In part i think the cats in the area are familiar with her as she puts food and water out for them daily. I know she uses a cat carrier to transport them but how exactly she catches them i do not know.

Strays are the direct result of irresponsible pet owners, in an ideal world everyone would be responsible, but we all know how that works out in reality >.>.
Every single one of those strays running the streets is because somewhere down the line a pet owner was irresponsible in some way or another

PS: Thanks Pennywise for sticking to your guns in a mature way, you can be sure people who do not see neutering/spaying as cruel will take what you have to say into serious consideration even though they may not agree with you

Dont worry about that catching-the-cat part because I'm just interested to know how a lady does it since cats are usually so agile. It's amazing, her skills and love for those pets.

Strays are a direct result - I cannot argue with that. A give birth to B which in turn give birth to C and D and E and C will probably give birth to C1, C2, C3,... so on.

I know what you mean and its hard to be idealistic. People here possibly think I'm just ignorant. I'm not so much of a pet person until New Year 2007 when I got Casper.

Dont worry, I will make sure that my dog isnt mated while she's on heat unless I really want a litter. Things will most likely stop at "B" for me. To live in an ideal world as expect people to be more responsible, is almost impossible.

Yes, it is for the convenience of mankind who loves their pet and knows their responsibility to keep one properly and safely until their end of time instead of a few dozens and not knowing what to do with it.

And also like what Cimredopyh has said too...





The pain of giving birth, the agony of losing your body shape, the endless hours of nursing, the non-stop clingy off spring by your side could be washed away by watching the joy of life?

Ekkkkk...

Not less handsome at all but becomes more handsome I must say (this applies to some pets only I think )

I prefer, to use I, haha, easier methodology...

Which positively-positive you are referring too?



The surgery is very quick. Depending on the type of pet, it's more or less than half an hour.

Depending of the type of pet too, it will normally fully heal within a week.

There should be no infection if the area is not disturbed heavily or caused the stitch to re-opened what-so-ever.



Couldn't agree more


KP

Surgery depends on animals. Both my male cats were neutered very young and the procedure takes about 4 hours. Then it's all ready to go home. But male dogs neutering are a big complicated and more care is needed. Same goes with female dogs. So far I don't have any female cats to comment about.

To heal depending on the care taken by the owner to the animal. Some within a week some months due to infections

Pennywise was outnumbered as he couldn't express it well IMHO


Like said, if you neutered the male dog from young when he doesn't know what a female on heat means, it wouldn't be torturing. Unless it neutering a male dog who is experienced sex before.

It's like a 3 years old kid who doesn't know what sex is all about (provided he is not exposed to those information). Neutering males would like stop all these and make him forever as innocent as a 3 year old kid

well.. for the least I placed my vote as No Comment as I feel there's both side of the story.

But neutering and spraying is not as cruel as debarking and declawing

Yup, true

Okay, I would say it is up to the individual IF, only IF the individual is a responsible owner...

My male cat is due to be neutered end of the month.

Then all the pets I have is neutered


KP

How can 'neutering' a human reduce the risk of AIDS or STD? Vasectomy (for human) doesn't really lower a man's sexual desire. It's just that the man's sterile and can't impregnate a female after undergoing it. So, how does that contribute to 'lesser crime'?

Besides, it's your choice not to spay/neuter your pets, so don't go around pointing fingers at people with statements like : "Dun act like u r the only one flowing with warm blooded ok?"

What you do to your pet's offsprings are entirely up to you. Personally, I do not want to see my furkids' puppies being used by people to make money (by using them as breeding machines) or worse still, being abused by people who adopts them.

Animals are not the same as humans. They don't use sex for 'recreation'. If I'm reborn as a dog in my next life, I wouldn't know the difference whether my owner spayed me or not. Both of my furkids are spayed and both are perfectly healthy - I don't see any difference in their behaviour or them acting weird.


Are you talking about Dr.Ghosh? Funny that you say he reacted that way. I was talking to him last time and he encouraged me to spay my Chelsea if I'm not going to breed her. He explained in detail of the consequences of spaying and not spaying our pet - and I admit I asked him alot of the spay/neuter myth and he took the time to explain everything to me one by one. He never once said that 'if you love your pet, don't spay/neuter them'

BTW, I'm curious as to who that Indian vet that you're talking about. Care to introduce him?

I actually adopted a stray female shih tzu about a year ago and without my knowledge she was in heat when I took her in. I have another 2 male dogs at home. After 2 months, 6 puppies were born, gave away 1 to a friend and kept all 5 pups with me till now. You know what, before you know it, she was on heat again after 6 months. So I asked myself, "Should I risk her in having another litter of puppies again or resort to spaying to stop the breeding permanently?" Obviously, I picked the latter. Yea, it may sound a lil cruel but I guess sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind. 2 days after the surgery, she runs and plays like a young puppy again and I'm so proud of her.

This post has been edited by rancid: Jan 15 2008, 12:59 PM

A stray shih tzu? Well, that should tell that to qiqio as she has never seen a stray a.k.a. unwanted shih tzu before.

If the we are keeping the pets ourselves and are responsible owner, I guess we do have the option whether we want to spay/ neuter or keep them intact.

One point to ponder however, just say in the senario like:
1) when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
2) we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption

Will you spay/ neuter the pets then? Do you still think that is is cruel and we should let mother nature take its course?

There is a possibilty that you may not find a good reponsible owner to take care of them. The owner might just let them be and unwanted litter happens. The new owner may just simply pass to other people, throw the puppies away and they become strays.

Worse still, there are some unscrupulous people who will lie to adopt your pet and then resell it to make money / treat it like a breeding machine. These cases really happens as we have read about them in other forum.

What will you do?

Well..I have to applaud Junnie in the adoption of the chow chow she posted before the owner hands over the chow chow, the new owner would have to pay for spaying. Too bad it has already landed in a family already when we called to confirm

In case 1, if we love our pet and wish for the best for them, I think it is better to have them spayed/neutered before giving them to a new home. It's true, we might not know what will happen if the new owner is not very responsible, or is some con man using your pet as a breeding machine. *shivers* I wouldn't want that to happen to my babies even if they are given away to people...

In case 2, I think it's best to spay/neuter the stray that you found (like the kind lady story ) so that the stray cycle could stop some where... But if it's a lost pet you found... Then that I'm not sure...


KP

That's a good thing! (i mean about the requirement of spaying, not the latter - sorry you didn't get to adopt the chowchow )

Recently we saw a lot of pets being put out for adoption (in other forum as well), and when the advice were given to the owner to spay/neuter their pets first before passing it to the potential adoptee, the owner refuse to do so by giving reason like - "i love my pet, I am already depressed since i am giving it out for adoption, i don't want them to suffer further, spaying is such a cruel thing to do......"

The advice is actually given by the people were concerned that the beloved pet might fall into wrong hands (backyard breeder) and suffer for the rest of their life (being cage 24 hr and becoming a nonstop breeding machine) if they were to remain intact. As least when it is spay / neuter, you have already filter out these unscrupulous people from the adoptee list. Doesn't that help to protect your pet?

KP,

on the lost pet. It is a debatable issue i guess.
I mean if you pet is lost and when found it back, it has been spayed / neutered, will you get angry?
Some will. To me, I think I would be just grateful that I found back my furkids first, rather not finding it back and keep imaging it fall into the hands of the backyard breeder and suffer for the rest of its life.

I know I wouldn't be angry too, atleast you found your furkid safe and sound, and it being spayed/neuter already save you the cost to do so right?


KP

That's IF you wanted to spay / neuter... If you wanted to get a next generation and you just came home with the other half of your furkid. You'd scream and kill the founder.

Anyway, here's my post to your replies above.
krynzpeaches,
Give birth! Lose your body shape! Endless hours of nursing! Clingy is good!! Then you watch them grow up and take care of you back (applies to humans), or be taken care off by the same responsible owner (applies for pets) - I think it's great!!

Got such thing as chop chop = more handsome wan meh? This I really do not know but finding a body organ missing, die die I'm all against it! I'm refering to myself being positively positive in being the ideal responsible owner but I know accidents might happen thats why if you read on the other thread, I'm taking precaution with Moonie now.

Seems like you experienced with this whole process thingy. By the way, I know you're pro for Sugar Gliders, did your neuter / spay yours (a pair)?

---

Added on January 15, 2008, 11:49 pmOk, you just love to put up a good fight, eh? I like you... Hehehe... Let me answer this.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

Scenario 2 - we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption
- Stray is not my problem go to hell. Kidding. If I found a stray, I'd run it over and save the world from another 'problem'. Kidding. The serious thing I'd do is put it up for adoption. Before handing over to the new owner, I will speak to them and tell them the available options out there for them to spay / neuter their furkids.

Bottomline: I will educate people that there is such an option to neuter / spay their kids and not contribute to the problem at-hand but for myself, I wont do it. Hahaha... I think suddenly some of you guys going to flame me for being DOUBLE STANDARDS! Hahaha... Lol!!

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 15 2008, 11:50 PM

your answer really

Anyway in Scenario 1,
Even if you give it up for adoption, how sure are you that the people you are giving is good or bad? Take example you have a very expensive MKA cert female shit tzu and something along the way happened that you have no choice to give it up. You would look for responsible owners right? But anybody can act they love dogs etc but which in fact in the background they have other intention in mind which is breeding.

Would you consider it to be cruel that they start breeding her non-stop just to get money out of it? Means every possible heat cycle she would be "raped" by a male dog to get offspring for sale. Means it's going to wear out her womb in say 3 years?

Or

Would you consider it to be cruel to suffer a one time operation which only last for weeks to heal and happy be someone's pet?

Your choice, 3 weeks of healing from operation or 3 years of labour pain?

Spaying for adoption is a must I'd say.

Also another applaud for junnie too that apart of the new owner bearing the cost of spaying or neutering, the new family will be given a probation of one month from the old owner who will check whether the dog is suitable with the new family or not. (cough, was put in the waiting line in case something happens to the new family, that's why i know)

I reply for the sake of replying saje. Dont take it too seriously. Just do what you think is right for you. For my conscience, neuter / spay is really not for me. Maybe later, I know the risk will be higher, so still considering - maybe wear baby diaper whenever on heat, for life.

Yes, what people do in the background, we do not know but like I said, that is the sin for him to carry, not me. I know this talk about sin and all is subjective as most probably do not see how God will play a part in this. Call me selfish but I really cannot bring myself to put my dog on a chopping board.

I know 3 weeks of healing from operation sounds so much more tempting from 3 years of labour pain. If I cannot take care of it anymore and give it up. If the new owner want to pretend in front of me and background turn my dog into a puppy factory - nasib la for the dog. Best we can do is give it to someone we know and can visit often.

After so many people against my idea, I think MAYBE spaying / neutering might be the way to go before giving it out. But the dogs will never forgive me for giving them that one last pain before pushing them away. I dont think I will ever be able to forgive myself also.

I have extremely high sensors for guilt so that is why I am extremely against shedding blood.

beranak pon shedding of blood gak

nasib la that dog? haih..tak sakit hati ke? dah tak sayang ke?

sin and God? Which part of the Bible/ Quran/ buddhist sutra/ hinduism sez so?

Well, I hope if your furkids is lost, it is not found by me then .......jk

I would say spaying / neutering is advisable if the founder really cannot locate the owner (after a lapse of time and effort spend) and he/she cannot keep the dog and have no choice but to put it out for adoption. At that point of time, I think the probability of ever finding the owner is slim and by not spaying / neutering it, it would just expose the lost dog to the risk of misuse. Imaging, once the furkids got into the hand of the puppy miller, do you think you will ever see them again? They might not even see daylight again - being stuck in a dark cramp cage and only be used for breeding.

I respect your stand on senario 1, I do hope if the case really happen, you will thoroughly screen your potential adoptee before handing your westie over to them.

Another point to add:
Some people think that by not handling over their pet MKA cert, it will discourage the people from breeding their furkids, hence there is no need to spay / neuter. Well, that's not the case. If you see the selling thread nowadays, a lot of puppy without MKA cert is sold and they are snapped up like hotcakes. Hence, unscrupulous breeder don't need the cert at all since the puppy can be easily sold without the MKA certs. They can even market mix breed puppy that are born from simply mixing different breeds together.

You lost your pet, so pretty much it found itself living the life of a stray ( a purebreed with a collar and no way of tracing to any owner is a stray ) then by some amazing luck you find it in in the hands of someone who cares enough to spend money to do something they believe was best for an animal that isnt even theirs, even if you had intended to breed i doubt you would scream and yell to find a much loved pet in the hands of someone like that.
The only person who would scream and yell in such a situation, in my opinion, does not care for that pet as a companion, Thats someone who just cares about breeding
for anyone else the joy of finding them again would eclipse the disapointment of being unable to breed

No matter how i look at it if you give your pet to someone who is irresponsible or someone who takes advantage of your pets ability to reproduce, the 'blood' is still on your hands.

You knew there was a chance it could happen. You were the one who put them in that situation. You made the choices for your pet that resulted in that situation.
If you had done everything you could and still something bad happens, THEN only you can say that it was fate
Accidents happen, priorities and situations can change.
You cant controll or predict what happens in the hands of the new owner so you should do everything you can to make sure your pet stands the best chance at a happy, healthy rest of his/her life

If you didnt do something but knew maybe you should have, when something bad happens, sorry but you are the guilty one. Too easy to blame everything on God.


Not a flame, just my 2c. If i sound like im hot under the collar its because this was written from the heart.

Some of you guys argue that spaying/neutering your pets is a human act and that it's not natural.

Breeding your pet and selling of their puppies/kittens/etc <-- Did it cross your mind that the very act of breeding your pet for profit is also a 'human act' rather than letting nature take its course?

Alot of things that we do for our pets are 'not' natural. We groom them, we cut their nails, we bathe them with flowery scented shampoo, feed them with nutritious kibbles - all these are 'not' natural. No?

If sending our pets to be spay/neutered is considered as sin, then we are also potentially committing sin by handing over our pet's pups/kittens to people who might torture/abuse them. It's really easy to blame fate/destiny or God but it's not 'easy' to blame oneself.

One cannot say, "it's their luck/fate/destiny" if the poor pups/kittens ended up with abusive family who chain/cage them 24/7. These can be prevented by NOT breeding your pet (you can opt to not spay/neuter) or let 'accidents' happen, make more effort and check the background of the people who wants to adopt the little darlings and etc etc.

It's unfair to the pups/kittens if we say it's their luck to end up with bad families. I usually don't go to pet shops because it's heart breaking to see puppies looking at you through the pen or cage. This, my friends, is the result of breeding for profit or 'accidents'.

Sure, some of you guys can say that you can't keep so many dogs/cats in the house after your pet gave birth, hence the selling/adoption of the pups/kittens that follow. Alot of first time owners look at these pups/kittens and see them as 'aaaawww so cute!' - alot of them are NOT prepared when their cute fluffy pup/kitten grows into adulthood.

I've seen many posters here that asks for advice when getting their first dog, with requests like : I want a small friendly dog. I want a cute cute dog. Dog that don't shed much, dog that don't bark much, dog that is easy to control, etc etc. What these people don't realise is that each dog is an individual - their temperament differs, and sometimes dogs that are supposed to shed a little might end up shedding alot.

Then those who breed puppies for sale will recommend their pups to them. Taken in by the cuteness, the new owner buys the pup. A year or so later, they find that they can't control the dog and gives it up for adoption or just chuck the dog away in some park. The dog breeds, and puppies are born and the cycle continues.

Personally, I would rather have my pets spayed/neutered than to give their puppies away to strangers. I do not want to worry if the foster family is treating them right or not.

This is just my 2 cents, so flame-throwers, don't flame over here ok? I apologise in advance if I've accidentally stepped on anyone's toes and paws.