All that you have listed has to be fulfilled BEFORE one is even born again. I see no point going back to basics. Now for me it's about going forward, not to basics.

What sweating, grinding of teeth etc etc has anything to do with being born again ? Nothing. I don't remember sweating or grinding my teeth while doing God's will. In fact I was walking on cloud nine doing God's will.

I really don't understand where you are going with sweating, grinding of teeth etc doing God's will. If that is true, then why our Lord says His yoke is easy and burden light ? Truly truly, our Lord's yoke is really easy and His burden extremely light.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 27 2023, 12:23 PM

Wait a minute ...are you saying that by just believing in those lines only, without needing to be born again for doing the will of God, one will be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven ? Just believe and that's it ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 27 2023, 08:46 PM

how do you read John 6:40?

That is like walking on thin ice, very very thin ice in my shallow limited opinion.

For me John 6:40 is not enough to secure a seat in heaven. Only by being born again and doing God will as mentioned by our Lord Jesus Christ seems like a safer bet.

How does one interpret Matthew 7: 21-23 then ?

Sorry I am not a bit slow on our various differences of our backgrounds but blardy slow, anyway just came across this guy on YouTube who is warning Prosperity Gospel preachers the mistakes they are making because whatever is being preached in not from Gospel, which I agree. Then suddenly he turned around started to go after Catholicism and that caught my attention. So he was saying just believing would be sufficient, works are not needed. And Catholic Church is against that, seriously I didn't even know that.

If that is so, then why on earth when our Lord walked upon the earth doing all the good works for the people ? Why didn't our Lord just go around telling others just to believe in him and they will be saved instead ? No works required.

When a born again does miracles in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, are these works are work of the hands of those born again OR are they the works of Almighty God Himself ? Of course these miracles are the works of Almighty God. I would be a liar and a thief, if I have a slightest audacity to even claim any part of it was actually mine. I don't dare to even claim, you guys will immediately call me bluff straightaway. 🤣🤣🤣

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 27 2023, 09:35 PM

I like how you write. You are right, you are straight to the point but sincere.

The Lord doing all the good works for the people is to testify who He is, messiah and as deity, Son of God.

Work is not criteria for Salvation because if works is required then Ephesians 2 verse 8 and 9 cannot be true then.

Go check that verse out bro.

Understanding the context of Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This is another one of those verse that has been abused to put unnecessary fear into believer's life by well meaning preachers but it's a very misunderstood one.

Today I'm here to clear that away by giving you clear scriptures so that you can check it for yourself for the truth.

In account of Matthew 7, the verse are quite short but you can find this same passage in Luke 13:22-30 where it's explain more in detail.

This is the same account because it starts off with "narrow door", same thing found in Matthew 7:13-14. So these 2 passages are the same thing.

So what is Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord actually referring to?

This chastisement is not for the believers.

Why?

Because if you read carefully in Luke 13:22-30, it's referring to a period in time where the Age of Grace, (the door) is closed.

Luke 13: 25 (NIV) - Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

Meaning to say, the people who beg for God to open the doors are unsaved people. The ones who are saved have entered in.

Jesus Christ has warned us many times...the door for grace will be closed in parables of 10 virgins, bags of gold and sheep and goats (Matthew 25)

These unsaved people realizing their souls are being judged, in panic and false pretense beg God to recognize them. God is truth, He speaks the truth, God cannot lie.

If God never knew these people, it would mean these are the ones who rejected Him while alive on earth.

It would be unjust for God If He knew the person but to say I never knew you. Never means not even once. The key factor is here, you can put on your thinking cap for a moment on this.

Even in the book of revelations, God could could say I know your works but...... (Revelations 2, 3). "But" here means God acknowledge but there is a lacking.

Anyway on site note. Don't get worried on the phrase narrow door and the verse that says make every effort to enter in. It's not implying..it is challenging and hard to enter in, NO.

Narrow door basically means Jesus is THE ONLY way, that is what it means. There isn't any other way to God. Hence "Narrow", some preachers give erroneous idea, you need to struggle through because it's narrow.
A thousand times NO! That is not what it means. The reason why Christ said make every effort to enter in.....is because once the door is closed*, many will not be able to enter in. It's a straight and simple meaning in that context*
Making every effort = to enter in NOW before the door is closed and by then it's too late.

Some people waited too long to decide. Salvation is NOW, never something you can afford to wait for tomorrow.

If you still have doubt on this, then read the entire chapter in Matthew 25. The doors are close = talking about judgement day. The people who are unsaved will be judged by God. When these are judged and realized they are sentenced to eternal condemnation in hell, do you reckon they will try then and there to say whatever they can, realizing it is eternal suffering? Of course they would! You can put your thinking cap on for this.

Jesus Christ will never say "I never knew you" to believers who are saved. Saved by what and whom? By the believer's work? A thousand times NO. That is heresy. Saved by the one who died on the cross! God knows who are his own.

John 5:24 (NIV) - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Do you see the word there "will not be judged"? If that is so, will Christ ever say "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord..." to the one who are not judged? It is plain and simple and Scripture is so clear on this.

If all that has been said above still does not convince you, then you have a problem. You have no faith in God's words of promises, you only have faith in your own works. You are longing for a works-based Salvation that has been set aside and made void (Old Covenant), It is no longer offered by God and it is no longer valid.

You may want to then do some reflection where you have missed it. You have not understand why Christ came and why Christ died on the cross.

Give some thought to this devotion.

God Bless.

Small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, but then why does our Lord add ... only a few find it ?

I was thinking about the word, works. These works of wonders by God is also a sign for others that the person is approved by God for one has completed his training, correct ? False teachers they can't do anything no matter how mega their churches are because God is not with them. That is how we as Christians will know if they are false or are they the real deal, one should be learning from. If one is false in any way or form, sooner or later the Devil will come in.

I was shocked to hear during one of Kenneth Copeland talks that he does not know the Holy Scriptures, by his own admittance. If one does not know, how is it he is able to lead a mega church ? Utterly shocking, what on earth is he actually teaching ? And people are giving him tons of money for such teachings ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 28 2023, 07:19 PM

I'll be honest to say I don't know why Christ said that. We don't know the full revelation in the Bible, nobody does , except the Holy Spirit.

But what I do know is that in book of Revelations 7

Revelations 7:9 (NIV) - After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

According to this verse, the people who made it to heaven are uncountable. So this means "only a few find it" means something else. It cannot refer to only a few enter Heaven.

My style of reading the Bible, whatever I don't, yet understand, I keep it aside, until it is revealed later or if not I'll ask God when I meet Him in Heaven.

But when I contemplate Matthew 7:14, it could very possible refer to blessed life here on earth. Because eternal life in Greek = aiónios zóé. Whereas here in Matthew 7:14, it's only zóé.

Possibly talking about abundant life that Christ promised. (John 10:10).

======================================================

When you talk about works of wonder, I guess you're referring to God's miraculous power? I don't believe as how most conservative church teaches where it's only given to the most pious or most approved.

If we go by what the Bible states, it's promised to any believer via their faith. Only thing is, every believer is given different giftings, so not everyone has gift of healing or deliverance, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that, the Holy Spirit will give every believer different giftings. But every believer has God's power operating, it's not reserved only for the VIP church leaders, apostles or only pastors..No.

It's given to every common believer. So it may interest you to find out what is your gifting.

Yes for me, works always refers to God miraculous power. The works of our hands can never attain salvation nor miraculous signs. They can't do anything. It is the Spirit that counts, not the flesh.

Agree, it is only God who gives the Baptism of Fire and the church can only give the Baptism of Water that's it. So anyone whom God looks upon with favour and has completed his training will be ready for all kinds of God's work.

I believe why conservative church would want to keep their man under control, is because if it is truly the Holy Spirit at work, then all is fine, no problemo. However if evil spirits somehow gets involved, things can go awry very very fast to the detriment of members of church in question. And to resolve it, the big shots will have to get involve by then and it is a risk. Confronting evil spirit is always risky, extremely risky.

Yes I do agree the Holy Spirit is not limited for VIP etc only, well even priests, pastors themselves had failed before after coming into office. It's not that the Holy Spirit had failed. It's men themselves that had failed. It is God's wish to give His Holy Spirit to whomever He so pleases and He can give, He can surely also take away, when one turns to sin.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 28 2023, 09:11 PM

anyone thinking they can "EARN" the salvation is wrong at all level.

Just like the thief next to Jesus. Believe and Saved.



On top of that.

i believe :

We are Saved to Serve the God.
We never Saved becaused we Served.

The thief on the cross was an exceptional one case because he couldn't do anything anymore and luckily for him, he believed in our Lord Jesus Christ and then he died. If the thief did not died, but was free to continue to sin, no way he would be in paradise. Stop sinning or something worse will happen.

Wait a minute, ok let's take this as a discussion, We never saved because we served. Who are you serving here ?

nope.

Anyone trying to tainted human effort into Christ's salvation is always sending God a big loud message :

"You alone, cant get the job done. In the end, we still need to count ourselve."


Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
Gal 5:2

This is the same context like you mentioned. We need to do something to be considered "Worthy" , Or we will lose our salvation.

This is blasphemy. Because this message is telling God, you alone cant save us. We need to save ourselve.

This is the quickest way to have one lose thier salvation. By being "Reject" Salvation offered by Jesus.
And Start offered themselve another way to be "Saved"

maybe my english is bad


God Saved you not because you served HIM

God Saved you to Serve HIM.

Saved is Done. Serve come later.

And those who served well, prize are waiting.

Those who reject Jesus's Salvation ( by alter/refuse to believe ) are considered Reject Salvation.

The thief on the cross was an exceptional one case because he couldn't do anything anymore and luckily for him


This is a obviously example of Truth Rejection.


God is Perfect.
God is Justice.

If some1 think Jesus's blood only Clean the SIN before you accept the Christ ( but not After .... )
This is another great example of Truth Rejection.

Are you telling the world, the best moment to accept Christ is seconds before you Die?


What Jesus salvation covered were the sin of our life ( whole life )

Except the Sin of Reject Salvation/Truth.

If your command of English is not so good, then I recommend that you don't start creating your own words because that is in direct contradiction with our Lord teaching. What is really really bad is, if your words starts misleading others, dont you know what is going to happen ?

For me, the best moment of being a Christian is when I had been born again and doing God work. I don't even know what I had been doing for the first 40 yeàrs of my life not been born again. Wandering aimlessly in the "desert" I guess. 🤣🤣🤣

I don't know how you got the idea that I am Rejecting the Truth but we better stop communicating because I can guarantee you that we don't understand each other. I am born again and doing God work and I am Truth Rejection ? You got me. Please explain how did that simple logical plus chronology of the thief who died on the cross is Truth Rejection.

Wait a minute what Holy Bible are you reading ?



This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 28 2023, 10:30 PM

Google charles templeton
1 of the Greatest Preacher in US
He publicly rejected God. ( after 30 years serving God and maybe bring thousand and thousand of people into Christ )



1 can doing God's work at the same time Rejecting Truth.

You are 1 fine example.

You are saying, Our Effort matters in Salvation which is very offensive to God's Original Plan of Salvation.

This post has been edited by ifourtos: Jul 28 2023, 10:34 PM

So I have rejected God ? How is it that you are aware that I am a fine example of someone who has rejected God when I don't even know myself that I have rejected God. Being born again is rejecting God ? Doing God will is rejecting God ?

Do you even understand fully what I have written ?

If effort don't matter, will continue living in sin give me salvation ?

Ok ok don't do God will and you will get into heaven ? Who is Rejecting the Truth ? Do you even know what is the Truth ?

Now answer me, which church are you attending ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 28 2023, 10:51 PM

i remember you
the bad mouthing Roman Catholic

i once "advise" you, dont do that
and you bash me off.

You just so confidence that you are LIVING A HOLY LIFE
and do not allow anybody to "challenge" that "facts"
and keep telling the world, you are a Fine Soldier of Kingdom of God.


Did you tell you to live in SIN?
I remind you to take off your "Holy Skin"

Salvation is Holy, Pure, and Totally Based on God's Grace.
However, God's Rewards are another story.


Any1 saying Salvation is a kind of "reward" and factored in human behaviour. Is rejecting Truth.




If i have not written this to you, i guess, you are not that "guilty"
But once i have expose this to you, directly.

You have no place to hide. Because you have been clearly warned to "recheck" your life, your mind, you heart.

i remind you because your username represent Church.
You should really becareful what you said in this forum.

And you continue to use rude words to bash me off.


Well, i am fine. but this is 2nd time i give you some important reminder.

and you bash me off again.