In terms of trophies, Ferguson has done them all, and several times at that.

In terms of building up new teams, Ferguson has seen several revamps of the MU team, has had several key players left and still rebuilt the team into champs.

He has my respect in those regards.

I think he's too proud though.

Just wanna highlight...different league different standard...Eg, if I won Scottish league 30times, u rate me higher than SAF?

Everyone has their own opinion. Agreed.

Problem is you like to contradict your own opinion. First you said something then you said something else. I have highlighted all your contradicting posts on my previous post.

we should have open a thread of best manager in liga perdana malaysia...malaysia boleh!
in future if wan avoid bias just open a thread call best manager of club xxx...haa then there will be a fair poll...

If Ferguson is proud then what is Mourinho ?
Out of this world ??????

i doubt it. spl had been dominated by 2 club far too long. walter smith won a combined honour of 15 with rangers, yet he
'phailed' with everton. while moyes had been doing pretty well.
martin o'neill won about 6 combined titles with celtic and he is doing great at villa at the moment. best bet!
ferguson won titles with st mirren, aberdeen and manchester united. staying for 20 years without being sacked is already a commendable achievements.
traps won titles with juventus, inter, bayern munich and a few other clubs.
so does lippi and a few others.
maintaining the success rate in the long run with different set of players is fundamental.


he is a self professed 'the special one'

It's simple, you can spend or you can save. In the end, you have to determine which works best. I have said that the thriftiest manager is not necessarily the better manager and I doubt you'd disagree. If a manager spends and wins trophies ala Ferguson or Mourinho, they will get the recognition they deserve from their fans. Only opposition fans will claim the 'bought' the trophies. In the end, it is them that will have a healthier bank balance and happier fans. If a manager chooses not to spend and still wins trophies, NO ONE can say a bad thing about him. What about if a manager had the funds ($50 million pounds I believe it was), didn't spend and didn't win anything, falling near the final hurdle? I don't know about you mate but I for one will be wondering if we could have gone further had we added a couple of players or so to the squad. To each his own.



I may be wrong but this article ranks you 5th on the "biggest clubs" list, in terms of revenue. http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/0...ER-FINANCES.php

If anything we (Liverpool) are in massive debt now, after our owners took out loans on everything, even Torres belongs to the bank.



Don't know who you're referring to, I made no reference to his man management skills.

Wenger was appointed manager in 1996 right?

As for your backline at the time, read my post. I said, "solid at the back". I did not say, "solid foundation". At the time Wenger took over, Martin Keown and Tony Adams were 29. Both were England internationals. Dixon was 32 but played for England until he was 34. Winterburn is the notable exception, being unlucky enough to be playing the same time Stuart Pearce did, and he was 32. I did not say they were players for the future but as you can see, they remained mainstays of the Arsenal defence for another 3 season.

I haven't a doubt Wengerl will go down in your history books as one of your greatest every managers. Take a look at the thread title. Man Utd have dominated the Premiership since it's inception under Ferguson. They have also won the Champions League twice under him. I for one cannot say that in time, Wenger will be remember as the better manager especially by neutral fans. If you think otherwise, fairplay. I do however think some other Man Utd fan will come along and tell you how Ferguson has built a foundation for the club, etc AND he has the trophies to back it up. I hate Ferguson, no big secret but I find it hard to argue with logic.

Pardon my ignorance but how has Wenger brought you to the Emirates?

As for building a foundation, you'll know it's there when you've built an empire at the top of it. Only time will tell.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jun 11 2008, 05:46 PM

in case if u dun know, that is called stepover

I completely agree with what you said, and I’m absolutely confident in majority of veteran gooners’ happiness.

I brought my point up because it sounded like you were criticizing Wenger’s frugality when you said:
“The thing is this, he had the money to spend especially in the summer but chose not to. Was this a wise choice? Would a better manager have thought it appropriate to bring in a star or two to shore up the squad and give them some experience given that they were challenging on all fronts?”

I could’ve misunderstood.

If Mr Yanks in Liverpool happen to screw up, they could always dig into their own pockets ala Mr Abrahamovich although this is questionable judging by the magnitude of turmoil up above in Liverpool's boardroom. But you see the point is Liverpool has the owners and the banks behind them while we have only the banks behind us. You have two, we have one. Get why I insinuated we're in a more precarious position, if something were to go wrong, than the rest of big four?

You said it yourself in the initial post’s first paragraph that it’s about how much revenue the club nets, not how much the club saves. I’ll prove this point later about Wenger laying the foundations for Arsenal FC.



That snide remark wasn’t aimed at you, it was meant for other people.

I was commenting on this section of your post when I said solid foundation:
“He built on one with solid foundations and with the addition of several young and up and coming stars, prepped them for the future.”

Arsenal’s backline at that time had a combined average age of 31 years (The 4 you mentioned together with Remi Garde and Steve Bould – I cant remember the names of two others). An aging backline is hardly solid foundation for the future/Wenger but ok, I agree with you the back was solid. Yes, he came in 1996.



Didn’t I say I’d be ignoring the polls? But fine, I beg to differ. Ferguson would be known as the more successful manager in terms of trophies while Wenger would be remembered as the man who commanded an entertaining and historic team.

I struggle to understand this : “Ferguson has built a foundation for the club”. What exactly is your definition of foundation? Specifically trophies or general involvement in the club's overall progress?



An excerpt : "It was Arsene Wenger who was egging us on to go for the new stadium. He is an ambitious man and we have taken some risk to get where we are."
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtm...24/sfnbos24.xml

The complete refute to your following uninformed claims would be:
Will Wenger always be building a team for the future, and never focusing on the present? Will he in time, be remembered as a great manager unless he wins more silverware? I'm sure most will answer with an empathic, "yes!" but what if another comes along and wins more silverware? Will Wenger be remembered as the one who laid the foundation? Will his name echo in eternity along with the other great managers?

My point is that unless you make a deep impression on the foundations of the club, you must have silverware to have any credibility. I'm not saying Wenger is a failure, he has won titles but he has however yet to enjoy any sustained success. Arsenal do play good football and I do enjoy watching them but the only thing that will linger in the memories of football fans, is what they will have achieved under Wenger.

This. Wenger brought us to the Emirates (great revenue) which would tentatively prove to be pivotal for the incoming managers, brought us to the club’s first Champions League final, netted a couple of doubles, created an unbeaten squad and most importantly created an impressive network of talent scouts for us.

Long story short, yes Wenger will be remembered regardless of him winning trophies because he is foundation.

i prefer to say it that way...

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:12 amI do agree that maintaining different sets of playes is fundamental.
But still, the standard of BPL and SPL is totally different.
The likes of celtic and rangers can be champion in SPL, can they do it at BPL?
The same heres.
Take an ori kit compared with thailand handmade ciplak kit...there must be certain difference between those 2.
Winning titles in aberdeen in 80's doesnt mean you can win the title again with aberdeen now.
The football nowadays is totally different from what football is in the past.
The standard of football varies by league.
It is the truth.
Hence, the best manager shouldnt just solely depends on the numbers of trophy..
Many things have to come to consideration.
and to me, there is no such thing as THE BEST MANAGER.
Everyone loses at least 1...BEST MANAGER should never lose

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:19 amTrophies doesnt mean anything...
especially those winning with small gap...there isnt anything actually to proud of at all...
Luck do play some part.....if u ask me

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:27 amif u take mourinho's porto, then is comparable...but chelsea?

how much they spent in the past and how much arsenal spent?
for the past few years, i can only see them selling their star and buying 2-3 players which cant even compared to 1 31m shev..
and you said the achievement is comparable?

speechless

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:33 amAs you mentioned before, maintaining the success rate in the long run with different set of players is fundamental.Hence, it proves that lippi done a great job, isnt it?]
and reading your post, indirectly, you are telling us the numbers of trophies should be the priority of judging the best manager instead of the quality of the cup?
oh my, then pls hail anyone who win more cups than SAF even if it is u18 team or u12 team...

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:37 amThat's 06

Not me...scolari is one of the best eg...he is good in international...he sucks in club team...

This post has been edited by Jason_T: Jun 12 2008, 09:37 AM

before man u winning cl, where is MU when chelsea qualify for semi?
Given JM the same amount of time, he will deliver the same number of trophies for chelsea as well..
SAF took 10years+(since he joining since 80's) before winning in 1999(CL..which is called STEADY while liv 2005 is called LUCKY) give JM 10 years..ops...nono..just compare the years..hw many years JM in porto before winning CL? you do the maths..

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:45 am I remember mANU fans telling me that quality counts before quantity.
They said every year liv signed quantity players and mANU signed quality players...

now now, take back the words, eh?
I wonder quality or quantity should come 1st...

Comparing the achievement in SPL with BPL/La Liga/Serie A is totally nuts, if u ask me..

This post has been edited by Jason_T: Jun 12 2008, 09:45 AM

mu lost to milan in semifinal

This post has been edited by MADReaLJL: Jun 12 2008, 09:46 AM

and i doubt saf can keep trophies at home...medal can la..trophies?u think his hse is OT a?
and i dun think medals can fill up a cabinet as well...

the awards like manager of the month u call it what?
he won it numerous times

1 time semi?
and can u pls do the maths of JM in porto compared with SAF before winning his 1st CL?

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:49 amso did AW, AG,JM...I did never hear their fans say the cabinet is going to be full...
That's typical arrogant, if u ask me

This post has been edited by Jason_T: Jun 12 2008, 09:49 AM

porto is banned from ucl next season, caught setting up the match

and if not for scholes valid goal considered offside by referee, i doubt chelsea will go for mourinho that time

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:52 amif u know what is the meaning of joking, u wont post that

This post has been edited by MADReaLJL: Jun 12 2008, 09:52 AM

so, cant the same thing applies to Liv?
In 2007 cl final, ac milan might be setting up the match as well since they was caught the same years...and surprisingly they still get the chance to play.
Hails rafa then?
Nono..There is nothing to do with it.Won means won it.
There is no such thing as they set up the match and so on cos even if they did, they r not going to return the trophies, are they?

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Added on June 12, 2008, 9:56 ami cant sense the joke...maybe abu

This post has been edited by Jason_T: Jun 12 2008, 09:57 AM

i just typed it for info, the real argument is the below one, but heck its already the past..

during milan's time uefa still didnt have rules to be applied for that, correct me if im wrong

This post has been edited by MADReaLJL: Jun 12 2008, 10:01 AM

your statements contradicts to each other. first you said, spl is nothing like epl, then you asked us to compare JM's time in Porto? Awww, come on. And yeah, luck does play part in everything. same can be said when Liverpool winning the UCL in 2005?

don't you think, same can be said as, where was Chelsea before they win the EPL? or, since you like to banter so much, I can say something like where's Liverpool for this 18 years?

It's just banters. If you can't take it. Ignore it. One thing, I did noticed a couple of Liverpool's fans having their siggy like "Moscow, UCL Final : Liverpool vs ?" or "United fans now can see the UCL trophy in Anfield". Learn to give and take.

So, won is won eh? same can be said by winning the league with 2 extra points of the runners up?

You're totally unbelievable.

Credit is given where it is due. SAF has maintained to head United's for 22 years and still counting. It's not easy to keep your job especially these days. I pity JM for being sacked because he didn't managed to win UCL. I've always think he is a master of tactician and he's good at playing mind games. Credits to Rafa for having a total go in UCL. It's consistency to reach UCL semifinals numerous times in just a short period. He even almost win it twice. Arsene is not being called 'The Professor' for nothing. He made superstars out of nothing. Two of most gifted players he has created, Henry and Fabregas.

As someone has asked, what are the criteria for best managers? And what are the measurements of a best manager? How to measure?

This post has been edited by boxsystem: Jun 12 2008, 11:44 AM

nobody is perfect.... but best manager win over and over again with different set of players.
best manager should be able to stay at one club for 20 years.... either maintain the consistency / success rate or get sacked!
as simple as that!
a manager is as good as the trophies he collected. grant inherited an 'already complete chelsea squad' and managed to get 'em into 3 finals; but he win nothing. nah, if he win the treble, i am sure he will be remember as bigger coach than mourinho. even if he isn't at the same league.

if trophies doesn't mean anything, why is that all the manager around wanted to win 'em badly?
why bother to create a competition just to find a worthy winner if trophies mean nothing?
commercial purposes? personal satisfaction?? for the fan or for fun?
mu strike a jackpot in the recent ucl final against chelsea. thanks to terry's slip. thats sheer luck

those titles listed doesn't included the kiddo stuffs. get the fact right. i never mentioned about u18 or even u21.
we're discussing clubs and national managers; about bpl, la liga, scudettos, eredivisie, ucl, wc and those of the same standard.
what do you mean by the 'quality of the cup'? those treble won by mu aren't good enough? how about the the liverpool's 05 ucl win?
of course, i understand the recent double by mu doesn't fit into your u12 or u18 judgements?

read thru my post again... ferguson, traps, lippi and perhaps the current england manager is a cut above the rest.
mourinho, wenger and rafa is catching up. some other coach had proved themselves at international stage, yet they failed with clubs' assignment.
you can play sexy football and entertain the crowd but the fan / everyone will surely craving for trophies.
until wenger win the ucl with his boys, he will be best remember as a near man.
the amount of money he spend on players is as less as his trophy collection.
the amount of money rafa spend on his squad is as good as his istanbul shocker.
the amount of money chelsea spend for players and the success that comes with it is overrated.
lets see what scolari can do with the vast resources of chelsea.

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Added on June 12, 2008, 1:17 pmmourinho is good, no doubt, his achievements in europe is better than wenger.
nah, he won with smaller club like porto but he didn't win it with chelsea when he was given almost everything; highly expensive assembled team
their whole squad value is equivalent to a combined value of mu and liverpools' players.
he get the boot, anyway. blame it on roman
hopefully he'll do better at inter.




This post has been edited by yngwie: Jun 12 2008, 01:17 PM