Wah liao, I wake up only to find my post kena bang kuat kuat. You guys wait, I reply when I get to work later. Now rushing... Hahahaha...

Hahaha healthy debate ma.

---

Added on January 16, 2008, 8:55 amHahahaha missed your post earlier. Here's my reply :

Both Abby and Chelsea's been spayed and the surgery took, roughly, between 2-3 hours (if I'm not mistaken). In Abby's case, she's up and walking on the same day itself and didn't seem to be bothered by the stitches.

Chelsea, being the to-fu dog that she is, took about a day to start walking up and down. Same as Abby, she still have appetite to eat and beg for treats. Only thing is that we prevent them from getting too playful, just in case the stitches give way.

If I have both females and males, I'll spay and neuter both. My brother's GR's been neutered and I honestly don't see any difference in his temperament. He's still goofy, clumsy and very mischievious.

This post has been edited by chibi_tenko: Jan 16 2008, 08:55 AM

With our fast moving generation/country, do you really-really think your off springs will take care of you as much as you have for them?

I've seen too much disappointment and sad stories to let that happen again.

Ohh, sooo you're the "positively-positive as an ideal responsible owner?" Not everyone is like YOU and you have to remember that.

Me experiencing the whole ordeal is a personal matter that I don't think is appropriate to discuss it here don't you think? But do you think I would talk about it if I don't?

I'm not a super pro about Sugar Gliders, but at this moment, I know everything I should and still learning about it.

YES, my beloved Igantius Sorvo Corromandel the Male Sugar Glider is NEUTERED. And he is the first Sugar Glider neutered by procedure in Malaysia (the other one was naturally and by accident )

As far as spaying for female gliders, there no such procedure unless necessary because of the presence of their "pouch". It is an extremely difficult and almost fatal procedure to delve into their pouch just to spay female gliders, so unless they have a womb infection, most vets would not recommend it (even in the USA).

-----

Wahhh, sounds so easy for you putting everything in the hands of GOD and let the lucky future owner to bear their own sins!

When you say, "if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it" does that mean if one is destined to have a horrible life, one should do nothing, sit on their a** and wait for the terrible to come???

One does not need to be religious to know that God makes plan for everything, but that does not mean we don't have to work things out.

I do not want to touch on this issue pulak, but don't go putting things lightly in Gods hand...

And "I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid..." Ermmm, wasn't the furkid yours before? As far as the sin part, that would be the new owner's responsibility, but if your prev furkid turned out to have a bad life in the hands of the owner, wouldn't you feel that stab of pain too? Or you just don't care anymore because the furkid "was" yours?

Never mind, I guess all these talks and discussion does not apply to you at all cuz you know sooo much that you are a responsible owner.



You don't even know what's in their mind to say that they won't forgive you for starters. Animal or not, in time they know things were done for the best and they don't keep vengeance...

If you are extremely high in sensor for guilt, I wonder how can you not feel guilty for allowing the things that you could've prevent to happen... (per say in the case above lah...)



I have to agree with most of the things you say...

All these heated discussion is just to make people see and understand that we should be responsible for the well-being of all animals not just our pets because we are on the top of the hierarchy and we must look out for the others.

Don't just think or feel that yourself is responsible enough, but think of those many-many unfortunates out there that came about because of our mankind's doing too.

I don't know, I think I've seen too much of those already that it breaks my heart from time to time...

I really hope that other forumers (besides all those debating here) actually do come in and read all this and take a piece of something useful with them...

*sighhh*


KP

Hello... where can compare like that? It's different la weiii... You give birth and you get shot in Afghanistan is different. So its also different than being cut.

I think saying nasib la is too cruel la. Sayang sure got la but then you already cannot take care of it and give it up. What you dont see, wont hurt you. Dont bring yourself to go see also. See more, pain more. The very fact that it's no longer in my arms kills me, not to mention whatever the new owner does to it.

Of course, Bible / Quran / Kamasutra dont say that but the line to determine good and bad is always there wan ma. I just feel cutting furkid up is in the bad side. Not backside ah!

Wah liao eh... Sure my furkid wont get lost unless it's stolen. Every time I bring them out, I walk ten minutes, I will check their leash is tight or not, intact or not. I will check where collar hook is properly fixed or not. Paranoia kind of thing... So far, I tried letting them roam my gf's house compound which is EXTREMELY big like 5 badminton court size and they know how to come back to me when I called. I think in public / outside, will be different.

Its not about the time and money la. I purposely lose my dog, you neuter for me. Then I pretend find back and save on the cost of the operation? I also understand your views. There is a man who sold me Moonie, he is a family friend. I went over his house to pick up Moonie which he brought from Seremban (so I dunno what is in Seremban) but this man, I saw his kennel, right next to his house. All sorts of dogs inside that compound which is supposedly TNB land but he fenced it, opened a small gate connecting to his house and has a kennel inside. From outside, cannot be seen wan because of the kind of entangling grass he put on the fence. I lived in the next neighbourhood for ~25 years and I've never knew that it was a kennel - so when you said never seen daylight, I think I can imagine the scenario. But used for breeding - can I say breeding is better than extinction? What if one day no more Westie or GR or Shih Tzu? Hehehehe... Just another point of view.

Wow, good idea huh... Give away the pup without giving the MKA cert. True true, no cert still sell like hotcake but mostly these are not for breeding and selling cause I think most likely they will still be parked as home owner, home pets as without MKA cert, they hold less value (monetary terms) in the mind of those money making zombies. Therefore, I would believe they would not waste so much time mating and breeding them since they have no cert. I believe even though it may not be the case but this step, helps, definitely!

If its me and I dont believe it's best, I'd still send a flying kick over to the founder. Of course before that, I'd also punch myself in the face for losing it. That is human carelessness that can be avoided if we are more careful.

The blood would still be in my hand... Hmmm... Good point of argument but I've never thought of it. I think I can a..c..c..e..p..t.. that. But I think I will take more blood onto my hands at that time if I see the new owner being irresponsible and it would be the owner's blood! Argghh!!! You're turning me into rampage-mode!!

Dont worry, I didnt take it as flaming. Like I said before, I saje reply for fun only. I want to see what kind of arguments I have to put up with! Haha... This makes the board alive! Just to clarify I am not the type to blame on God or others but I will just let them bear the sin themselves. However, from the way you put it, I think it does affect me as I didnt do my best before the handover.

You sure can put up a good argument, lady. I like you!

Wow weee... Another great point! I guess if you put it that way, it does sound a bit cruel to sell the pups for money. It's like you give birth and your husband sell it for profit. When we think about it, it does seems cruel actually.

I agree that a lot of things we do for them is not natural - such as those you listed but that does not cause them pain and also if we really let NATURE takes it course. I doubt my poor Westie will survive. At most, they'd first be run over by cars as soon as they step out of my house. So, let me put it this way, by not spaying / neutering them I feel that we are giving him that last bit of nature about themselves. Get what I mean?

You have the same argument point as Cimredopyh. It is partly our fault for not doing enough for them. However, what if we spay and neuter them and then the new owner realize "Awww.. this damn thing dont even have its genitals! What the hell am I keeping and feeding it for when it cant brings me money!" and he / she kills it and cook stew with its meat? If we think of it like that, wouldnt that be more cruel? Or maybe NOT kill it but rather kick it out of the house to survive on its own in the wild wild city? Hahahaha...

Anyway, there wont be much of a flaming here because we are all friendly people, just looking at things from some very different perspectives. Thanks for your feedback!!

Hahahaha I understood what you meant bout letting them have what remaining 'natural' thing that they have. You see Pennywise - it's fine if the dog/cat have a responsible owner. Sadly, there's also a lot of irresponsible owners out there. Some people will complain whenever a female dog's in heat and 'mess up' the place. I find it really odd when people make their furkids wear dog pampers when its on heat.

As for not having genitals - Mana ada leh, spaying/neutering is not removal of genitals. The following sentence that follow about why keep and feed the pet if it brings the owner no money - these are not owners, they are breeders. These people are only concerned bout the money that the dog will bring to them, not because they love the dog.

Besides, if people adopts/buys a dog and discover that it's spayed/neutered, they can return the dog. As for killing the dog and cooking it for food because of its lack of reproductive ability, waah, your imagination really geng.

My God! Just when I finish with one post, here I have to reply another! Lol!!! Ok, let's see what's written.

You know, with the way you reply, I cant tell which is your post and which is my quoted ones. Hahahaha... Are you trying to confuse me in this debate? Hehe!!

I really really think I have the time to take care of their offsprings later, despite the fast moving country. Even if I work in NY, Tokyo or Singapore, I would have time. I make time! I know its difficult sometimes and require a lot of discipline. Sometimes, I dont have the time, so my sister stand-in for me, sometimes my maid but rarely cause she is my grandma's personal helper so we only ask her if its really necessary.

Dont be drag down by the disappointment and sad stories. It can affect you badly but dont let it get to you else you will forever be upset about it. I am aware that not everyone is going to be like me - thats why this debate is my point of view only, not speaking for others.

This part, I really dont understand what you're writing. If you dont mind, you can share with us. If it's a personal matter, treat it as I never asked. "Me experiencing the whole ordeal is a personal matter that I don't think is appropriate to discuss it here don't you think? But do you think I would talk about it if I don't?"

Dont be humble about the sugar glider part. I do read and I can tell from what you've written there that you are good with them, damn good. Oh my, your sugar glider have a super-long name. Thank you for educating me about sugar gliders. We can neuter the male and your sugar glider is first in Malaysia - Malaysia Guiness Record Holder!! We cannot do that to the female because it's too risky.

If we take this into the debate, we look at it like a female sugar glider cannot be spayed. Would that not risk the chance of pregnancy if you no longer can take care of it and then it's given to a new owner? I mean, I know dogs can be easily spay / neuter. Sugar gliders can be neuter but not spayed (assuming it's too risky to even try, so we consider it's not do-able). But just because it's easily done on dogs, then we should do it to help with the overgrown size of mongrels and strays on the street? Can we really say that it is all because sugar gliders are caged pets?

This is my personal point of view on this debate. We, humans, would modify anything for our own convenience. From rocks to start fire, to sticks, to matches, lighter, and gas. Same goes for neuter / spay. If it's easily done for dogs, we do it to prevent them from being bred by puppy-millers, and contribute to the number of dogs put to sleep, run over, killed, badly treated. But just because its dangerous to do it to sugar gliders, it's OK to just neuter the male but would that not make the female still open to risk of contributing to the over-populated community of wild sugar gliders, etc?

Get my point? Counter me, I would really like to see what's in your mind so please share it with me on this.

Oh about the God part, I didnt mean to put this debate in his hands. I was just kidding about that part. I mean it make sense to me but maybe not to most of you so it's not a valid point in this argument. I was just saying it for the sake of saying it. Dont let it get to you. Its really difficult to see what you replied and what I wrote. So this is going to take some time.

Hang on.

You have the same argument point as the two before you. That the fact that it WAS my furkid before it was given away. You know, I think that if it is really our furkid, we should not give it up AT ALL. Let's not talk about the next generation because not everybody can take care of a sire + dam + a litter of 4. Even I might not be able to do it, but for as long as I live, I will keep Casper and Moonie with me, even if it means selling my PC and stop coming to Lowyat.net! Hahaha... Dont take it lightly because PC is my life and its important to me as anything else but for me to be willing to give it up, it must be really something. This shows that despite they are just DOGS, they are really important in my life. I will share with you my story later on why they are so bloody important and how did I turned so positively positive.

Please do not be offended by my post. I know it sounds as though I'm a stubborn mule but I am not. I just know damn well what I want and what I can do. It does not mean that all these talks and debate does not apply to me. Of course your views affect me and your passion to keep things going, deciding whats best for your furkid even though its different from what's on my mind earn yourself a great deal of respect from me.

Oh yes, I do have strong sense of guilt but I can also not see / look / know / acknowledge once it's out of my hands. That makes it sounds like I'm dangerous eh? My gf says I have double personality! One minute can be so kind, one minute can dont care at all. I dont know but its just the way I am.



This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 16 2008, 03:20 PM

You misunderstand my point.

Firstly, I am not suggesting that to save the cost of operation, you purposely lose your dog and then pretend to find it back once it is done.
If you can find your dog that fast, I don't think it will be spayed / neutered yet. You don't just found a lost dog and bring it immediately for spaying / neutering operation right? You will try to look for its owner, ask around, paste flyers, etc. (unless those people who has the intention to keep the lost dogs for themselves but that's another story) That's because as a dog lover and owner, you will understand the other owner pain of losing their beloved furkids. However, sometimes we are unable to find back the owner no matter how hard we tried or we found out that the furkids have been abandoned by their own owner. Then the next best thing is to find it a new good home. To ensure the furkids do not fall into hands of unscrupulous people, the best solution is to spay / neuter it. If the new potential adoptee actually refused to adopt just because it is spayed / neutered, do you he/she actually truly care for the dog? Think again.

I also do not agree with the statement bold above.
let me show you some pictures of puppy miller dog condition:



The photos are taken from this website : <<ban puppy mills>>.
I post some pictures here just to make an impact. There are more photos in the above website if you are interested. Now, do you still think life is better there?

Secondly, please don't take the "give away my purebreed dog without its MKA cert" as a good idea.
I have personally seen non MKA cert puppies being sold at a high prices at pet shops, >RM1K per puppy and they are not rare breeds. Some are even mix breed. In fact, dunno why recently got trend of selling mix breed puppies for as high as RM800. Some are so mixed I don't even know what breed they are and they look so weird. At the current economic condition ( recession and price hike), this still look desirable / profitable to many. Besides this, I would also say that "What if one day no more Westie or GR or Shih Tzu?" will be more likely from too many cross mixing of breed rather than nobody is breeding them until we can't even differentiate what dog is that ....

OMG, I got work to do...

Anyway, if I split the answers would it be better?



I was referring to the off springs (or your kids in this case) taking care of you, not the other way round.

A mother/parent can raise and take good care of 10 children, but it is not a guarantee that the 10 children will be able to do the same to her/them.

That is why I see that sometimes the pain of giving birth and losing a few percentage of your life is not that worthy...



What I mean is should I be discussing how responsible I am in taking the proper birth control measures too? Or how I would consider under going the proper surgery once I have enough of my own kids?



Thank you, but learning is a continuous process and I still consider myself learning a lot about them.

He's Iggy for short

Yes, not being able to spay a female glider does risk the chance for it to get pregnant if being placed with an active male in the future... BUT, the process of introducing successfully the previously paired female is a longer and tedious process.

Anyway, that is why I DO encourage suggie owners who are real in keeping them for long term to Neuter the males too... And why I intend to keep my suggies for as long as they live...

True enough, because gliders are caged pets unlike dogs/cats that can be left as strays on the streets.

Female gliders also do not go on heat and create noises or mess like dogs and cats do. But male gliders will mark and musk a lot if not neutered. And for those who does not understand this process, will complain and give up the male simply because they bald, turn yellowish and smell.

We don't have gliders in our wild. Gliders that are released in our wild is most likely not to survive at all to even create a wild glider population.

But, there's already too much, too many money making people breeding gliders unethically without thinking of the consequences and the future of the long-life spanned creatures, which leads me to encourage glider neutering.

If you have read, you may have came across us trying to solve this problem and fighting for the greater good of our poorly treated suggie families in the pet shops.



YES, for responsible owner/people, if you have furkid, you shouldn't give it away at all but must find all ways and means to keep them and make them happy.

I know I won't.

Who ever denies the goodness that a pet can bring? I understand your story and am not even surprised by it, because a good pet does make people come together.

I love cats, but am terribly allergic to them plus with suggies to care, I don't have time for one. But, I decided to give in and keep one when I saw how it makes my husband happy and actually more calmer

But I will neuter my cat because I know it will not change his personality, only for his well-being and a measure to prevent him from pissing on my walls.

In your last word "Enough reason to cover why I would not put them to spay / neuter."makes it sound like spaying/neutering is a death sentence...

And for the record, I think you are as stubborn as mule and you have double personality! Haha


KP

*oiii, I gotta work lar...*

This post has been edited by krynzpeaches: Jan 16 2008, 02:57 PM

Hi guys,

I read this topic with much interest because I own a 8 months old female golden retriever.
For weeks I am struggling within myself whether to spay my dog or not.

I got tonnes of questions running in my mind during these period such as:

Would I breed my dog?
I want to because I like to see her babies... but then again, for a person without any experience in breeding, this is not an easy task. The mother might suffer complication during delivery. And especially large breed, the offspring have a big chance to get Hip Dyspxia which a risk I am not willing to take it.

So, if I do not want to breed it, can't I just leave her as she is... heat comes and go. I just need to make sure no males are around(which should be quite easy since I only have one dog and my house are quite well walled). That stopped me from spaying her. But a few days later another question popped into my mind. Is there any long term effect on the dog if I did not mate her when she is in heat.
So then I did some research and found out that the pulp (equivalent to the human's discharge') tend to stay inside the uterus which can contribute to uterus cancer and all other kinds of tumor(Golden and Lab are not called Tumor Dog for no reason)


Spaying is about removing the productive organ from the body. And because of that the hormon discharge will be different --> this has effect on the temperant but most ppl will tell you that their dog have better temperant after spaying so I guess that is a good thing.

My dog due to have her first heat soon... i guess since she is already 8 months old. Prior to reading about spaying, I have never ever wanted to spay her because of obvious reason - why the surgery/pain when everything is so fine with her? But reading research and report on potential cancer especially for female dog changed my mind. I am doing this as a PREVENTIVE measure. I am not sure if she will get cancer in the future but it is a risk I am not willing to take. I rather see her pain now for a week than seeing her in pain for months (touch wood) in the future...

I love her and that is why I am spaying her...

Personally I will avoid spaying or neutering my pet if I can help it... my dog is fully functional

I wan't my dog to be just the way he's born... and it's also the reason why I prefer males over females... periods can be messy and pregnancies can really complicate matters.

Oh man, this is so much fun! This must be the longest word-per-post thread ever. Everyone like write karangan only!!

I know you are not promoting it to save the cost of the operation la. I know! I am just saying for example. Sorry if the example wasnt appropriate.

You people really can put up a good argument!! Just for your information, the impact you tried to make, works on me. I can see that poor dog is now semi-white due to mange.

About puppies sold without MKA cert, I believe that makes a difference as small as it may be. I mean there are people out there who specifically look for those with certification so that if they feed them, breed them and sell them, its worth something. I'm not so sure on the market price as I have not survey in a while but I think non-MKA certified dogs are cheaper by RM1,000 is it?

Yea, I also noticed unbelieving amount of ID10TS making money by breeding mixed breed. I mean, what the hell is wrong with these people? I cant believe there's even market for this... What they trying to do next? Breed a dog and cat? A lady and a horse to get a Centaur? Wow weee... we are moving onto the Land of Narnia.


Yes dear, splitting the answers would be great. I know we all got to work but it's so tempted to reply back here to see what others may write!! Woo hoo!!!

"A mother/parent can raise and take good care of 10 children, but it is not a guarantee that the 10 children will be able to do the same to her/them." <--- This is damn right!!

You mean after you give birth to a certain amount of children, would you wanna "ikat" (like spay / neuter) or you want to go on with birth control measures? Hmmm... humans would definitely go for "ikat" but then if its for me, if my wife wont want to, I wont force her. Since furkids cannot voice out saying "No, daddy, dont slice my balls!" I just cannot bring myself to JUST-DO-IT for them.

Iggy sounds like a name for lizards than to sugar gliders. But it's a nice name, only very long! Try having the elder in your family pronounce it! Hahahaha... I think your sugar glider will be very confused.

About the sugar glider example on the fact that we can neuter the male but not spay the female. I am talking about it being in the wild. If a male is neutered, the female cannot be spayed (too risky so we conclude as cannot), then that will somehow still contribute to the overpopulated of sugar gliders. Now I am no pro with sugar gliders. I had wanted them and the urge just kept coming back. My sister and gf is stopping me from getting a pair but I had really really want it. So occassionally I would go read up on them in the Sugar Glider thread.

You're the pro when it comes to sugar glider so its my privilege to be educated by you on some information you might share. I didnt know that female sugar gliders who has been paired with one male, takes a long and tedious process to be paired with another male. I believe what you're trying to tell me is that they are faithful to their other half?? Is it??

So neutering the male sugar glider will help with the baldness, turn yellowish and smell issue? Now that is a positive point which might be considered for you sugar gliders lover.

Oh, sugar gliders cannot survive here eh? OKOK... This is educating!! Are you married? How old are you and how does cat make your husband happier and calmer? Lastly, I am not stubborn and I dont have double personality!!

You are all against me isnt it? Hehehe... Anyway, good choice! I can see you take this seriously with the research and the possible questions popping up in your head. I am glad you have the courage to take that step. Good for you.

---

Added on January 16, 2008, 4:12 pmOK, after seriously considering what mrkenjiro wrote, I think maybe spaying and neutering can be a positive thing for our pets health concern.

Now a new question for everyone in here... I want to breed my dog but dont know when but it's not now, possibly. I cannot decide how many litter I want.

Since there so many things that is undecided now, I will not spay / neuter them. Will it be alright later if I suddenly decide to? I know the risk of operation will be there as it gets older.

Since I put up a good fight on my beliefs on saying TAKNAK to spaying / neutering. I hope you guys can put up a equally good fight to guide me down the right path.

Now this aint about double personality or double standards. This is just something that's been bothering me a while. It's not like I can neuter them now and put it back later...

This post has been edited by Pennywise: Jan 16 2008, 04:31 PM

Hell yeah, just look at how fast I'm replying



Yup, I'd definitely consider it rather than going for the everyday pills or quarterly jabs or yearly things replacement...



Err, don't really get the 1st part you're saying cuz I thot I've already explained it...

You're welcome anytime at the Sugar Glider's thread

Yes, basically they're loyal and thrives on companionship, that is also why it is not advisable to keep a group of non-neutered pairs together in one cage, bad things can happen... They can be introduced to other males, but there's a procedure to follow lah



Ohh, YES it does! No more balding, no more yellowish and no more smell issues!

That's why I said he is a handsomer boy now Can't resist to kiss his lil' nose everytime I see him



Yes, they can't, because we don't have their nature here and there are too many of their predators out there.



I did say I have a husband right?

Well, he says the cat is smart and listens to him (cuz I don't ), very playful, keeps him entertained and I've seen times when he is frustrated or mad over his work/family issues that he keeps calm by stroking the cat (which when we didn't have a cat, he'll go mad at almost everything!) Ohh and plus the fact that we don't have kids



Hahaha, fine!

---



I think it should be alright, probably not too old I guess... But I am not an expert with dogs, so I shall give way for those who are better knowledge in it

I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help/guide you the right measures


KP

This post has been edited by krynzpeaches: Jan 16 2008, 05:26 PM

This thread is interesting, read every single word, and for the sake of making this more debatable and perhaps lo0Onger! Or perhaps, it should be better said is to keep this thread alive and more people educated.

Nope, not ALL breeders. I do put a price tag on my puppy for sale, and I do ask for a higher price compared to what is averagely asked, but i strongly believe that i'm not earning more money, or should I say my bank account had not exceed 1k if you believe me.

People might ask, wow you are selling maybe the most pet products in LYN yet you do not have cash in hand more than 1k? YES! Reason is eventhough i do put a price tag on my puppies, but at the same time i spend most or more than what I get. Providing them good food, good home, staying with them at home = not able to work outside even with a degree on hand.

Also, I do not put a price tag on them if money is needed to save their lifes. This is because, i love the dog.

But of corse, i know you are not pointing it to me, but just to point out that, not ALL breeders are bad. There are good ones, and it is really hard to be a good one.

Same in dog breeding. Too many unethical breeder and we can't stop them as long as there are buyers with mentality that price come first, ethicality later. And the fact that there are many, else how on earth these backyard breeders able to raise hundreds on dogs and still surviving?

My point is, we can't stop the unethical breeder and i dont believe people's mentality will change in my life time.

Hence, instead of discourage breeding, which means even people who cares will have no choice but to buy from these unethical breeders; i strongly believe in encourage responsible breedings. I personally thought that, If I find a person who is a sincere dog lover, who value a dog's life like his own, and one day if he appears and says "I intend to breed my dog", I believe most of the forumers will against the idea, and few will react kind of agressively, without even try to discuss more about responsible breeding. But if this person comes to me, and I realised that he is a much better candidate compared to those backyard breeders, I would say go ahead and I will guide you through it!

I dare to say that, I do agree with the request of some of my maltese buyers to breed their maltese, provided I known them for long, chat with them many many times, and they gain my trust & respect on ways they are treating their maltese.

To breed or not to breed, it really depends on what is your objective and goals.

Some breeders breed and strive for perfection. Some hoping to get the offsprings. Some don't give a damn about the quality, but they do it ethically. No matter what is your objective, the important part is, do it responsibly.

Like what you mentioned, this is not an easy task. There are risks involving the mother, their offsprings might inherits some genetic problems. Now, I see a person who is concern before deciding on breeding. If you dont mind, I would ask " Do you think that, a backyard breeder, or unethical ones, will borders?" If the mom gets into complication, and it requires a treatment cost a bomb, or at least cost more than what the breeder value the mother dog, do you think he will go for it? OR leave it to death? And averagely speaking, how many GR breeders on the market now, that you think, will stop breeding their GRs if their GRs have Hips problem, or they might not even border to find out?

And will the story change, will the scenario be different, if you are the breeder?

That's why, it really depends on what you want, when comes to breeding.

I prefer females than males, becoz, females on heat 1 year twice, males do marking 1 day maybe 20 times.

I can't decide for you, but I have to say, I am confidence that if you are going into breeding, people will have a better choice of breeder if they were to look for a westie. You tell me, how many westie breeder out there that you think will care more for their westie than you? If you can count it, then you know what I mean.

YES, I understand that my discussion is MORE on breedings, but one couldnt deny that "neutering/spaying" is always argued alongside with "breedings". They are buddies! Dont seperate them PLEASE. Thread starter kindly amend the topic to, "neutering, spaying & breeding?" or anything alike? Then this thread will be even lo0Onger and MORE fun for Pennywise!

Hi Whitepalace,

Thanks for your feedback! I am glad you enjoy reading this thread.

I have some feedback to your comments but I am kind of busy today and will post it later. About the tittle of the thread, currently that's my poll question and I am still thinking how to change it to include breeding issue too If anyone has idea let me know and i will gladly change it later. Meanwhile, do feel free to post your comments and opinion. I notice that a number of people answered yes to the poll but at the moment only Pennywise is putting his opinion out to share (even though he accidentally click on the no ).

My God, look at the scroll bar for this window. Because we wrote so much, now the page looks so long!!

Anyway, Yang, I admit I dont know any good Westie breeder out there. However, I think Junnie87 is one? I've seen her sell Westie a couple of times now.

Thats what i m trying to say. If u think it is cruel to neuter, its even crueler to not let the dog have sex even though they want to. Male dog will be a nuisance and go frustrated when a female is on heat nearby. So i think its best to neuter it if you can.

Pennywise, i dont have time to read all your replies, but from what i see, you are putting everything on god's will. I think that is very wrong. Time is different now and then. You have the power to prevent something from happening. If you have done everything you could to prevent something, and it still happens, then you can say it is god's will. If you had not done anything, please put the blame on yourself for lending a hand in making that thing happen.

Its as though a student who had not studied and fail saying that it is god's will that he fail today and suffer. I understand all of us have emotions and some really cant bear to neuter our pets. But i believe that is your ego saying. If you dun intend on breeding your pets, then just neuter them. Everything will still be functional except for reproductions. If you debark your dog, thats a different story, that i would say weigh a different sin on them.

This post has been edited by Mr. Z: Jan 17 2008, 05:57 PM

Hahaha... I cant help it if that's the impression I gave out but indeed I was trying to escape in that direction. However, dont take my post seriously. I got tons of replies from others on how we play a part and if we dont do them, the blood is also in our hands. Hahaha... Just some point of argument with the rest, for fun. You should read them, it's nice to watch us bicker once in a while!

This one I agreed.


Probably the people mentality wouldn't change in a lifetime, but we should still try and educate as many as possible. Sometimes, people are ignorant because they lack the knowledge and information. Hopefully, when more are aware of the issue, it would help to change the mentality a little.

I am not against breeding dog. It is good that a person does research and approach experienced breeder to learn more before breeding their dogs.

However, i disagree a bit on the bold part above.
There are a lot of reason people breed:
- I want to make $$!
- I want another dog just like mine
- Every female dog should have a litter
- My dog is registered and it would be a waste not to breed it
- my kids should see the wonder of birth and life
- I want to improve the breed

A lot of breeder (not all) now fall into the first one unfortunately.
IMO, a person should only breed when he/she feels that he/she is improving the breed of the dog, not just to get the offsprings. The person should also not breed the dog especially he/she knows that the dog has hereditary problems. Proper research must be done before any breeding.

What is your defination of breeding responsibly? Let discuss.

Yes, unfortunately, lots of the GRs currently has hip problems due to their breeder just want to make $$ and does not care about the quality. The owners who purchased these puppies suffered - those who loves their puppies enough end up spending lots of $$ for medical bills while the unfortunate ones are abandoned when the owner found out about the problem.

Erm, I thought Junnie87 is a dog agent?

Whatever she is, I just know she has Westies for sale and I also believe she is very ethical with her work.

No wonder the other day I went to this pet shop, the cardboard stated there Maltese selling at RM1.8K but 100% looked like Westie sial.