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 Is spaying / neutering your pet cruel?, Please read the first post before voting

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QiQio
post Jan 14 2008, 11:53 AM

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Yay...at last i able to read something nice here...i wan to be ur gf too...oppss...kidding lar...i got bf d..eehehhe

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I said "REDUCE" not "CONTROL"...

Yup...u neuter it coz he got cancerous tissue in it rite? dat is fine...is like i having breast cancer and i hv to cut off my breast...is not i dun hv breast cancer and i hv to cut of my breast ok?

Well...so do u find the vet nice? his consultation fees is the cheapest i found so far...ehehe

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I still dun see dat coming...but i'm old enuf to make my own decision...
Pennywise
post Jan 14 2008, 11:56 AM

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Argh!!! I wanted to click No! to Neutering / Spaying but it turns out I clicked on No! Spaying / Neutering your pet is not cruel!


QiQio
post Jan 14 2008, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(Pennywise @ Jan 14 2008, 12:56 PM)
Argh!!! I wanted to click No! to Neutering / Spaying but it turns out I clicked on No! Spaying / Neutering your pet is not cruel!
*
Huh? dun get wat u mean thou... rclxub.gif
madmoz
post Jan 14 2008, 12:03 PM

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Hahah penny you subconcious is telling you that neutering is good...
jaunty_niel
post Jan 14 2008, 12:05 PM

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ok, lets take some examples. if all of you have been to any SPCAs before, then i guess you'll probably have a mindset that spaying/neutering is not cruel. many of you do it for the sake of your pet's health, which i think is reasonable. why are there SPCAs all over? because there're too much unwanted pets/animals and these kind people are there to help rehome them, to help them have a second chance.

stray dogs/cats out there, they breed rapidly. i think most of us seen cases like cars ran over these poor animals alive. to neuter/spay them, it can reduce the number of stray cats/dogs out there, reduce cases such as the area government giving out money rewards if they can catch stray dogs. i think sending them to death by euthanasia/tembak-tembak is worse than neutering/spaying them. nowadays, even pure breds are unwanted.

my family made a mistake by listening to the vet's advise to bring back my rott after it reaches 1 year old. my rott got pregnant at 8months old, and she had 5 puppies. we had to give away some of them as the area government only allow a corner lot house with 4dogs. we received letter warnings by the area government that if we dont reduce the amount of dogs in our house, they will have to "take action". luckily a few relatives/friends adopted them, if not, what can we do? send them to the SPCA and wait for them to die? or just dump them at any rubbish site for them to survive themselves?

owning a pet means you have responsibility to ensure that every choice you make is based on the benefits of the pet. it doesnt mean that if you own a hamster, then your responsibility is lighter because its just a small life. why breed your pets when you're unable to pay full responsibilities to all the babies? no time, cant afford, family problems, accidentally "mated"... these excuses all come to mind when they cant get rid of the "unwanted breeds". if you cant bear those responsibilities, dont breed your dog!

*p/s: i'm not pin-pointing anyone. just used to using "you" when writing stuffs. readers can always change the "youS" to "theyS".
QiQio
post Jan 14 2008, 12:11 PM

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Well...accidentally mated do happened to my ham ham....all the stupid Pets Wonderland at Midvalley convinced me dat i'm having 2 male hammies...but end up is a male and a female and gv birth to a ton of little hammie...:headache:
dat is really unexpected one... whistling.gif
jaunty_niel
post Jan 14 2008, 12:15 PM

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hmm.. dat nearly happened to me too. my bro wanted a pair of hammies, and the shop owner told me that he's giving me two males. but in the end we got 2 females = =

well, we humans are special and different from other animals because we're considered more intelligent. we have the power to change something, to protect the other animals [sounds bit familiar, i dunno where i heard this] i guess spaying/neutering is one of the steps that helps strays..
madmoz
post Jan 14 2008, 12:25 PM

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I have a male MS and a female MS living together, both intact. And the MS group already knows how much trouble (and money on pampers) that I go through every six months. I am thinking of spaying/neutering both for health reasons but the fact that i have to knock them temporarily with anesthetics puts me off.

Why?

Because of this...
Attached Image

Now this is CRUEL (ear cropping). When I first got my MS, a showbreeder adviced me to crop his ears, and I blindly/idiotically/gullibly did. Unlike spaying/neutering this is a totally unnecessary procedure akin to cosmetic surgery cry.gif I hate myself to this day for doing it.
And right after the operation, you could see my poor boy shivering, yet he won't respond when you call or pat him as he is still hasn't woken up. It is a heart wrenching sight, and after that regular vet visits are needed to clean to sutures & change the bandages cry.gif

If anything, always get a second opinion on everything - the showbreeder has her reasons and I don't blame her. I blame myself for not being knowledgeable enough, hence i repeatedly ask ppl not to impose human feelings/wants on their furkids.

Also, if your precious furkids were to 'suffer' an operation and you have to be 'cruel' once only in their lifetime, please let it be a neutering/spaying procedure.

This post has been edited by madmoz: Jan 14 2008, 12:38 PM
QiQio
post Jan 14 2008, 12:27 PM

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Aiyaa...i dun wan to stay at this thread any longer...it somehw poison my mind...i stay firm with my tinkin..so sry guys...any offended here..pls 4gv me..i'm just a pet lover like u all dats all...diff ways of loving my best fren only..ok..tata! smile.gif
jtl
post Jan 14 2008, 12:36 PM

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Personally, I feel that if you are not breeding your dog/cat, then you should neuter/spay your dog/cat. However, if one believes that neutering/spaying is not the right thing to do, then that should be one's prerogative. All I hope is that one is aware of all the ramifications involved and be responsible enough to deal with those ramifications.

I think this threads like this is good as it allows for an issue to be debated, whether rightly or wrongly but it seems that some are not able to debate with intelligence and maturity. Yes, I do understand that everyone has their 2 cents worth (including me) but it would be nice to read threads that are informative and most of all, mature.

For example, I may not agree with Pennywise (sorry!) but I applaud the manner in which he has stated his take on the matter.

My point here in a round-about way though it may be, is please be rationale when putting your point across. It makes for more pleasant reading smile.gif
krynzpeaches
post Jan 14 2008, 03:02 PM

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QUOTE(Pennywise @ Jan 14 2008, 11:50 AM)
For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for your pets?" section, here is my reply:
Removing reproductive organs, testicles and stiches = UNNECESSARY OUCH!

But it's only a once in a lifetime procedure. Would be more painful to deliver babies twice every year of your life I would say (ofcourse this applies to female while the happy male dog just shags)

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for you?" section, here it is:
Spaying and neutering may bring a lot of good for them like living longer, reduce health problems, more affectionate companions, less territorial, show nervous behaviour, attract unwanted male, behaviour and temperament problems, less likely to bite, get into fights. All these are natural and these are the distinct features about them. Every breed is different, do you modify them to be more submissive? Do you slice off your breast to avoid breast cancer? Why dont we chop off our legs and put on a mechanical one so we become indestructible like Robocop?

Modify to become more submissive? Well ain't that bad for a having a more handsome little boy at home wink.gif

But if I do have breast cancer, I would chop off my breast!


For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for the community?" section, here:
A lot of positive for the community does not mean I am about to slice off my poor kid's balls just because of the world. We really should not have that sacrifice one to save all mentality. All we have to do is be more responsible. I know everyone cannot be like that, I will let God deal with that.

If one feels positively-positive (if there is such word) that later in the future he/she will not contribute to selling or giving off or dumping their pets off spring and contribute to the over population of unwanted pets, then fine, don't neuter.

FAQs

4. My children will not have the chance to witness "the miracle of birth."
Now this is bullshit because why would anyone want their children to witness such a gory scene? They will have their chance when they deliver or when they watch their wife do.

Agree.

5. Neutering is cruel and painful to the pet.
This I have to agree. Would you like to be put on the cutting board just cause your mom thinks "OK, let's stop our family generation tree."

Hey it happens to human too.

6. We don't need to neuter males because they aren't the ones having the litters.
Oh man, come to the world of animals and we still have that preference of male is more superior than female just like the traditional Chinese mentality?

Yeah, males are not the ones having the litter they're the ones having the fun and pissing/marking all over the place only tongue.gif (strictly referring to pets)

7. I don't want my male animal to feel like less of a male.
A "male" isnt determined by the balls.

True and bravo.

9. It's too expensive to get my pet(s) spayed or neutered.
So is owning a pet for 15 years, give it up then.

So true wink.gif

Forgive me. notworthy.gif

Forgive me too! tongue.gif notworthy.gif
*


Oh dear, the board won't let me post until I reply something here cuz quoted replies does not count laugh.gif

wink.gif
KP
aureliux
post Jan 14 2008, 05:27 PM

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Well, i think neutering your pet is not cruel.. in fact it might be cruel if you dont neuter them... I hav ferrets, in fact ferrets can die if you do not mate them when they are in heat, They female will die a slow death. That is my main motive to neuter my daughter. The male will have better temperment after neuter, and they will live longer, less prone to health problem. So i think if you are not a professional breeder and just wanna breed for the heck of it, then i label you as cruel. As you know animals risk their life during pregnancy and laboring, you are actually putting your lovely pet in danger everytime you breed them.
I do not breed dog so i m in no position to say anything. But as a normal human, i sometimes do pity stray dogs and cats, they are full of health problems, mange, infested wounds, out in the rain, cold, no food, famished... abused by other humans... Its so sad... I think the problem starts with why should i neuter my pet... Many ppl just wanna breed coz puppies is cute but wat happen when they grow up? will you continue to feed 8 dogs? walk them 1 by 1? Or just let them out by themselves? If they run wild, they will breed again... This is a never ending cycle. We are not the one who suffer, its them who suffer. You might hav a pure bred dog... but how many will you be able to keep? You might wanna sell them out after the gave birth, but wat if you cant sell and even if you manage to sell them all, you might not earn anything as the matter of fact, you might be loosing money. You will need vet fee, food, time to care, and all the hidden cost that you might not see right now. I know a freind who have alot of dogs, but they devote all their time for them. That means no long term vacation, no movies, no yam cha... If you are able to do like them then, i would agree with you. If you were to breed, pls plan for things to come. If you hav a child of your own, i dont think you just wanna bring them in to this worl right, you will need to think of university, their future, their health. Its the same of breeding your pet...
hamster9
post Jan 14 2008, 09:14 PM

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QUOTE(jaswwp @ Jan 14 2008, 10:16 AM)
Its not nature to have 2 animals of different gender stay together and "shag" as you put it. In the wild they mate then they go their seperate ways. Putting them together and letting the male harrass the female all day can be stressful for the female especially if the male is really high libido. I'd rather neuter the male and leave the female as she is rather than the other way round.
*
and allow other male dogs to intrude your property?

QUOTE(krynzpeaches @ Jan 14 2008, 10:28 AM)
Neutering males are easier and less complicated than spaying females thus the cost is always higher to spay.

Spaying needs a minor surgery, but neutering is much-much less.

Do you know that if you neuter/spay your pet they can still "shag" all they like?

Even if you have a vasectomy, you can still "shag" all you like.

Spaying/neutering is not removing the sexual organ itself, it just removes the part that produces the "thing" to create off springs.

doh.gif
KP
*
Neutered males who has not mate before do not know how to shag compared to neutered males who had already experienced it. Same goes as smelling females "on heat" urine

Vasectomy only ties up the Vas deferens tube of the human male anatomy. Which means they still have their testicles intact that plays a vital role in producing the hormone called testosterone. Testosterone is important in determining a male behaviour which includes their sex drive. Means it can human can still in your language "shag" because their sexual drive is still there as the hormones remains (literally)

In neutering, it involves removal of the testicles. Which means if you neutered the animal, they do not exhibit the characteristic of a male. Which means their size would be the same as their female counterparts as male hormones promotes the growth of their size and also head. wink.gif

QUOTE(QiQio @ Jan 14 2008, 10:57 AM)
AS I mention, pls imagine ur next life as a dog and being neuter by ur master...how does it feel? huh? huh?

U say for their health sake which i tin is a pure rubbish...den y dun u neuter urself now? Den it will reduce the risk of AIDS, penyakit kelamin....and also no poor kids on street...lesser crime cases..like Nurin...tin again ok? Dun act like u r the only one flowing with warm blooded ok?  vmad.gif
*
Neutering yourself does not mean the reduction of AIDS or penyakit kelamin (STD) because it's via blood or bodily fluid contact to get it doh.gif

QUOTE(crazymouse_yyh @ Jan 14 2008, 11:37 AM)
What is not a wise choice? Neutering?

That vet has been treating my dogs for years, as young as I was 10..... he was the one who neutered my dog to save him from cancer..... he was the one who neutered my other dog for he said it could work for dominance behaviour..... he was the one who spayed my female dog because she was in a home with many male dogs.....
*
2 sides of the story. Yet I hope people in LYN Pets Wonderland do not get too overboard with matters. Especially information found in the internet. Ought to take it with a pinch of salt I'd say. In your case, yes...it does save lifes and that you have to do it because that's the only way out. The removal of infected organs.

I'd say, if one is responsible enough then it's fine by not neutering/spaying your animals. For the least it does bring out their gender characteristic. Else, if living in a neighbourhood of dogs and cats, I'd suggest to do so to avoid any problems later.

My word on Neutering and spaying...it's all created for the conveniences of mankind, not the animals (excluding the health part) be it for birth control, be it for ur male animals to stop scent marking, etc

This post has been edited by hamster9: Jan 14 2008, 09:16 PM
Pennywise
post Jan 14 2008, 09:27 PM

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krynzpeaches,
Once in a life time is still painful and this kind of pain cannot be compared to the pain of birth-giving because watching their offsprings is the joy of life, humans and animals alike.

If not submissive = less handsome meh? Look ma-si-like-that... Sama sama saje. And no, touch wood, dont talk about yourself like that. Take "one", dont use "I" - if one have breast cancer, then she should chop off her breast.

POsitively-positive, you must be refering to me cause that's exactly how I feel.

hamster9,
It's all created for the conveniences of mankind --- All I have to say to this is hell yeah! I'm all with you!


Added on January 14, 2008, 9:36 pm
QUOTE(madmoz @ Jan 14 2008, 12:25 PM)
I have a male MS and a female MS living together, both intact. And the MS group already knows how much trouble (and money on pampers) that I go through every six months. I am thinking of spaying/neutering both for health reasons but the fact that i have to knock them temporarily with anesthetics puts me off.

Why?

Because of this...
Attached Image

Now this is CRUEL (ear cropping). When I first got my MS, a showbreeder adviced me to crop his ears, and I blindly/idiotically/gullibly did. Unlike spaying/neutering this is a totally unnecessary procedure akin to cosmetic surgery  cry.gif  I hate myself to this day for doing it.
And right after the operation, you could see my poor boy shivering, yet he won't respond when you call or pat him as he is still hasn't woken up. It is a heart wrenching sight, and after that regular vet visits are needed to clean to sutures & change the bandages cry.gif

If anything, always get a second opinion on everything - the showbreeder has her reasons and I don't blame her. I blame myself for not being knowledgeable enough, hence i repeatedly ask ppl not to impose human feelings/wants on their furkids.

Also, if your precious furkids were to 'suffer' an operation and you have to be 'cruel' once only in their lifetime, please let it be a neutering/spaying procedure.
*
For me, I have a low capacity for pain and guilt. Any cutting is cruel. I can understand what you feel now. I can feel the pain and I know you regret but let it go dude. Just treat him better from now on. Thanks for sharing.

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 14 2008, 09:36 PM
TSwon
post Jan 14 2008, 10:50 PM

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Thank you everyone for their valuable feedback! notworthy.gif
The posts in this thread has been interesting. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, if you share out your side of the view as well, perhaps we might learn something and help others to look at the issue in another point of view. Do feel free to post your opinion and we may have a courteous debate on it.

For example - in the senario where you have a male and a female - which one will you spay/neuter? both?
From pasarmalam, he mention that he would spay the female and leave the male intact. Jaswwp would prefer to neuter the male so that the female will not be harassed and get stress out. I think this is pretty reasonable. Then, Hamster9 point out that by just neutering the male, it will still invite the other male to intrude on your property and that might not solve the problem, which is pretty true. I admit I didn't think of this until it was pointed out. blush.gif

Any owner who has the pet spayed / neuter care to share the experience of the process? How long is the surgery and does it take a long time for your pet to heal? Any complications? Thanks!

p/s: Pennywise, thanks for putting up your stand in this matter even you are outnumbered. tongue.gif I think your posts has made this thread very interesting!



Pennywise
post Jan 14 2008, 11:34 PM

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won,
I will take that as a compliment. Board should be like this to keep things alive. Funny jokes and personal views - freedom of speech and beliefs. Thanks a lot for listening.

Yes, I would like to know about such details as well - how long the surgery take, how long it takes to heal, what are the risk (infections, etc), etc.
Hunter_Mx
post Jan 14 2008, 11:42 PM

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Oops Ter- use boyfriends ID to post, didnt realized he hadnt logged out will post with own ID below

This post has been edited by Hunter_Mx: Jan 14 2008, 11:44 PM
Cimredopyh
post Jan 14 2008, 11:45 PM

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Theres a woman who lives on the same row as my family home who is amazingly kind enough to catch female stray cats, take them to the vet and pay out of her own pocket to have them spayed
why do i say 'kind' ?
well...because the life of a female stray is pretty much giving birth non stop the body getting weaker and weaker with each birth. Not to mention the poor worm ridden kittens who almost never survive. They keep getting sick, starving, getting run over by cars and if they manage to make it to adulthood only end up in the same situation as their parents.
I really look up to this lady, its hard to find people who care and actually DO something to make a difference. Talk is cheap.
Feeding strays is well and good, im not saying dont do it (i do it too) but unless you are willing to care for them full time, even i have to admit that the sad reality is that it changes..well...pretty much nothing

'It's all created for the conveniences of mankind'
Yes it probably was created for convinience. But to be fair you must realize that not every pet owner is doing this for their own selfish reasons. There are many very valid, very real reasons to do it for the health of the animal.

If you are choose not to have it done and can be 100% responsible for your animal and its offspring thats ok with me.
But to say that spaying/neutering is cruel, i think this is a rather one sided biased view of it, as in the example of the lady above and in so many situations that are easily overlooked, I have to say that spaying/neutering is the kind, resposible and humane thing to do.

Needless to say i voted for neutering/spaying. Both my cats (adopted from a litter abandoned behind my house ) have had it done
Pennywise
post Jan 14 2008, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(Cimredopyh @ Jan 14 2008, 11:45 PM)
Theres a woman who lives on the same row as my family home who is amazingly kind enough to catch female stray cats, take them to the vet and pay out of her own pocket to have them spayed
why do i say 'kind' ?
well...because the life of a female stray is pretty much giving birth non stop the body getting weaker and weaker with each birth. Not to mention the poor worm ridden kittens who almost never survive. They keep getting sick, starving, getting run over by cars and if they manage to make it to adulthood only end up in the same situation as their parents.
I really look up to this lady, its hard to find people who care and actually DO something to make a difference. Talk is cheap.
Feeding strays is well and good, im not saying dont do it (i do it too) but unless you are willing to care for them full time, even i have to admit that the sad reality is that it changes..well...pretty much nothing

'It's all created for the conveniences of mankind'
Yes it probably was created for convinience. But to be fair you must realize that not every pet owner is doing this for their own selfish reasons. There are many very valid, very real reasons to do it for the health of the animal.

If you are choose not to have it done and can be 100% responsible for your animal and its offspring thats ok with me.
But to say that spaying/neutering is cruel, i think this is a rather one sided biased view of it, as in the example of the lady above and in so many situations that are easily overlooked, I have to say that spaying/neutering is the kind, resposible and  humane thing to do.

Needless to say i voted for neutering/spaying. Both my cats (adopted from a litter abandoned behind my house ) have had it done
*
This is the best sounding post I have ever read and what the woman is doing is really something worthy of respect. How does she catch the cat? If you put it in a cycle like that, I can see the picture better.

Female stray cat ---> Birth ---> Worm ridden kittens ---> Sick / Starve / Run over by cars ---> Adulthood = Female stray cat = REPEAT. Even though I agree with this but I only see this as a point of view for strays and not properly home owned pets. If we were to house a pet, we were to care and be responsible for it for life.

Thanks for your input. This is really something. THanks!

Mr. Z
post Jan 15 2008, 12:08 AM

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If u think that spaying or neutering is bad, think about not giving your male dog to do it when the female you own is on heat. Think of their frustration and anxiety knowing that its there, but he cant do it. Males often have this kind of problem when there is a female on heat nearby. Thats mental torture if you think about it.

Are you sure that you can watch after your dog 24/7, making sure that they dun mate? what if they actually do? Do you have the financial capabilities? space? time? for another litter of dogs? Yes, you may be able to take care of their first litter, imagine half a year later another accident occur, what are you going to do with the next litter? a dog have an average lifespan of 12 years, which mean they maybe pregnant around 18 to 20 times. What are you going to do for this 18 to 20 times?

You would probably think of selling it if accidents do occur, but what if you own two different dogs? what are you going to do with their offspring? and what if you cant sell them off? Have you consider that you might be contributing to the local mixed breed population? There is enough in spca and paws and throughout the streets.

Final word, its up to the owner whether to spay or not, but the please be responsible with the them especially if you own more than one dog.

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