Cool. So where's the local uni's research/studies? We have food tech, biochem/chem, nutrition, medical, health sciences/biomed faculties.... MARDI? Other research institutions.... but still rely on research from abroad. Except from some behavioral research by CK Lim, and one from UPM (protein composotion)... haven't seen much. Assuming EBN extract is taken generally without categorizing its actual contents or percentage... it still needs an activator or maybe a co-enzyme (Pancreatin F) to be in its active form against influenza. In other words, this is just lab work, not applicable just yet due to the lack of information and process. Secondly, inf v has a lot of strains. If the inhibitory action is non-specific, ok la. Kot specific to one strain je, no use also. Then again the inf v family has a common trait/feature. Lets see what happens. Lastly, the inhibitory action maybe secondary to another process. Possible.

No offense but our uni's are more like secondary schools. Not many dept or faculties have an intensive & committed research team. In continuation to Lucas 1's heartfelt post, and in relation tom academia... if there is available research based data, statistics, benefits, protien/chemical content of birds nests, plus education and proper briefing by the right people... i think it would contribute a lot to the industry. We are well aware of the jokers pouring advice to the authorities with possible self interest in mind... it should be countered by real advocates of the industry. Maybe a panel on Bernama's Consumer forum/program? maybe a slot on MHI/SPM, maybe a talk on radio? Maybe a signed petition to the authorities from an alliance of all state associations? Maybe make a birds nest associations presence be felt during by-elections? More press statements? Possibly look back at international conferences of preservation? Maybe link with KPDN's program of sustainable consumption? Maybe look at the possibility of inviting international news highlighting destruction & deaths of swiftlets due to BH closure? Huh... so many ideas but non can be done alone.

1swiftlet!!! >.<

1swiftlet!!!



This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: May 25 2009, 11:05 AM

Lucas 1... again... thanks for your valuable information. Thanks to West Wing as well... i have repeatedly mentioned to all regarding this method of approach... using international laws/conventions to counter state or federal agencies regulations. This again, can only be done by strong associations... which again spells unity among industry players. The information pointed out by Lucas 1 should be utilized wisely... and the proper qualified people highlighting this to the authorities. Yes, they might or might not listen... but if out of a hundred knocks on the door... theres a chance one day it might open. A mixture of academics, tauke's and association presidents should be capable enough to approach such entities as WWF or MNS. It is possible.
However as mentioned by some, there is also a possibility of monopoly... a counter check and balance mechanism must be in place. How, not sure myself. There seems to be so many agencies, so many NGO's, so many associations..... but none having the same aim, objective and methodology. Rojak.

1Swiftlet!!!

I wish our PM would read this thread... and V1 as well. Maybe he'd get a clearer picture than what his aides (most likely kipas2 people with agendas of their own) are advising him ?

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: May 25 2009, 07:08 PM

ChanK's post about the definition of 'endangered species' was enlightening. Just wondering if the definition varies based on species/size/lifespan/life cycle/breeding habits.

Don't know much about the audio, nor do i have much sounds to compare. Not at a level where trading audio is done nor at a level to synthesize and record my own audio.

Recently went to Temerloh... then shot to Kuantan. Despite being a medium sized town, Temerloh has its share of BHs. Kuantan... same like KT... watching the birds come home make me envious. Huh. I heard MPKtn was tolerant? Is that so? Anyway, Kuantan has changed a lot these past 7 years.

Missed out a lot. Crap.

Kudos to the 'Fantastic Team'. This is the synergy and teamwork we dream of. Don't know if the word 'conservation' ever surfaced during that 3 day workshop? What about the stuff Lucas 1 mentioned earlier, the associations and association sdn bhd, anything like that pop up? Regretted being away this June, the least i could have done was fire a few sensitive questions and point out a few stuff if i was there.

Thanks to the Vet Dept & Sirim? I don't think so. These agencies still do last minute jobs. When will they change. That attitude of the PBT guy mentioned by West Wing is exactly one of the hurdles we THEY have to overcome, ignorant, unwilling to change government officials (this of course includes those who practice 'under the table' dealings).

Even IF the industry is taken under JPV as a HVI, the framework, planning, implementation should be transparent and beneficial to all, not only a few parties. It should get continuous input from the 'Fantastic Team' and other parties with the proper technical experience as well (not to suck up, but by now i know how to identify sincere saviors of the industry).

I do not know the details since NONE of the attendees were willing to write a report/writeup of the three day workshop (THIS IS CLEARLY A SUGGESTION MIND YOU, haha!).

Uncle Ben, sorry for asking this publicly, but the Dr Anis Farhad, is he a Brunei guy (married to a doctor as well, same med skool), tall, spectacles with a goatie and used to play basketball/volleyball during his student years? he might be an old friend of mine, especially since he's in MERCY.

Hi guys... long time no see.

Bummer, had to read so many posts, interesting ones at that. Like someone said before, personal conflicts just pm each other and stab each other with words (honestly i find it entertaining but might irritate others).

I read the "Kertas Cadangan Industri Penternakan Burung Walet Di Negeri Johor" posted by ChanK and my sincere advice is to shoot the people involved drafting that piece of shit. Well, we can all try to educate them but i don't think these type of people are open to advice since they have ulterior motives, interests and obvious intentions of monopolizing... exactly what uncle ben and a few others predicted months before. Besides, why involve more and more agencies when the existing ones are not only deaf, blind and ignorant of the real issues but also refuse to comprehend that the industry is one heck of a source of economic growth and at times playing the race card?

One state starts off... others will follow... maybe not in opposition states? but hey, even the sabak bernam group was told of by ronnie liu? The authorities just won't listen. Someone start off a memorandum and collect signatures or something and shove it up our leader's ass (might be the only way he'd notice, ok, maybe not up his ass, might end up like DSAI).

Thanks for the Eco-Park info. Maybe we might get the names of the BOD or Directors of MD's or CEO's of these companies... but i doubt the real masterminds are exposed. Proxies... unless some of them are dumb enough to be directly involved. I'm sure some nephew of an ex-wifes cousin twice removed in-laws of one of the state directors are involved. I'm also sure that the main-con, sub-con is someone's neices second cousin's step sister c/o. Heck, 50years of corruption and abuse of power has trained the authorities well. Even the PTG of Gombak was able to entitle a 7 year old kid with land lots 20 years ago. Amazing Malaysia. Owh, did i mention... the always get away with it?

To me the swiftlet industry issues are fundamental issues revolving around our constitution, legislation, basic rights even animal rights and definitely politics. What, you think the swiftlet industry is the only one facing such problems? Lets try do our best together, in whatever capacity we can. To other respected forumers, please continue to give insight and invaluable info. To those forumers with hidden agendas or have masters they obey, just post and we'd rebut casually, since some facts.... remain facts. Besides, only CK Lim has solid scientific based evidence/researched based. What the hell does JPV have? Even their so called vets/ornithologists were briefed and taught by the industry players. Only recently have they started doing 'some' scientific based studies... and even so i'd doubt they'd use the proper methodology.

Suggestions have been forwarded, ideas highlighted, issues debated, input given to agencies... what would be the course of action if all things fail? just a question. Abolish ISA (Internal Swiftlet Act). >.<



for newbies like me... read the previous thread. from there read this one. then do some digging, find other BH owners. they may or may not be willing to share info and experiences, but what do you have to lose? i took almost 2 years researching on my own and shamelessly asking other owners (failed and succeeded BH's) before even going to the GAHP course. Even now i never miss out a chance to meet other new, old or upcoming BH owners to share info. Its become kinda like a hobby, besides good networking. Anyways, i love watching those birds fly home, even if they are not mine. They are such beautiful animals.



Also read the link from the Penang Vet Services, yups... outdated. Wonder if they're still living in the pre Merdeka Era. Wanted to comment on the so called GAHP and Animal Rights;

Di dalam mencatatkan Amalan Baik Penternakan Haiwan, beberapa perkara diambil kira iaitu :

1. Keperluan fizikal dan perilaku haiwan pembiak dan bukan pembiak;
(which is exactly what BH owners are doing, since we all know the birds will only nest once all the birds demands are met)

2. Perlakuan berperikemanusiaan;
(heck, giving the birds a free and safe home... thats very perikemanusiaan)

3. Keselamatan manusia;
(well, never heard of any AF transmitting diseases to humans. the urea smell? only the owners get a whiff and even then, they can wear masks. Can't think of any other harm to humans EXCEPT if some nest theifs were caught and the BH owners decide to chop some parts off, just kidding!!!)

4. Keselesaan pengurusan haiwan, dan
(newer BH's are definately properly managed with systematic removal of shit/guano, proper safety measures and some even certified structures(standalones))

5. Keuntungan yang baik bagi premis.
(depends. 1 nest/harvest untung ke? haha!)

‘Lima Kebebasan’ , sebagai kayu pengukur bagi kebajikan haiwan adalah :

• Bebas dari lapar dan dahaga.
(no need to worry since they feed for themselves. Except the ones in the Mukah incident where babies i assumed died since the authorities just piled them up in besens)

• Bebas dari ketidakselesaan, kehangatan dan fizikal.
(exactly what happens when authorities lock up, seal off and even break down BH's)

• Bebas dari kesakitan, kecederaan dan penyakit.
(same as above)

• Bebas dari keresahan.
(same as above)

• Bebas mempamerkan perilaku dan fisiologi yang semulajadi.
(they fly free enpugh, even fly to nearby BH's of competitors)



This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Jul 16 2009, 12:46 PM

looks like the tone of this thread has gone back to its original form, sane discussions with good info.

spent the last month in KT. Went to see a few BH's (outside only) and a few ones in the making. These were owned by friends of friends or friends of relatives and some relatives. it is fun making new acquaintances while talking bird. its also surprising how new knowledge is obtained from the most unlikely sources. different point of views also enlighten us on how little we actually know about God's creations.

was observing two BH entrances near terminal bas KT for 2 hours (5-7pm, looked like an idiot standing and staring while waiting for a bus to arrive).....
those who own BH's in KT are lucky. wish i had land there (Telemung, Serada, Pulau Rusa would be nice, but the land prices here have amazingly shot up after Giant & MyDin surfaced). even from there i could see the birds above the BH near YT.

I've seen resident birds coming home... i can say roughly that each second at least 5-10 birds swoop in while the others swirl around waiting turns. The numbers are reduced during incubation period and at this time they return earlier. Just some newbie observations.

Someone asked me about contractors for building a BH. I'll answer here if you guys don't mind. I won't and will never recommend a contractor since even i was screwed by mine. hahaha! (@%%$#!#@$!@$!$@!!! = incomprehensible swearing) in other words, DIY. but as a prerequisite, get the proper technical know how first and a good team of workers. buy your own material and supervise yourself. schedule it, never allow shortage of material. use premix for slabs... cranes and the works. this is of course if you have the time. get the design drawings from experienced old buggers, fortunately my bro is an architect so he could clarify everything including the material, detailed measurements and stuff. how much Y10, Y12, dawai ikat, pellets, BRCs and blablabla needed. in fact, i believe the cost uncle ben mentioned previously is obtainable. its just a matter of how much time and effort (money isn't an issue i assume) you are willing to sacrifice for this first baby (BH).

just in case you still want to get a contractor... review his previous work, credentials and referrals. Go see his or her (dont want to be gender biased here) completed work and ongoing work. dont go looking for house builders, most of the time it'll be disappointing. last but not least.... get everything in BLACK AND WHITE. hehehe, thank God i did. >.<

huh. true. forgot to mention my con-tractor was also my con-sultant. u can guess what a mess things are now. mistake done, lesson learned. fortunately paid him for the structure only, management is by mua.

as mentioned by many, get the pros to do the qualitative and quantitative stuff, if certifications of sorts are needed, settle 'em first... if not i think for standalones a grace of one year is given for such documentation once completed, kalau tak silap.

ok, here are some stuff i did before settling on the current location of this 1st BH they maybe enough, maybe not (before anyone asks me how i estimated the distance of things... theres Google Earth you know.. >.<);

1. observe over a period of 4 months at different times of the day and varying weather. had time in hand and passed by the land a few times a fortnight so what the heck. did it with and without audio... kinda like a placebo.

2. Plantation areas, lots of scourging areas. Palm, rubber, veges and the sorts. Got many mango farms, pitayas & banana plots.

3. Near water sources... got two middle sized rivers, and nearby fisheries/freshwater prawn ponds. All within a 7-9 km radius. just in case, mad a 30x30 pond about 800ft away.

4. Seen 16 BH's within a 25km (roughly) radius (basically drove around in different directions entering villages and whichever road i found). 1/4 of them had birds coming home... not like the thousands i've seen in KT or Setiawan... maybe within the range of 500-800 (didnt actually count, just estimated and visually compared with what i've seen) birds. Nests? How should i know?

5. Located between two rather popular locations with history of BH's (town & standalones).

6. in the mean time made friends with some owners, did some own research, and yadayadayada stumbled upon this thread.... till now trying to increase bits and pieces of knowledge. owh, did stumble upon one Harry Blog. Was fun reading but didnt agree on his try this try that attitude (at the time).

7. Made a few friends who were members of associations and from there had a better insight of an actual producing BH. Went dizzy the first time entering a BH. The smell and humidity was a wee bit surprising for someone used to air conditioning. balik tu demam, my wife gelak and said kena sawan bruung. hehehe!

Anyways, decided on the location because had a gut feeling there was a bloody successful BH somewhere near based on the number of birds observed day to day. Wished i was superman so i could just fly and track down the BH's location, kowtow to the owner and ask to share some knowledge and a wee bit of wisdom. Haha!

think people interested or newbies should start off with sumthin like this. never rely on one source of information... and never judge info simply because it came from con-sultants. its better asking friends/family if the have any connections with BH owners, get a free briefing or intro, from there seek your own path. go get that GAHP cert after that. thats just ceremonial mostly (no offense JPV). if you meet any so called con-sultants, simply ask, "can i go see your successful BH please?" and listen carefully how he/she answers. hehheehehe!

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Jul 18 2009, 09:42 PM

lol, think you got my message wrong ChanK, you can't possibly think i have such a shallow mindset. i'm amused myself. was aiming at newbies like me, not old seasoned buggers like you.

i meant many advertised consultants dont own their own successful BH's, and was more of an advice to be wary of such people who talk kok rather than talk bird, to verify their credibility and ability. this is out of personal bad experience (looks like sharing bad experiences here was misunderstood or misinterpreted), and unfortunately there are many of these types of consultants among Malays. i'm not comparing with successful consultants such as ChanK mentioned... good for you knowing for such a good consultant, unfortunately not all of us are that lucky. especially those new and lack info. What happens to the majority of people are;

1. read the roi's and get aroused with possible returns. forgetting the actual issues and probable loopholes what more the risks. some even get caught in those lots for sale stuff. especially those with money to spend and thinking of investing in something long term with minimal workload.

2. search the web or ask around for advice from consultants if lacking the proper connections with BH owners, in the end stumbling upon various websites offering consultancy and contract services at a relatively high price, when in fact they can actually build on their own with professional help from related fields and tips from sincere or good consultants.

3. kelabu mata watching those birds fly around during location checks... totally ignorant of the fact that making birds fly around an audio is totally different from making birds enter a BH and making nests.

well, these are some of the stuff or stages that can easily be manipulated by con-sultants. you know this and so do i. i have been ridiculed so much by friends and family about this industry since most of them have heard many negative stories about such projects gone bad due to mis-advice or mismanagement by con-sultants despite claiming proudly to be the number on consultant in Malaysia and what not. some even mislead government agencies and the effects? some agencies have stopped giving support/loans/grants. all thanks to such con-sultants. kapish?

Secondly, don't take advice blindly from consultants, no matter how many successful BH's they claimed to have assisted. all of you know that what works for one BH might not work for another, and most of the time only the owner knows his own BH best, besides the owner also being his own BH's worst enemy.

About PERHILITAN's & customs actions against those Viet traders... unlawful, yes. Who are we trying to kid, even if they had the proper permits and proper taxes paid... i'm sure the authorities will still kacau them. This is Malaysia. We even have friends ending up dead falling from 14 story government building while being interrogated by government officials... up to 3 am in the morning???. If they value life that lightly... u think they'd care about a few Viet nationals? All i believe is we need some sort of total change, reshuffle, revolution in government. 50 years of a single party in power has made the supposedly functioning agencies, judiciary and government tools incapable of differentiating a political party and a ruling government. My tone may sound biased and incriminating... but the fact is, it is not this industry alone that is in plight.

Imagine if the Johor Proposal was implemented... involving more agencies, and monopoly of licensing... bad... very bad news...

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Jul 19 2009, 11:35 AM

sorry brother ChanK, used an unfair tone in the last post. Was a bit upset of recent happenings in Selangor and unfairly called you an old bugger (even though most of the time i use the term with compassion and love). i respect most of the forumers here as big brothers since they have knowledge and wisdom only time and experience can give.

So meranti should last for 20 years? Assuming this with proper BH maintenance, good quality wood, no leaks and what more?

Although realized that there was not much good or help to the industry complaining about politics, corruption, dysfunctional agencies and the sorts. Based on the main complaints by the public (irregardless of their bad intentions, jealluosy or malice), i think we can safely say that they are;

1. Noise Pollution

Due to 24/7 music played, not enough degrees (60 degrees angle), wrong decibles and not according to the time allowed. Putting errant BH owners aside... we have discussed that this can be overcome by those roof-top entry holes. With this, even the decibels won't pose much of a problem unless too near a high rise building.

2. Air Pollution

Ok, don't laugh. We know the stench can only be smelled within the BH. But is has been complained before and often with no substantial proof. Unless you next door neighbor actually has a crack on the wall next to your BH.

3. Health Concerns/Zoonosis

No proof of H1N1. No proof of any transmission of viruses or bacteria from swiftlets to humans or vice versa They do spread ticks among colonies. But this is no excuse, since the authorities are using this against BH owners, why not make a golden standard procedure for entering/harvesting/maintenance work of BH's starting with associations. Make it our prerogative.

Such simple things as wearing masks, head lamps, safety helmets or etc. Get NIOSH's approval or something and make them recognize that yes, it can be a hazardous job doing maintenance works/harvesting, but we are well prepared for it.

Disease wise, make it compulsory for submission of samples for screening. maybe once a year or every two/three harvests. No charges, it should be JPV's job for monitoring. Maybe lias with any university doing research about the industry, confirm free screening services since they need the samples and data! The old GAHP had a bloody long list of avian diseases, but no mention at all if swiftlets were hosts or intermediate hosts or not. Its like one author asking the other author "hey, apa eh nak tulis pasal penyakit layang-layang ni?, and the other asnwering "Ntah, cut paste je senarai penyakit burung letak dalam tu, abish cite".

Give no loopholes or openings for them to complain about hazard or health issues.

4. Hygeine

More or less the same as above, except ensuring entrance (for humans, not birds) are kept as sterile as possible, maybe make it necessary for washing boots/shoe ware every time entering leaving the BH. Like those GAHP procedures for entering integrators system reban ayam tertutup (was even mentioned in GAHP Swiftlet as well). a suitable washing solution must be used, no odor. I think the terms used by JPV is bio-security. Show them we have that...

5. Structural Safety & Hazards

this one should be commented by a structural engineer or someone with the expertise. i have no idea. since this is the main issue of town BH's i think someone can comment.

Having said all this, can someone post a sample application for BH permit? Tak kisah la mana2 location/pbt pun. I have no idea how the authorities evaluate a BH, based on what, before an application is approved. What standards do they use, what index do they use to rate a BH as acceptable and what is not and are those requirements practical or just additional red tape with malicious intent. I sternly believe that such ratings/checklists should be prepared by the industry, not agencies which lack technicalities.

I read the old GAHP again. I think they were writing about Hornbills or Ostriches, maybe some extinct flying dinosaurs... honestly.... the GAHP was too complicated, too many unnecessary details and some totally useless items. It seemed the authors wrote the GAHP in the state of severe diarrhea and dehydration... intermittent ideas here and there... and were forced to submit it within a day. But they did mention biosecurity, and basic stuff one should know.

Blablabla. I talk too much. JPV must hate me.

if got any news clippings of recent raids in Sarawak, please post them here. I don't think we should tolerate another Mukah like incident.

any news of when the guidelines/proposals resulting from the Seremban workshop will be revised or discussed or finalized? is there any appointed independent adviser to the PM's dept regarding this matter? Or is something like the Johor proposal likely to sprout out? Past experience have shown that MP's/Ministers/PM's/Directors can easily be mislead and ill advised by so called 'think tanks' or 'advisers' who have hidden agendas. Hope the minister involved isn't advised by a spin doctor.

I love you guys.

Read many pages back. MIA as usual.

West Wing, is there any chance that the heavy weights in the industry can hook up with MNS or WWF? I think the only way we can remove AF from the protected list is by getting such parties involved, using the UN Animal Protection policies as a solid base for lobbying. A family member has met MNS's head once, a Singh if not mistaken. The impression i got was that he is a person of firm beliefs, sincere and walks the talk. Even his home is environmentally friendly & self sustainable. I have no idea of his stand regarding this industry, but there's no harm in poking around eh? As i mentioned before, there are a few ways we can approach this;

1. If someone can spearhead a study of AF population in both town and standalone units... a proper research. Proper methodology, lit review, proper sampling, questionnaires... the works.... something of academic standards that would make it hard for people to doubt the results. Based on this the industry reps can slap PERHILITANS face, even JPV's. By right, this should be PERHILITAN or JPVs jobs, but i doubt they'd even think of it. Even better, get an institution involved. UPM has a veterinary department, i'm sure there are some ornithologists there. Our beloved Lim Chan Koon maybe? He's more than qualified.

2. A petition/memorandum. Online or not. March like the 1st August? Hehehe! Not to that extent for now.. but a signed petition to revise PERHILITANS jurisdiction over EBN and town BHs should be done. Considering its PERHILITAN thats killing the industry.

3. Isn't there someone advising the chap from Jabatan PM about this? Or are they scheming something bad for the industry again (like OneAgencyControllingSwiftletIndustryAtoZHowToMakeMoneyFromThisInAMannerOnlyTheGovCanGetAwayWithIt)? Was the workshop and the input given by our kepala's in vain? Is there any follow up? This may sound ridiculous but a suggestion like an Inquest or Suruhanjaya Khas Industri EBN would be nice. Problem solve... authority. But then again... theres nothing ensuring that the panel member won't be one sided or selected based on loyalty to certain quarters. Hmm.....

Removing PERHILITAN's jurisdiction is one thing, preventing another agency from gaining MORE jurisdiction is another. Kudos to those who spoke out the truth towards these agencies. We try to do our own part, even for someone as insignificant as me... i try to be vocal when possible. Always believe change takes time... but a simple idea or action will have a ripple effect given time and persistence. Staying idle won't do much help.

I... will get very emotional once talking about race. For one... it is my own race that has defiled the sanctity of democracy of our beloved country. Its difficult when you have a ruling government that can't differentiate what is a government and what is a political party. Whatever it is... the 1Malaysia concept... we've been doing this for many years now. Even since '98. From a small ripple... now a tsunami. Give some more time... hehehe, who knows? Makkal Sakhti!!!

Rambling as usual. Uncle Ben, Auntie J dah bersara and kerja kat UN! Anyways, theres more to meet the eyes with humanitarian aid. >.<

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Aug 5 2009, 02:55 AM

Sorry Uncle Ben, what i meant is that Mercy Malaysia has gone beyond what other NGO's in Malaysia ever dreamed of, not even PPIM or ABIM has such an organized aid structure (except for the army of course). Government support, solid international networking and now, the UN where she can now facilitate Mercy from a higher end position (exactly as you said). Actually i was hoping if she had any relevant contacts that might assist in the AF industry. What comes with humanitarian aid to other countries and our own, is a following of politicians, businessmen, opportunists wanting to get a little bit of credit for other peoples effort. True or not? >.< Mana tau ada a few in JPN, JPV or relevant agencies. Maybe direct to PM... since bird's nest is somewhat relevant nutritionally... malnourished kids... lacking essential amino acids, all 8 of them (8 i think). Mercy should start recruiting from med school (each intake, make it a point to ask the med school to give talks about Mercy). Don't recruit HO's, kesian wooo... maybe dormant MO's with no intention of furthering masters or mrcp/cs/cog. Got many of them. Lazy buggers.

Our PM did mention yesterday (Star 5th August 09 N4 'Agropolitan way to eradicate hardcore poor')... Agropolitan as part of the ECER... "other activities in the pipeline are birds nest cultivation, mushroom planting, tailoring, tourism & home stay programs"...[I]

Birds nest cultivation sounds weird. What i can guess is that soon... maybe in 2-3 years time there will be a government program or project regarding birds nest to help eradicate the poor. Assuming a size of 25X60/40 ft... a successful BH can sustain at least 30-50 families (maybe more?), with minimal workload (relative to the number of family members) but rather high initial cost. Maybe one YBK (Yayasan Basmi Kemiskinan) BH per kampung? Per daerah? Who knows what those pouring advice to the PM would come up with. This itself is an opportunity to gain profit... chose the wrong consultant, choose the wrong contractor... all bungkus like those people that got MARA/Tekun loans... and again tainting the industry with a high failure rate shunning away financial institutions and agencies that would have helped.

My point is... if i were as experienced as those here, i'd form my own group or c/o, come up with a own proposal to the relevant buggers, something like the above, get a grant under one of those gov schemes and make a pilot project involving the hardcore poor. If not, just spend some money for a medium sized one, get endorsement as a pilot project (formally, black and white and make sure guarantee of future contracts with success of pilot) from the relevant authority... This is of course after considering the feasibility, location, etc2. Pilot project proven ok (plus credentials and a good number of profit making [as a track record] BH's under the groups belt plus plans on processing, marketing blablabla)... sapu semua la... dengan syarat... properly consulted, properly built, properly maintained. Not enough getting contracts to build? Offer training to the people involved, the gov tanggung. To me i don't really care who gets such a program as long as it is fruitful and proven as a solid poverty eradication program. More successful BHs he better. More acknowledgment of the industry, the better. Then go spread the idea to Indonesia. State owned BH to eradicate poor (kinda an extreme idea ain't it? crazy man talking).

Ya la West Wing... there are some owners in KT that totally disregard others. I dare not comment much about KT town BH's, the fact is, its BH owners that cause more trouble than even the PBT (saja carik pasal with pbt and openings for public to complain). Might sound like a MBKT dog. Haha!

From Bobby C's post;

"Call for ban of swiftlets farming

But as the industry expands along the east and west coasts of peninsular Malaysia, opposition to the swiftlet farms is growing louder and environmentalists are demanding a complete ban.

There are also allegations of cruelty as some "farmers" reputedly destroy chicks and fertilised eggs in order to harvest the nests at times when prices are high.

Conservation group Friends of the Earth has condemned the trade and called on the government to close down the proliferating swiftlet farms.


"This rather impetuous booming industry has led to complaints from the public due to the nuisance, health hazards and the number of bird hotels coming up," said Mohamad Idris, president of the group's Malaysian branch.

"Collectors may not wait long enough for the young to fledge, often throwing the chicks onto the ground or leaving them to die after taking the nests," he said.

"In view of the problems faced by many in the farming of swiftlets and from the welfare point of view of the birds, we would like to call for a ban on all farming of swiftlets.""


Kepala buntut Sahabat Alam Malaysia / Friends of Earth. How can they comment such when they don't understand the bird's behavior.

From their so-so website;

Perjuangan SAM adalah untuk memelihara alam yang diamanahkan dan dianugerahkan Tuhan daripada dieksploitasi dan dimusnahkan dalam pelbagai bentuk atas nama pembangunan, kemajuan dan kemodenan serta membela hak masyarakat akar umbi yang terkesan akibat-aktiviti ini.

Dalam mengembangkan wadah perjuangan alam sekitar ini, SAM telah di beri penghargaan dengan penganugerahan Global 500, Honour Roll 1978, Alternative Global Price 1988, Goldman Award 1991, Conde Nast Travel Environmental Award 1998 dan The Right Liverhood Award.

They should realize providing safe sanctuaries for the birds to breed, we are giving a hand to conservation and whats more, its a win-win situation and this is exactly what sustainable consumption means. Those awards, notice the years? ages ago... maybe those dinosaurs have to update their knowledge before commenting on things they non nuts about. think i'll write to them (thats the only thing i can do anyway).

Yeah, thats the spirit, gogogo Organic! I do composting, bokashi. I do some gardening and once in a while organize organic home gardening workshops (fortunately a member is a horticulturist). Its true that if every household does a little organic kitchen garden, it'll help ease the cost a bit. The problem is, consistency and maintenance. First few months after the workshop... ok... after that... lazy. >.<

Sorry guys, just bumping in to tell you guys to read Starmag (23 August). Kudos to Datuk Beh & Dr. Lim.

Will comment later about that "revolusi penternakan burung layang-layang".

Just some things that Dr. Lim & Datuk Beh failed to get in the paper (maybe because of censorship);

First of all is how essential it is for revising or removing Aerodramus fucipagus from the endangered list, saying so there is a need for PERHILITAN to go back and read the definition set by international conventions. To strengthen the first point, there is a need for a national scale independent survey/study on house nests/swiftlet farms population, epidemiology and other necessary information. This research can further prove that there is no known case of bird flu transmission from house swiftlets to humans and at the same time rebutting any claims by any counter productive agency that strives at killing this industry. Let PERHILITAN monitor cave nests, they have no right oppressing house nests/ranch owners.

The second most important issue is the location of swiftlet hotels and jurisdiction of local authorities. This has been a never ending story since both the hotel owners & local authorities are playing the blame game and at the same time both are at fault. One side being errant not following guidelines blasting sounds 24/7 and other violations of undang-undang kecil PBT, the other not issuing licenses even when all terms are met. This is where the race issue is commonly played. There is no easy solution for this, and the authorities must carefully go through options that will benefit each party fairly. The 1Malaysia concept is essential.

Next, is the issue of con-men claiming as professional consultants of the industry. One of the reasons the failure rate is as high as 80% (according to Dr. Lim) is due to unscrupulous individuals or groups charging ridiculous amounts for advice/consultancy for bird house projects that are doomed for failure. There must be something done to curb such parties from damaging the industry's image.

Last but not least is educating not only the public, but also the agencies involved. Many a time i have been personally disgusted at how negative some agency officers can be when talking about this industry, and this is out of their own ignorance and refusal to understand properly the issues involved. Words like "Saya tak minat dan tak nak ambil tahu pasal rumah burung" and similar attitudes is not uncommon.

Hopefully those from the Prime Minister's Department are getting proper advice from the proper people. The wrong advice from the wrong people with hidden agendas will result in some form of industry monopoly (outsourcing licenses/permits/taxes/endless red tape etc).

Guys, please read the Star Friday 28th August page N56 (its time to ban farming of swiftlets). A view from an idiot that lacks proper information and no substantial evidence of the accusations.

true2. errant farmers etc2. but what i'm pissed off is... where the hell was Sahabat Alam Malaysia during the Mukah incidents? To me they are just a group of so called conservationist that are selective besides being biased. They have been awarded with;

Global 500, Honour Roll 1978, Alternative Global Price 1988, Goldman Award 1991, Conde Nast Travel Environmental Award 1998 dan The Right Liverhood Award.

but notice the years... by now they (knowing Malaysia as it is) they've probably become puppets for certain quarters/politicians (like the protest against ZIPY, why only during PAS's leadership? Notice they only make memorandums and such only in opposition controlled states). My own opinion though (biased as well, haha!).

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Aug 28 2009, 12:07 PM

owh, didn't know there were cases of swiftlets being minced and roasted by aircraft engines. i thought those birds had superb echolocation abilities (bloody good hearing) and could hear aircraft engines from miles away. besides, the roaring of an airplane engine must be deafening to them. i'm sure even if there were a few deaf swiftlets around they'd be fast enough to maneuver away, i think la.

anyways, nothing can be done i guess since its MPSp thats making the initiative with PERHILITAN making the rules... no mention of any aviation governing body guidelines.

Anyways, wanted to share some info (kalau ada yang belum ketahui), please refer to http://www.pet-cockatiel.com/act.html, website since perhilitans using pdf.

ok, AKTA 76 AKTA PERLINDUNGAN HIDUPAN LIAR 1972. Funny theres no definition or criteria of those species listed in jadual 1-4. Binatang liar matang ke tak matang ke is easily understandable... the term DIPERLINDUNGI [b]and DIPERLINDUNGI SEPENUHNYA[ is the issue. What makes them diperlindungi, what makes them diperlindungi sepenuhnya? There is no mention of population or epidemiological based reasons or due to difficulty in breeding (still population) or the habitat is too specific or loss of habitat (epidemio) which in the swiftlets case... NOT RELEVANT AT ALL. There should be an international convention to the word 'protected species'... but heck, this is Malaysia. If PERHILITAN somehow wanted to put not fully domesticated cows or pigs or dogs in the list (well, matches 'binatang liar', no mention of separuh liar or fully liar), theres no stopping them. As Dr. Lim mentioned, commercial swiftlet ranches or the term used by brother West Wing, Swiftlet Sanctuary Services... has indeed contributed to conservation. With more bird houses, i can't see any reason why its still in the list except for;

1. Control of CAVE nest harvesting. Which in that case make the list more specific to mention CAVE nests. Bukan susah pun.
2. Tax. MONEYMONEYMONEY.

How can an outdated, incomplete Act with so many abusive loopholes still be in usage.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Sep 2 2009, 07:34 AM

Dear bro Optiplex330. I think the best way is to observe the birds up close at the nearest BH in your vicinity. I think you can identify them by the way they fly, and given time, even by the body make from afar. correct me if i'm wrong, but AF rarely flies low (slightly above ground level) even for feeding. I'm no expert anyway.

Referring to Dennis Gong W.J.'s VIEWS (the star, N45, 2nd September 2009), "Swiftlets Are A Real Hygienic Lot"... we have to thank him since his email was published. It gave a truthful and simple view for the public, at least making it known that AF is a no litter/shitter on your windshield type of bird. It seems to me that only those involved in the industry (his dad has a BH) understands the truth behind the nature of this bird and again... as mentioned many times before it is up to us to educate the public.

Nature Lover gave another view; "No short-term gains from swiftlet farming", (the star, N50, 3rd September 2009) also supporting the fact that AF is hygienic and adding a few other facts including AF as a natural pest controller and a high sought out commodity... but was against eco-park type of ranches (i agree with this since saturation and food limitations will occur over time) however stressing agriland BH's should be the benchmark not shot units. He did mention about ranchers conforming to GAHP... i don't think he realizes just how the current GAHP is not practical (besides being a cincai guidline) and more applicable for agriland BH's. I did like the mention of swiftlet scams though, kinda rampant nowadays.

Notice how papers and the mainstream media are now highlighting the issue? Sounds like somethings brewing within the government that might give a strong impact to the industry. lets just hope its for the better.

HOREY!!!

Good news guys.... please refer to the star Friday 4th September, VIEWS "Swiftlet Farming Will Boost Economy" by Dr. Amerjeet Singh for the Secretary-General of Natural Resources & Environment Ministry. Link below (didn't know it was available on staronline, would've post the others as well, haha! noticed just now from Lucas1's post >.<);

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...31332&sec=focus

Finally... a government official giving a statement unclouded by hate or bias. He clarified most of the misconceptions simple and clear. Hopefully the way he mentioned "currently protected under the Wildlife Act 1972 [Act 76]"[I] is an indication that things will change. I think half the problem will be solved if AF was removed from that list, removed from PERHILITANS jurisdiction. Also hope the new guidelines will bring positive impact towards the industry.

"Currently the DWNP, together with related agencies and with cooperation from Bird Nest Associa­tion, is revising the guidelines on time usage to play the audio."

Lets cross our fingers that the associations working with the ministry are people who put the industry first and not self interest. Besides... i think associations can advise more, not just audio guidelines.


This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Sep 5 2009, 03:04 AM

i seriously missed something here.... brother West Wing... why again are you in the hospital??????????? i wish you a speedy recovery. wish all the forumers to be fit as a fiddle and on our toes ready for any issues.

i agree that there are not many black sheep, most of us rather not provoke authorities at the risk of threatening the existence of our farms. the problem with black sheep's.... is even though there is only one in a visible herd of thousands..... it can be easily seen by anyone from afar by anyone. the public loses sight of the thousands of whites... and notice only the black. These blacks on the other hand are not necessarily association members... and if they are, the association has limited or lack the enforcement power towards their own members (anyways, kalau dah tak takut dgn pihak berkuasa, do you think they will heed advice from associations?). Coming to this point... besides making it compulsory for owners to be members of associations, some might see a need for empowering associations with such authority... which to me may lead to another damning consequence... associations abusing that power. i don't know if this has happened before though... just a possibility.

I can only think of another solution for now... since associations are those controlling or having links with brokers and middlemen, they can try making it the associations policy to promote BN's only from owners that have a clean record, good harvesting practices and no complaint record (which can also be applied to export requirements). Blacklist those black sheep. Maybe ada la sedikit effect. (this of course be overcome by the black sheep, sellin cheap or sellin thru a white sheep friend, but worth giving it a shot).

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Sep 7 2009, 08:45 AM