YOU GOTTIT BRO!

EMUNAH

Ok I don't quite understand what has been going on lately but it seems like suddenly Desmond2020 has got it and i presume that he is safe. So am I safe or not, at this particular point in time, Prophetjul ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Aug 4 2023, 12:38 PM

Here is the discussion with UW.

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=107835296

Again you ask me read more discussion until my head also pusing.

I think you guys are like the levels of the Roman Catholic Cardinals and the Pope, what they write I also don't understand.

We are not arguing about what is dead or live faith.

We are arguing works can never be a criteria for Salvation, lets not get distracted from that point.

The Jewish understanding of Faith and Works is also properly stated in Ephesians 2:8-10.

Apostle Paul was a Jew who has steep understanding of Judaism more than others in the group.

Yet He was turned around by Christ to look away from the Law.


As for your last question, the point on Salvation can never be on Alive or dead faith being the criteria, saving the person.

What saves a person is the blood of Christ. Because if that wasn't enough, Ephesians 2:8-10 would have not come to existence.

James never make mention on this in James 2. The examples He gaves (All of them) have nothing to do with being Saved.

The word save in James 2:14 are in the context of those example meaning to deliver the person from their predicament.

If you disagree the pray tell me, what has providing cloth, food, Abraham offering Isaac, Rahab saving the spies have to do with getting you saved from your sins?

I think this verse is very clear without any ambiguity.


John 1:12 (KJV) - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


The word believe in the greek is "pisteuó" - I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

It has nothing to do with western or eastern understanding of the word faith/believe.

Definition of "pisteuó"= persuading oneself with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord.

In simple terminology = change of mind.

No sure why someone bring up issue of work alone can attain salvation. The point here has always be faith is never alone, in absent of good work.

Curious, what type of works alone without faith can attain salvation ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Aug 4 2023, 05:12 PM

nobody is bringing up work alone can attain salvation.

The issue is work "cannot" be a criteria for Salvation, whether partner with faith or not.

Absolutely no idea, you better ask the guy who bring that up

Did someone bring that up ? I haven't been following the thread closely because it's beyond my level most of the time, especially with the word works.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Aug 4 2023, 05:15 PM

The word works basically refers to deed or action.

Ephesians 2:9 is very clear, Salvation is given not by works but by grace through faith.

Grace basically means unmerited favour of God. Something given to you unmerited or unearned.

To argue that works is needed makes Ephesians 2:9 to be untrue then.

And the argument always revolves around James 2 faith without works is dead.

The book of James do not contradict Ephesians 2:9 because the works there has nothing to do with Salvation.

To say that it is, again negate Ephesians 2:9.

The bible is very clear on this.

What saves the person is the work of Christ, His blood. Not works.

Faith.

i guess you don't understand what is justification. And justified unto righteousness.


Where would your SALVATION be without being JUSTIFIED unto RIGHTEOUSNESS?

Again in Romans 4



This post has been edited by prophetjul: Aug 4 2023, 05:58 PM

I do understand how we are justified under the new covenant.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not by the works of the Law repeated few times.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 4 2023, 06:00 PM

i just showed you how the OT sages were justified unto imputed righteousness.



And what is 'faith' in Jesus Christ?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Aug 4 2023, 06:08 PM

Read back Romans 4 why Abraham was imputed righteousness in verse 21 and 22 as you highlighted.

The Holy Spirit is careful to record how he got that righteousness.

He believed (persuaded) God will keep His promises and that God will also be able to perform. Based on his belief, therefore righteousness was imputed to him and it wasn't because he raised the knife that righteousness was imputed to him.

Read that carefully.

Divide it carefully.

New Covenant Righteousness is given through your believe in Christ.

Romans 3:22 (KJV) - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Bible is very clear on this.

Prophetjul,

Read Romans 4


1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Verse 2 is very clear. "IF" Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to boast about BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

Sorry for the caps bold but emphasis needed to know God WOULD NOT HAVE IT.

Verse 3 hits home run! Abraham believed God and based on "believe" He was credited righteousness.

Verse 4 help to understand better why works cannot be a criteria for Salvation because it would make God owe the person Salvation, yet God would not have it that way.

Verse 5 This is the best, solidify the emphasis. How would you like that God justify the "ungodly" (and if you think about, why not the Godly? It makes more sense to do so) You know why? So that NOBODY can argue that works is can be made criteria as Salvation.

I don't know how this is not clear enough.

Read when Abraham was imputed righteousness.
And it's not just God performing. It's Abraham performing! AT 100 YEARS YOUNG! That's FAITH IN ACTION!
Do you think Abraham's faith would have been perfected if he did not perform with Sarah?

Divide it carefully.

On a side note. If works is not required for faith, conversely can works derail faith? What is therefore, "faith in Jesus"?



This post has been edited by prophetjul: Aug 4 2023, 07:35 PM

Yet, Romans 4:19 tells us, Abraham did consider his own body (& Sarah ) unable to perform (he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old), not unless God is the one who renew Him!

Romans 4:21 points to God being the one who performed the promised miracle and based on Abraham's faith in God for that, Abraham was credited righteousness.

In a nutshell, God is always the main focus when it comes who gives both the will and the act/work/deed.

Philippians 2:13 (NIV) - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

I know my Bible lah bro.

When I talk about works cannot be a criteria is not the same as to say we are not to work or meaning should not work. This is the bad assumption.

Also do consider Post #817.

All in all, the bible is consistent, works cannot be a criteria for Salvation. The book of James is dealing with a different matter, it's not Salvation.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 4 2023, 08:30 PM

Faith in Jesus means that you believe (despite many who don't), He is who He claims to be.

Also that you believed what He did; ie He came to remove your sins on cross.

These events did not happened before you eyes, therefore it honors God for someone who did not see this yet believed.

Why is faith in Jesus has to be a step No. 1 importance before anything else? Even before you attempting to work.

Under the new covenant Christ said this,

John 15:5 (NIV) - “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Faith is required for Holy Spirit to work in the person's life ie to change his character, to be fruitful, etc.

I know many Christians only lip-service this verse because they feel they can always do something.

For me personally I honor this verse and I believe, apart from Christ I can do exactly what He says...which is nothing.

And the context has to do with bearing fruits, something you painstakingly tried so hard to convince on works.

What has bearing fruits got to do with works? Everything under the New Covenant.


Philippians 2:13 (NIV) - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Without faith and If God is not the main factor and if you think that is not the truth as well as root source power for work, you can try work all you want. It will be only your flesh effort which results in inconsistency, sometime causes doubt even and this causes some believers to think God is not with them.

I don't know how to make this any clearer than it already is.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 4 2023, 09:00 PM