I know its good for them but somehow, I just cannot bring myself to do it when I only had Casper. In the end, I got him a partner, Moonie and decided to take care of them for life.

I always think - your mom thinks it's good for you, send you to the chop board - how would you feel? Unfair la. I'm not letting my dog make the decision, I'm making the better decision for him as a good owner. If we talk about the amount of stray dogs on the road, then that's a different case.

In the end, I feel spaying and neutering is for SPCA, not for home owners. That's just my humble thought. Thanks for reading.

Basically, I feel that human should not play as God. I will always believe that its meant to be and let mother nature takes it course. This is why I am against spaying and neutering. I know not every owner is a good owner, not everyone can be responsible. Some are careless, some just dont have the time, others have different excuses.

Simply put, I believe that "Do not do what you dont want others to do unto you."

won,
I understand your point and I know many of us will have differing views about this topic of discussion. It's good that we have topics like this to keep the board alive and going.

Like you said, it's the owners decision and responsibility to take care of the pet. When I bought my dog, I made a vow to my girl (soon to be wife) that if I failed at taking care of them, it will only reflect how poorly I would be if I am a dad. I did that because she is a pet lover and I want to be good and right now, as an owner, I would dare say I am doing the right thing.

xecton,
The home owners dont have to do it. They just have to be responsible. I know we cannot care for all our pet's offsprings. There are bound to be 'accidents' sometimes and more puppies come along the way. How I see it is,
1. Give it to your relatives where you can often visit
2. Sell it to a new home - I believe if people fork out money from their pockets, they are bound to be more responsible. If you give it to them free, they are bound to be more careless.

If they surive, it is their life. Whether the next owner wants to spay, neuter or even put them to sleep is the sins the next owner have to bear.

If you guys dont mind, here are some of my views on what was posted on the first post. I know I might make some enemies from this post but please dont mind the language and this are just some very personal views, for fun. Dont be offended and sorry if you are.

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for your pets?" section, here is my reply:
Removing reproductive organs, testicles and stiches = UNNECESSARY OUCH!

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for you?" section, here it is:
Spaying and neutering may bring a lot of good for them like living longer, reduce health problems, more affectionate companions, less territorial, show nervous behaviour, attract unwanted male, behaviour and temperament problems, less likely to bite, get into fights. All these are natural and these are the distinct features about them. Every breed is different, do you modify them to be more submissive? Do you slice off your breast to avoid breast cancer? Why dont we chop off our legs and put on a mechanical one so we become indestructible like Robocop?

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for the community?" section, here:
A lot of positive for the community does not mean I am about to slice off my poor kid's balls just because of the world. We really should not have that sacrifice one to save all mentality. All we have to do is be more responsible. I know everyone cannot be like that, I will let God deal with that.

FAQs
1. I love my pet so much, I want another just like her.
Buy one.

2. A female cat or dog should have a litter before she is spayed.
Up to individual.

3. My pet will become fat and lazy.
Yea, it might be and so will the owner.

4. My children will not have the chance to witness "the miracle of birth."
Now this is bullshit because why would anyone want their children to witness such a gory scene? They will have their chance when they deliver or when they watch their wife do.

5. Neutering is cruel and painful to the pet.
This I have to agree. Would you like to be put on the cutting board just cause your mom thinks "OK, let's stop our family generation tree."

6. We don't need to neuter males because they aren't the ones having the litters.
Oh man, come to the world of animals and we still have that preference of male is more superior than female just like the traditional Chinese mentality?

7. I don't want my male animal to feel like less of a male.
A "male" isnt determined by the balls.

8. My animal is a purebred so breeding her won't contribute to the problem.
Purebreed or not is alike. In China's one child policy, being richer than others does not mean you're allowed 10 kids.

9. It's too expensive to get my pet(s) spayed or neutered.
So is owning a pet for 15 years, give it up then.

Forgive me.


This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 14 2008, 11:54 AM

Argh!!! I wanted to click No! to Neutering / Spaying but it turns out I clicked on No! Spaying / Neutering your pet is not cruel!

krynzpeaches,
Once in a life time is still painful and this kind of pain cannot be compared to the pain of birth-giving because watching their offsprings is the joy of life, humans and animals alike.

If not submissive = less handsome meh? Look ma-si-like-that... Sama sama saje. And no, touch wood, dont talk about yourself like that. Take "one", dont use "I" - if one have breast cancer, then she should chop off her breast.

POsitively-positive, you must be refering to me cause that's exactly how I feel.

hamster9,
It's all created for the conveniences of mankind --- All I have to say to this is hell yeah! I'm all with you!

---

Added on January 14, 2008, 9:36 pmFor me, I have a low capacity for pain and guilt. Any cutting is cruel. I can understand what you feel now. I can feel the pain and I know you regret but let it go dude. Just treat him better from now on. Thanks for sharing.

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 14 2008, 09:36 PM

won,
I will take that as a compliment. Board should be like this to keep things alive. Funny jokes and personal views - freedom of speech and beliefs. Thanks a lot for listening.

Yes, I would like to know about such details as well - how long the surgery take, how long it takes to heal, what are the risk (infections, etc), etc.

This is the best sounding post I have ever read and what the woman is doing is really something worthy of respect. How does she catch the cat? If you put it in a cycle like that, I can see the picture better.

Female stray cat ---> Birth ---> Worm ridden kittens ---> Sick / Starve / Run over by cars ---> Adulthood = Female stray cat = REPEAT. Even though I agree with this but I only see this as a point of view for strays and not properly home owned pets. If we were to house a pet, we were to care and be responsible for it for life.

Thanks for your input. This is really something. THanks!

Dont worry about that catching-the-cat part because I'm just interested to know how a lady does it since cats are usually so agile. It's amazing, her skills and love for those pets.

Strays are a direct result - I cannot argue with that. A give birth to B which in turn give birth to C and D and E and C will probably give birth to C1, C2, C3,... so on.

I know what you mean and its hard to be idealistic. People here possibly think I'm just ignorant. I'm not so much of a pet person until New Year 2007 when I got Casper.

Dont worry, I will make sure that my dog isnt mated while she's on heat unless I really want a litter. Things will most likely stop at "B" for me. To live in an ideal world as expect people to be more responsible, is almost impossible.

That's IF you wanted to spay / neuter... If you wanted to get a next generation and you just came home with the other half of your furkid. You'd scream and kill the founder.

Anyway, here's my post to your replies above.
krynzpeaches,
Give birth! Lose your body shape! Endless hours of nursing! Clingy is good!! Then you watch them grow up and take care of you back (applies to humans), or be taken care off by the same responsible owner (applies for pets) - I think it's great!!

Got such thing as chop chop = more handsome wan meh? This I really do not know but finding a body organ missing, die die I'm all against it! I'm refering to myself being positively positive in being the ideal responsible owner but I know accidents might happen thats why if you read on the other thread, I'm taking precaution with Moonie now.

Seems like you experienced with this whole process thingy. By the way, I know you're pro for Sugar Gliders, did your neuter / spay yours (a pair)?

---

Added on January 15, 2008, 11:49 pmOk, you just love to put up a good fight, eh? I like you... Hehehe... Let me answer this.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

Scenario 2 - we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption
- Stray is not my problem go to hell. Kidding. If I found a stray, I'd run it over and save the world from another 'problem'. Kidding. The serious thing I'd do is put it up for adoption. Before handing over to the new owner, I will speak to them and tell them the available options out there for them to spay / neuter their furkids.

Bottomline: I will educate people that there is such an option to neuter / spay their kids and not contribute to the problem at-hand but for myself, I wont do it. Hahaha... I think suddenly some of you guys going to flame me for being DOUBLE STANDARDS! Hahaha... Lol!!

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 15 2008, 11:50 PM

I reply for the sake of replying saje. Dont take it too seriously. Just do what you think is right for you. For my conscience, neuter / spay is really not for me. Maybe later, I know the risk will be higher, so still considering - maybe wear baby diaper whenever on heat, for life.

Yes, what people do in the background, we do not know but like I said, that is the sin for him to carry, not me. I know this talk about sin and all is subjective as most probably do not see how God will play a part in this. Call me selfish but I really cannot bring myself to put my dog on a chopping board.

I know 3 weeks of healing from operation sounds so much more tempting from 3 years of labour pain. If I cannot take care of it anymore and give it up. If the new owner want to pretend in front of me and background turn my dog into a puppy factory - nasib la for the dog. Best we can do is give it to someone we know and can visit often.

After so many people against my idea, I think MAYBE spaying / neutering might be the way to go before giving it out. But the dogs will never forgive me for giving them that one last pain before pushing them away. I dont think I will ever be able to forgive myself also.

I have extremely high sensors for guilt so that is why I am extremely against shedding blood.

Wah liao, I wake up only to find my post kena bang kuat kuat. You guys wait, I reply when I get to work later. Now rushing... Hahahaha...

Hello... where can compare like that? It's different la weiii... You give birth and you get shot in Afghanistan is different. So its also different than being cut.

I think saying nasib la is too cruel la. Sayang sure got la but then you already cannot take care of it and give it up. What you dont see, wont hurt you. Dont bring yourself to go see also. See more, pain more. The very fact that it's no longer in my arms kills me, not to mention whatever the new owner does to it.

Of course, Bible / Quran / Kamasutra dont say that but the line to determine good and bad is always there wan ma. I just feel cutting furkid up is in the bad side. Not backside ah!

Wah liao eh... Sure my furkid wont get lost unless it's stolen. Every time I bring them out, I walk ten minutes, I will check their leash is tight or not, intact or not. I will check where collar hook is properly fixed or not. Paranoia kind of thing... So far, I tried letting them roam my gf's house compound which is EXTREMELY big like 5 badminton court size and they know how to come back to me when I called. I think in public / outside, will be different.

Its not about the time and money la. I purposely lose my dog, you neuter for me. Then I pretend find back and save on the cost of the operation? I also understand your views. There is a man who sold me Moonie, he is a family friend. I went over his house to pick up Moonie which he brought from Seremban (so I dunno what is in Seremban) but this man, I saw his kennel, right next to his house. All sorts of dogs inside that compound which is supposedly TNB land but he fenced it, opened a small gate connecting to his house and has a kennel inside. From outside, cannot be seen wan because of the kind of entangling grass he put on the fence. I lived in the next neighbourhood for ~25 years and I've never knew that it was a kennel - so when you said never seen daylight, I think I can imagine the scenario. But used for breeding - can I say breeding is better than extinction? What if one day no more Westie or GR or Shih Tzu? Hehehehe... Just another point of view.

Wow, good idea huh... Give away the pup without giving the MKA cert. True true, no cert still sell like hotcake but mostly these are not for breeding and selling cause I think most likely they will still be parked as home owner, home pets as without MKA cert, they hold less value (monetary terms) in the mind of those money making zombies. Therefore, I would believe they would not waste so much time mating and breeding them since they have no cert. I believe even though it may not be the case but this step, helps, definitely!

If its me and I dont believe it's best, I'd still send a flying kick over to the founder. Of course before that, I'd also punch myself in the face for losing it. That is human carelessness that can be avoided if we are more careful.

The blood would still be in my hand... Hmmm... Good point of argument but I've never thought of it. I think I can a..c..c..e..p..t.. that. But I think I will take more blood onto my hands at that time if I see the new owner being irresponsible and it would be the owner's blood! Argghh!!! You're turning me into rampage-mode!!

Dont worry, I didnt take it as flaming. Like I said before, I saje reply for fun only. I want to see what kind of arguments I have to put up with! Haha... This makes the board alive! Just to clarify I am not the type to blame on God or others but I will just let them bear the sin themselves. However, from the way you put it, I think it does affect me as I didnt do my best before the handover.

You sure can put up a good argument, lady. I like you!

Wow weee... Another great point! I guess if you put it that way, it does sound a bit cruel to sell the pups for money. It's like you give birth and your husband sell it for profit. When we think about it, it does seems cruel actually.

I agree that a lot of things we do for them is not natural - such as those you listed but that does not cause them pain and also if we really let NATURE takes it course. I doubt my poor Westie will survive. At most, they'd first be run over by cars as soon as they step out of my house. So, let me put it this way, by not spaying / neutering them I feel that we are giving him that last bit of nature about themselves. Get what I mean?

You have the same argument point as Cimredopyh. It is partly our fault for not doing enough for them. However, what if we spay and neuter them and then the new owner realize "Awww.. this damn thing dont even have its genitals! What the hell am I keeping and feeding it for when it cant brings me money!" and he / she kills it and cook stew with its meat? If we think of it like that, wouldnt that be more cruel? Or maybe NOT kill it but rather kick it out of the house to survive on its own in the wild wild city? Hahahaha...

Anyway, there wont be much of a flaming here because we are all friendly people, just looking at things from some very different perspectives. Thanks for your feedback!!

My God! Just when I finish with one post, here I have to reply another! Lol!!! Ok, let's see what's written.

You know, with the way you reply, I cant tell which is your post and which is my quoted ones. Hahahaha... Are you trying to confuse me in this debate? Hehe!!

I really really think I have the time to take care of their offsprings later, despite the fast moving country. Even if I work in NY, Tokyo or Singapore, I would have time. I make time! I know its difficult sometimes and require a lot of discipline. Sometimes, I dont have the time, so my sister stand-in for me, sometimes my maid but rarely cause she is my grandma's personal helper so we only ask her if its really necessary.

Dont be drag down by the disappointment and sad stories. It can affect you badly but dont let it get to you else you will forever be upset about it. I am aware that not everyone is going to be like me - thats why this debate is my point of view only, not speaking for others.

This part, I really dont understand what you're writing. If you dont mind, you can share with us. If it's a personal matter, treat it as I never asked. "Me experiencing the whole ordeal is a personal matter that I don't think is appropriate to discuss it here don't you think? But do you think I would talk about it if I don't?"

Dont be humble about the sugar glider part. I do read and I can tell from what you've written there that you are good with them, damn good. Oh my, your sugar glider have a super-long name. Thank you for educating me about sugar gliders. We can neuter the male and your sugar glider is first in Malaysia - Malaysia Guiness Record Holder!! We cannot do that to the female because it's too risky.

If we take this into the debate, we look at it like a female sugar glider cannot be spayed. Would that not risk the chance of pregnancy if you no longer can take care of it and then it's given to a new owner? I mean, I know dogs can be easily spay / neuter. Sugar gliders can be neuter but not spayed (assuming it's too risky to even try, so we consider it's not do-able). But just because it's easily done on dogs, then we should do it to help with the overgrown size of mongrels and strays on the street? Can we really say that it is all because sugar gliders are caged pets?

This is my personal point of view on this debate. We, humans, would modify anything for our own convenience. From rocks to start fire, to sticks, to matches, lighter, and gas. Same goes for neuter / spay. If it's easily done for dogs, we do it to prevent them from being bred by puppy-millers, and contribute to the number of dogs put to sleep, run over, killed, badly treated. But just because its dangerous to do it to sugar gliders, it's OK to just neuter the male but would that not make the female still open to risk of contributing to the over-populated community of wild sugar gliders, etc?

Get my point? Counter me, I would really like to see what's in your mind so please share it with me on this.

Oh about the God part, I didnt mean to put this debate in his hands. I was just kidding about that part. I mean it make sense to me but maybe not to most of you so it's not a valid point in this argument. I was just saying it for the sake of saying it. Dont let it get to you. Its really difficult to see what you replied and what I wrote. So this is going to take some time.

Hang on.

You have the same argument point as the two before you. That the fact that it WAS my furkid before it was given away. You know, I think that if it is really our furkid, we should not give it up AT ALL. Let's not talk about the next generation because not everybody can take care of a sire + dam + a litter of 4. Even I might not be able to do it, but for as long as I live, I will keep Casper and Moonie with me, even if it means selling my PC and stop coming to Lowyat.net! Hahaha... Dont take it lightly because PC is my life and its important to me as anything else but for me to be willing to give it up, it must be really something. This shows that despite they are just DOGS, they are really important in my life. I will share with you my story later on why they are so bloody important and how did I turned so positively positive.

Please do not be offended by my post. I know it sounds as though I'm a stubborn mule but I am not. I just know damn well what I want and what I can do. It does not mean that all these talks and debate does not apply to me. Of course your views affect me and your passion to keep things going, deciding whats best for your furkid even though its different from what's on my mind earn yourself a great deal of respect from me.

Oh yes, I do have strong sense of guilt but I can also not see / look / know / acknowledge once it's out of my hands. That makes it sounds like I'm dangerous eh? My gf says I have double personality! One minute can be so kind, one minute can dont care at all. I dont know but its just the way I am.



This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 16 2008, 03:20 PM

Oh man, this is so much fun! This must be the longest word-per-post thread ever. Everyone like write karangan only!!

I know you are not promoting it to save the cost of the operation la. I know! I am just saying for example. Sorry if the example wasnt appropriate.

You people really can put up a good argument!! Just for your information, the impact you tried to make, works on me. I can see that poor dog is now semi-white due to mange.

About puppies sold without MKA cert, I believe that makes a difference as small as it may be. I mean there are people out there who specifically look for those with certification so that if they feed them, breed them and sell them, its worth something. I'm not so sure on the market price as I have not survey in a while but I think non-MKA certified dogs are cheaper by RM1,000 is it?

Yea, I also noticed unbelieving amount of ID10TS making money by breeding mixed breed. I mean, what the hell is wrong with these people? I cant believe there's even market for this... What they trying to do next? Breed a dog and cat? A lady and a horse to get a Centaur? Wow weee... we are moving onto the Land of Narnia.


Yes dear, splitting the answers would be great. I know we all got to work but it's so tempted to reply back here to see what others may write!! Woo hoo!!!

"A mother/parent can raise and take good care of 10 children, but it is not a guarantee that the 10 children will be able to do the same to her/them." <--- This is damn right!!

You mean after you give birth to a certain amount of children, would you wanna "ikat" (like spay / neuter) or you want to go on with birth control measures? Hmmm... humans would definitely go for "ikat" but then if its for me, if my wife wont want to, I wont force her. Since furkids cannot voice out saying "No, daddy, dont slice my balls!" I just cannot bring myself to JUST-DO-IT for them.

Iggy sounds like a name for lizards than to sugar gliders. But it's a nice name, only very long! Try having the elder in your family pronounce it! Hahahaha... I think your sugar glider will be very confused.

About the sugar glider example on the fact that we can neuter the male but not spay the female. I am talking about it being in the wild. If a male is neutered, the female cannot be spayed (too risky so we conclude as cannot), then that will somehow still contribute to the overpopulated of sugar gliders. Now I am no pro with sugar gliders. I had wanted them and the urge just kept coming back. My sister and gf is stopping me from getting a pair but I had really really want it. So occassionally I would go read up on them in the Sugar Glider thread.

You're the pro when it comes to sugar glider so its my privilege to be educated by you on some information you might share. I didnt know that female sugar gliders who has been paired with one male, takes a long and tedious process to be paired with another male. I believe what you're trying to tell me is that they are faithful to their other half?? Is it??

So neutering the male sugar glider will help with the baldness, turn yellowish and smell issue? Now that is a positive point which might be considered for you sugar gliders lover.

Oh, sugar gliders cannot survive here eh? OKOK... This is educating!! Are you married? How old are you and how does cat make your husband happier and calmer? Lastly, I am not stubborn and I dont have double personality!!

You are all against me isnt it? Hehehe... Anyway, good choice! I can see you take this seriously with the research and the possible questions popping up in your head. I am glad you have the courage to take that step. Good for you.

---

Added on January 16, 2008, 4:12 pmOK, after seriously considering what mrkenjiro wrote, I think maybe spaying and neutering can be a positive thing for our pets health concern.

Now a new question for everyone in here... I want to breed my dog but dont know when but it's not now, possibly. I cannot decide how many litter I want.

Since there so many things that is undecided now, I will not spay / neuter them. Will it be alright later if I suddenly decide to? I know the risk of operation will be there as it gets older.

Since I put up a good fight on my beliefs on saying TAKNAK to spaying / neutering. I hope you guys can put up a equally good fight to guide me down the right path.

Now this aint about double personality or double standards. This is just something that's been bothering me a while. It's not like I can neuter them now and put it back later...

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 16 2008, 04:31 PM

My God, look at the scroll bar for this window. Because we wrote so much, now the page looks so long!!

Anyway, Yang, I admit I dont know any good Westie breeder out there. However, I think Junnie87 is one? I've seen her sell Westie a couple of times now.

Hahaha... I cant help it if that's the impression I gave out but indeed I was trying to escape in that direction. However, dont take my post seriously. I got tons of replies from others on how we play a part and if we dont do them, the blood is also in our hands. Hahaha... Just some point of argument with the rest, for fun. You should read them, it's nice to watch us bicker once in a while!

Whatever she is, I just know she has Westies for sale and I also believe she is very ethical with her work.

Which pet shop are you talking about, zeist? She had I think 4 puppies for sale last month or so.

Did she sell them to PEt Family? There's one malay or sabahan guy in PEt Family, Bkt Tinggi who is OK and quite helpful. Very nice guy. WHen I bought dog food, he even helped me carry to the car despite the fact that I'm much bigger than he is.

Just want to check with you guys how many of you have renewed the dog license from your town council?

I see 2008 got new ruling. The MPK (I'm from Klang), wants these items are License Application Requirement:
1. Photocopy of owner's I.C.
2. Photo of dog(s)
3. Photo of house external (how big is your house determine how many dogs you can keep.)
4. Photocopy of vaccination card
5. Application form.

I was told that if your house is bigger that 3,000 square feet only you're allowed to keep more than one dog, else one is the max.

While we were at it at the vet clinic today, I heard some other stories as well. Scary stories.

There are basically two parties catching dogs these days. First one is the local council. Once they catches your dog, they will put it in the dogpound and you can retrieve it back within 24hrs. The second one is Indonesians who catches your dog to sell for a high-price or kill it IMMEDIATELY and claim the bounty from our local council.

Then one lady who was there with us said that the week before Christmas, she went to a restaurant to eat. She saw a girl walking a Yorkshire / Silky Terrier and an Indonesian came up to her, saw her dog without MPK tag and took it away immediately. There was a squabble and argument but it ended with the Indonesian taking the dog and the young girl was helpless. They WOULD take immediately, dont give a damn because they know there's high price for that dog.

So without a master and leash on our dogs, when we bring them out, they can be subjected to being taken away from us on the spot, is it? What's the ruling about these? Anyone who knows more, can clarify and educate us on this system?

Appreciate if anyone can share.