain from doing this vehemently... geram) so i'll refrain myself. Just know that there are fools in high ranking positions so stupid i compare them to a kerbau being pulled by the nose (at least kerbau pun kadang-kadang melawan & tanak kena tarik).

Another problem the moa is facing... the younger AO's & VO's and support staff. These young grads... many of them tak turun padang. They were not trained to do extension programs. They do not have the skills, adaptability and most of all the passion to do extension work. I sincerely hope moa can acclimatize/recondition these young officers for the sake of our country.

Another problem which i am sure we all know... is the lack of proper research coupled with clinical trials or in this case field trials/pilot plots. I'll give an example (not intended for anyone specific, but kalau terasa, means you deserve so);

Pelancaran baka baru... hmm... lets say... a chili plant. Lets name it baka 'RM Montel'. Kelebihan baka ini;
1. Berbuah lebih besar dan sentiasa berbuah.
(that is only in controlled conditions... labs, or small trial plots. Never proven in the field)
2. Berjangka hayat lebih 5 tahun.
(But the research took 2 years, how do they know it'll live that long)
3. Tidak memerlukan penyelenggaraan rapi
(consider this, even existing varieties aren't resistant to viral infections brought out by teritips & such... belum lagi pasal media & baja)

To Frustrate, Not Facilitate
ps. coolandy, can i use this? >.<

Hehe, thanks coolandy.

I have the same aspiration as West Wing... despite all the shortcomings our country has, let it be corrupt officials, racist policies, unfair trade etc2... i still wish and yearn for the betterment of the industry. In this sense we need to identify who are the opportunists with hidden agendas... and who are being sincere to improve conditions for both the SSP's & market pricing.

As Bro Cergau said, there are the Merchant Associations, Bird House Owner Associations and i have to add that there will be more state Bumi Owner Associations soon. I have given my view about these bumi associations but there is no harm in discussing again. What matters most is the function of these associations, do their voices bring weight or not? Do some people heading these associations have hidden interests? Just some questions we can ponder on. This intertwines with politics. There were rumors of a National Level Bumi BH Owners Association which was suggested at the previous workshop done by Perhilitan at Paya Indah Wetlands... but i don't think it'll kick off anytime soon (bukan apa, rumors said the association will garner funds from the government, how far the rumor is true, i have no idea).

Brother Cergau, i have thought of your queries for a while now. Demand driven market, manipulation by brokers/middlemen... and a few other factors which include government policies (as in licenses/permits & enforcement).

Lets say there is a body controlling BN's price, in this case lets fantasize DVS plays that role. A fixed price according to some sort of periodic calculation based on trading trends every quarter/month (i am assuming something like MPOB's CPO/FFB pricing)? Merchants can't buy below that price, BH owners can't sell above that price... same goes for export & import. Lets say the agency collects the data from registered BH's, meaning BH with permits to harvest... and merchants with permits to sell & export. Now here are some problems;

1. Sales mostly done in cash. Theres also no way a BH owner nor trader will sell/buy by disclosing the actual price to other people outside their circle, whatmore to the authorities.
2. How many traders/exporters/owners actually have these permits? Detailed records of source of BN, how many, weight, frequency of harvest... all will be asked during application with regular audits... do we really disclose our sources? Lagi-lagi bila sumber pulak tiada permit atau lesen. It'll be like stabbing your own brother.
3. I also doubt the rates will be followed. The more basic consumer items can't be controlled, whatmore something like BN.
4. If such a guideline for pricing is done, there will be more rules and regulation... which is definitely what the industry does not need. Biarlah buat deal kat kedai kopi pun, as long as both party agrees. Anyways, this is where the Owner & Merchant association merge and should function. Most Merchant members are Owners as well.
5. Also... it will open an opportunity for certain parties to monopolize the industry... government controlled. Again, to me is a no-no for the industry.

Just my pov.

No worries Cergau, not flaming or anything, just as u said, anticipating the possibilities since Malaysia is such an unpredictable place to live in. Superficially it may seem like a boost to the industry, but behind our backs it becomes a game of plotting monopoly. It is our function as individuals, association members, consumers, producers, promoters... to be aware of each and every action taken by authorities or even our own associations... rationally valuate the goods & bads and give our views. This is the check and balance system. I do not mind if protests are made if the new guideline is not conducive, we have a right to voice our views.

The suggested/rumored 1stopcenter... is an ideal idea. Less red tape, less hassle... but ONLY when they have the proper jurisdiction. If its function is only to shuffle paper around agencies to gain service charges... then it is useless.

Yes, they do charge RM1k for 'deposit', and annual premise licenses for around RM250-300. Depends on your local council. I have this bugging question... since SSP's come under the Industri Asas Tani, can't there be a negotiation to reduce such rates? SSP's do not do retail, fabrication, assembly, emit industrial waste or such other industrial stuff... its agriculture. We do not throw away the guano (since it is 'valuable', especially for new BH's), so far no risk of zoonotic diseases (at least unproven) and basically a low risk non-hazardous industry. With all the permits/licenses/approval/certificates needed, i sometimes think we are somehow Osama's minions secretly building a WMD instead of being SSP's.

West Wing, Cergau & Bobby C... all mentioned the same grouses... poor governance of the industry. Both sides of the political divide should give the proper support. Despite our current PM stating obvious support to the industry... the deliverance is still to be seen. Also where does the monet allocated inthe 2010 budget for the swiftlet industry go... we all must be wary of these things.

I posted a comment on this site;

http://www.selangorkini.com.my/my/berita/8238

but it looks like the moderator didn't give consent. Why go overseas when we have our own local expertise. Don't go to consultants... go to BH owners (well, some are consultants).

Also just realised that that KSW was the Pengerusi of PUSHPIAM... and at the same time owner of aeroswift consultancy. I can't fail to see that the JV between the two is blantantly because of his position.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Jan 6 2010, 06:07 PM

Todays news, looks like the GAHP will come out later this month.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...4483&sec=nation

I don't really understand the term heritage zone or how they classify it as such, but i wish they would turn things around by stating that SSP's are part and parcel of the word heritage as well. It's common knowledge that our Chinese Malaysians were the ones who started off the industry here.

I agree, the funds should be distributed wisely and solely for the benefit of the industry. Thats why i have always said... pour the wrong advice to these politicians... and habislah.

According to our PM's speech;
(item 4, for agriculture development)

Develop food farming industry such as fruits, vegetables, organic
farming, herbs, seaweeds and swiftlet nests with an allocation of
RM149 million

It should be a substantial amount??? Minus RM100m for the ministry & departments entertainment/meetings/press conferences/ceremonies/perasmians/useless sample BH projects/useless technology imported from God knows where/setting up of dysfunctional task forces/overseas visit to the Sahara dessert to learn about swiftlet ranching methods from nomads/ridiculous consultancy fees to con-sultants and a long list of INEFFICIENT, WASTEFUL & CLEAR ABUSE of funds... would leave the industry... a pittance (sorry ah, just continuing to enhance Cergau's point... which also means we have to be wary of such things).

I am sure Cergau is aware of that proposed National Level Bumi Association... either perhilitan is planning to manipulate such an organization to secure funds thus influencing the industry... we have yet to see. Associations should work WITH agencies, not work FOR. This should be clear.

Omg!! They can take my excess flab if they want!!!

I heard from some Indonesian friends... there are no such redtape, nuisances or much gov inteference over there... but in place of that there are lots of pecah masuk/tebuk gedung walit (evethough the walls are so damn thick).

haish... thats something we have to accept, maybe when the time comes oppose. the government sure knows how to 'gula-gula' the people (they've been doing it for a while now).

thanks Cergau... that duck is now my driving force to do what i can for the industry. go duck go!!!

if we're talking about help from agencies... i'd prefer DVS. I recently found out that certain individuals form another agency are acting as 'consultants' instead of a public servant. More surprising... the material used was taken from sources outside the agency... i compared some notes & pics... they were more or less the same. No matter. Not that important, just wanted to share.

Yes, the budget money is our money. I just wish DVS would have the common sense to post the draft publicly for people to give input & opinions (we'll definitely have a field day screwing them, but with basis).

Hehe... give credit when appropriate, give criticism when deemed necessary... or feedback as you said. Thats what we've been doing... some may think its a futile effort... i say its the least we can do. That idea, i've mentioned to DVS officers, but low ranking ones. Maybe we should email the higher ups.