I have no idea why anyone wants to be turkey. They fucked up their economy & currency royally and they are no nearer to their objective with eragon pivot to bebas aktif from previous NATO tools. Yes Im classifying bebas aktif is just another independence foreign policy something that happened under mahathirism as well. India is another country that's really isn't going anyway fast enough.

Technically there's no human right issues in not just Israel but Saudi as well. Anyone who is useful, they would close an eyes to it. Technically if ID is a good tools they would close an eyes on it just like Sinkie & Arab gulf countries with their slave laborer issues. Or how slavery & human trafficking issues in MY are quickly ignored.

ID economy & infrastructure pick up recently particularly under Jokowi but it come from the letting go some element of bebas aktif. Mostly fuel by debt. But abilities to acquired more debt depends on the stability of rupiah which depends on western being friendly and invest more FDI and not raising concerned or whatever which would throw them back to square 1.

Well let not go too nationalistic and avoid the issues. ID army aren't as strong as they would, their defense budget is as big as SG but it seem most are ties to personel count at the expenses of equipment
nor their economic development are dispensared. Ignoring those issues on nationalistic ground won't do ID any good. It is afterall the same issue Jokowi trying to solve which earned him his popularity.

But if you want to continue on as always then don't vote for Probowo next presidential election.If they choose Probowo afterwards & allowed probowo defense is an investment program now. It's pretty much about creating an economic of scale during Jokowi which he himself would double down making it's imposibaru for the next guy to turn cause from western dependency.


Logistical issues is a big problem. Jet are expensive, but missiles are far more expensive. At the end even if one buy European weapon the ability to use it continuously to do things US don't like is limited. EU would take the same US stand as both play out the human right issues. So outside of few instances, there's really no tangible benefits there. That not the efficient way to remove a future threats of embargoes.

Arab do acquired both flagship EU & US jet. but it mostly due to possible US future withdrawal from the middle east and thus they are currying favor with EU for future protection. What can ID achieve from getting both Rafale & F15?

The only thing I see if they acquired both Rafale & F15, then it mean they won't want to accelerate their military strength & economic development to it's maximum potential level continuing with susilo doctine of careful progress to balance internal stability at the cost of economic progress which would giving us a good 30 years of leaptime to adjust. If they acquired either Rafale or F15 then it mean they really wanted to leapfrog and accelerate economic development & military strength.

For me as her neighbor, what they choose is their rights. All we can do is adjust our planning & policy depending on which route they took.

idk much about Malaysia military spending
but im quite sure we dont have the budget to go around shopping for new toys
have to pre-order equipment, supporting equipment, train new technicians mechanics new pilot/operator.
then maybe have to start or earlier to decommission some older equipment. which will still cost $$$.

so far the only countries that i think are somewhat not nice to Malaysia, visa versa

-china - island and territorial water claims
-philippines -sabah claim
-isreal -thank chedet
-north korea -assassination of jong nam, and their deporting their citizen

ok di
-singapore, we kick em out, and sometimes trespass, water price
-indonesia, confrontation, many lupa adi, sukarno out
- rest all small issue

An Indonesian youtuber have been given the opportunity to take a ride inside the PTDI N219 Nurtanio light aircraft during taxiing.



This post has been edited by azriel: Oct 9 2021, 03:03 PM

Not joining the China conflict will only see them eventually overrun by a strong NK, if China wins. There are no long-term benefits to helping China or even staying neutral.

Furthermore, during this "market penetration" phrase of Korean arms industry, they will be less susceptible to sanctions.

Russia and China are the same as Russia and Germany in 1939, and Russia and France in 1810. They may have long-term antagonism but China won't be so stupid as to play Napoleon and Hitler twice, and Russia likewise will at best play both sides off against each other. Neutrality will thus also affect availability of Russian-sourced arms.

India is a different story. Previously they have been lukewarm to the US until the Osama fiasco so now the US still regards them cautiously, but yes we will probably see gradual warming up.

Opposite mapren

France still wants Anglo help (at least until this recent submarine issue, not sure how far that will go) because they are still UK's #1 European trading partner, plus they are working together at grassroots in Africa. They are furthest away from the front lines so they don't care as much about superpower struggles, just like in Cold War 1.

It is Germany, the strongest economy (and political force thanks to Merkel) in the EU who wants to play big brother on the Continent and supplant the US. They want to recruit France away from the Anglo alliance but don't have the bargaining power of the full Anglo alliance. So now they are turning to the Dutch and Scandis.

Observe the EFP lead nations. 3 Anglos, 1 German. That tells you the lay of the land; France is not a lead nation.


With Germany at the lead, as the big brother.

True, but not because French want to be lead nation; France is just a worldwide arms supplier since the AMX-13 and Mirage III

They won't even sanction unless pressured by somebody, they don't give fuck for SJWs


Nah. If we are talking about solely from the view of cost and availability, my ranking is Anglo-Saxon, Korean, French, Turkish.

The reason why is Anglo is cheap and anti-China, Korean is cheap and at the very least neutral, French is expensive but neutral, Turkish is cheap and probably neutral.

This is a very good point though.

But Chinese A2/AD are particularly strong due to SK location. And CCP are knowns to play temper tantrums when SK place their missiles.

You are correct in there's no long term benefits,but for now it seem they are undecided on how to proceed.




Don't know, the whole wolf worrior diplomacy & facism phase they going through is pretty stupid IMHO. I believe in LKY assessment that there's nothing to gain playing superpower & challenge the US prematurely. But they did anyway. Smelling blood even if CCP backed down now, US won't let them.

India is a different story. Previously they have been lukewarm to the US until the Osama fiasco so now the US still regards them cautiously, but yes we will probably see gradual warming up.
Opposite mapren



They still want anglo Saxon help. Technically AUKUS do help them a bit to push for the whole European autonomy things. And they still willing to help the Anglo Saxon.



News for me really. Guess German is like PN belakang main, while france keep throwing all their card out to public like PH.

Germany had always play DaGe to EU, a lot of people talk about France power play to take the position from Germany but not so much about how Germany going to preserve leadership of their 4th Reich. I was thinking it's impossible for Germany to lie down and let France get it way, they afterall do try to recruit turkey & the Balkans B4 to reduce french influence.

Guess UK had gone back to their splendid isolation then. Where the poke around EU from the outside rather than together gather inside.

So would Germany want to play 4th Reich and make EU a superpowers themselves?


Well Anglo are the only one anti Chinese group around anyway other then niponjin. Niponjin don't really sell weapons. Would be great if they did. Would really love to see a Gundam or Macross once B4 I die.🤣. So outside of them Anglo Saxon everyone else is at least neutral, even the Russian. So it's not a high bar to pass.

Next i would say France. french army stuff are really cheap & good. Their helo are good as well. It's more design for quick offensive rather than defensive. Just don't buy their ship & jet which is way overpriced. They are neutral but they are willing to play the enemies of your enemies. Just don't called them to the front line that's all.🤣

Afterwards Italy, pretty good at doing high tech stuff on a budget. Just like 5heir car that Italian really fail at the reliability of components which really fucked the sustain cost. Pretty good suppliers of nitch platforms where technological edge is key rather than reliability.

Don't think they take their defense seriously, it's mostly there to tongkat their industry. Mostly produce stuff other people may want. Do you want a cheap, f35A capable mini carrier? We have one. Do you can't afford Poseidon but still want something good? Here's the ATR. You want to hunt tanks? Well we have a fast tank hunter with 120mm cannon. Do you want to fight Chinese navy on a budget? Here's a FREMM. We also have tempest in the works if you want a dual engine F35A.

Korean are ok i guess they know a thing or two about reliability, just like their car, cutting edge high tech is not something they good at, (because it's not reliable) & their products are cheap. It's just soon after you realize why it's cheap. They use aluminum instead of steel on APC for instance. Korean product always sounds like a good buy at 1st, but then you realize you really get what your money worth not more.

Korean, like turkey & sweeden do play around with their navy & AF acquisition a bit. Technically we also did B4. Don't really buy their whole Gripen is enough to counter Sukhoi marketing. At the end they changed their AF strategies because of Gripen. The hornet can land on a road just fine.the Korean build the dokdo then don't really know what to do with it. Now they are building mini carrier strike group rather than a far more important littoral strike group. Seem the whole purpose of Korean navy is product placement & demonstration.

But they all live next to a major land power and so their land equipment aren't main- main. It's reliable,fast & cheap because they all wanted to Field it in numbers, thus the reliability and win some war. Would have preferred more swedish stuff but understably they are small country without much economic & political capital to make such purchase worthwhile. Would love to see CV90 as Adnan replacement in the next 10 years. But the most likely candidates are FNSS, lynx & manwha.

We'll see how it goes. SK will always

They have certain advantages... actually they are like this only because we in EA/SEA are politically fragmented and we let them play. If we present a stronger, united front they have no chance.

Before Osama, US thought Pakistan can help them as a "moderate Islamic country" to counter AQ. So they cuddled up to Pakistan and that pissed off India. Manatau the extremist side won, so US dumped them and China picked up the pieces.

Only cause you probably haven't been following Continental NATO news. Actually the French main belakang in all areas except Africa and West Indies where they have significant ex-colonial and EEZ interests. Germany is the undisputed big boss of Europe.


"Very well, alone"

UK has always been sucking hind tit with the Continentals, only now they are giving up the EU dream, albeit reluctantly for the Bremoaners and SNPs. AUKUS has been a long time coming, the real stubborn ass is Australia who used to dream of replacing UK as US's special relationship. But now that they have been shown to need help more than they are able to give help, they accept their position as adik ke-2 behind UK lor

I believe it will come.

Tempest is British-led, Italians only join because they fed up with the Franco-German alliance, which was dragging its feet - that one a whole nother story.

Otherwise, italians mainly rival France for #2 European military power, and of course dreams of Mediterranean supremacy. (Not sure how true that is.) They are very closely allied to US actually, 1 of the most reliable NATO partners. Diam2 ubi berisi. Still, not sure about their hardware.

I wouldn't be so sure. They seem to be growing by leaps and bounds, nearly as much as China is.

Guess we'll see. But I personally won't bet on that horse particularly since we are really spoiled of horses to bet on.




I think it's remote dream. They Assume the anglo Saxon cannot change ship fast since they got some of them hooked on their money. But them anglo Saxon by history had always good at rapid change of course. And now they reep what they sow.

Anglo Saxon as global time correctly predicted are a wolf pack. They going recruite new wolf to together gather encircle their prey , and wait for the defensive prey to make a mistake and bite. They are really good at blowing death by a thousand bites.

To be fair, trump & covid aren't really something one would took into account while drafting a foreign policies. It's really should be classified as an act of God. Guess CCP don't have the mandate of heaven afterall.




Pakistan is a problem probably because they are a new country that didn't inherited the British civil service culture which is based in new Delhi then. You could say the same with ID as well. They need to learn to be a country due to a lack of inheritance from the former administration.

India is pretty easy country to predict. Just another MY from pecah perintah, excessive nationalsm, can't choose between protectionism & capitalism, love hate nostalgia about Brits, sponsored non state actors that bite them back in the ass & cozying up to US to keep CCP away from their front yards.



Follow their news, but not that religiously. A lot of face saving bahasa berlapik going around, and they move really really slow.too much backroom politics that make even European felt detached from their governance.







Really love anglo Saxon news more, they are really straight forward in what they trying to achieve. The UK the best, they make their whole self servings, self interest policy sounds like they doing everyone else a favor🤣



Waiting religiously for it to cum. Can't wait for the second Cummings of Yamamoto, an overly over the top mind blowing, WTF is that thing they going to come up with.




Cuba citer, cuba citer

Heard Germany too are getting frustrated.
Well France is France, basically a personafication of Vegeta. Overly proud with a can do attitude which they would lose quickly then get extremely butthurt. But always got their ass saves by the anglo Saxon(Goku) and are extremely jelous at the same time grateful for them Anglo Saxon.



They are doing another round of scrambled to Africa if not mistaken, but avoid all the country french think is their plaything.

Don't expect much from Italian engineering,.their car & bike are fast but are also good at getting into flames. Their highway & bridges are impressive but are also falling apart. Good enough for poor man tips of the spears.

Personally doubt they are diam diam berisi. More like another MY & Belgians who are too divided internally thus can't decide on anything. They are a reliable partner because they like to be told what to do, because they can't decide anything themselves

Technically they do. But again, we got better horse for us to ride on.
What They really missing now a unique selling proposition,

technically they got one B4, american jet without all the American baggage but american don't let them play those game, they learn it the hard way similar to the Swedish.

Seem currently they try to sell NATO compatible anti CAATSA essentially a rebadged Russian stuff. But if that concept turn to be a success, India is in a better position to sells it.

They selling a lot of ship and militarized some of it. But it's no different to what Damen is doing. Damen couldn't fight Korean on cost. So they allowed local CKD for local to be banggalah and a good suits of intergrated high keras nexter naval equipment. Nexter is essential snapdragon and manwha is the exenos. Even if exanos are cheap, but selling to gov whose not price sensitive means people still want a snapdragon. For now, they getting a lot of idiots pissed off as they wanted to pay a ship at exonos inside price but expect a snapdragon. 2 customer get frustrated not getting snapdragon turn their ship into a OPV which hurt their image a lot.

They are still on a very early stage like Samsung with android gingerbread b4. They just thrown everything to the wall to see which one stick. Eventually they would find a unique selling proposition & eventually it would be some really good shit. But for now, for us, let just avoid getting hurt and just get an iphone instead.

So our acquisition strategy priorities should go to
1) anglo Saxon who really eager wants to fight CCP
2) EU that's at least pretend to wanna fight CCP
3) country that dislike CCP but didn't want to comes out of the closet saying it out loud.
4) buy weapon from those who neutral & not in CCP pocket.
5)buy weapon from those who neutral but reliance on CCP
6) don't be stupid & buy from CCP themselves or their goons?

Personally don't think we would buy from turkey anymore. They are getting a splendid isolation treatment from almost everyone except for Kuwait & Qatar while Russia is slowly & surely going to get in and backfuck them, their economy are down the drains. Nor any desire to acquired Korean, because again they ain't proud of who they are and hiding in the closet. Unless their deals is too sweet for us to pass over.

Wonder why nobody would start a war? If war start, it is end of earth and human race.

China, USA, Russia, France and Great Britain have ballistic missle submarimes (SSBN) , nuclear powered sub carry at least 12 nuclear ballistic missle that can hit a target between 8,000 km to 11,000 km away. Each with destrying power minimum 1,000 kiloton (1 megaton)

The destroying power of current nuclear ballistic missile is minimum 1 Megaton (1,000 kiloton) per missile. The atomic bomb little boy dropped in Japan that destroyed Hiroshima in 1945, killing 200,000 people on immediate blast and more suffer later. The little boy atomic bomb was only 15 kiloton, that is 1.5% of destrying power of current ballistic missile.

If one nuclear ballistic missle hit a city, its finish, at least 8 million to 10 million will die instantly and the city vapourized.

Below is china type 094A Jin Class at submerged 11,000 tons. Carry 12 Nuclear ballistic missile. Newer type 096 on construction.

In comparison, the US Navy ohio Class SSBN weight 18,000 tons and carry 14 ballistic nuklear missle + 4 cruisr missles.

The Russian Borei class SSBN weight 24,000 tons and carry 24 nuclear ballistic missile

China Type 094A Jin class weight 11,000 tons carry 12 nuclear missiles





This post has been edited by jwst1313: Oct 10 2021, 12:39 PM

US Navy SSBN (SSGN) Ohio class 18,000 tons and 14 nuclear ballistic mizsile + 4 cruise missle

Russia Borei (SSBN) Class 24,000 tons and 24 nuclear ballistic missile

That's why they won't.

Military are a diplomatic & trade tools.

But all the super powers will keep building newer nuclear toys. Show off first to one another. You have i also have but they will mot fight. Only smaller countries with dumb mimisters felt thr impact

The bigger stick you have the more strong you are in diplomatic negotiations. Nuclear deterrence mean NO one stupid enough to attack their homeland so they start looking outward & fight for influence overseas.

Small country can be a failed state if they choose independence foreign policy alone, it's good be parts of a grander coalition of non alliances like NAM or join one of the superpower and be a vessels state like NATO.

Damn that China submarine missiles silos protrude like that...so much sonar signature.

They got to be nuts to design like that

Nuclear but not even pump jet



This post has been edited by Maria Takagi: Oct 10 2021, 04:56 PM

Titik anda ialah...?

Damn you are stupid lol , I hope you are not Malaysian , give us a bad name

Queen Elizabeth tak mai ke?

Ada sekali!

QE docked in Singapore, it's definitely in the area, but not sure if it really is participating

I think somewhat unlikely, given certain indications but I really can't say. Got argument for and against based on current indicators

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Oct 10 2021, 11:25 PM

Question. Seems that Tldm do not install any ciws of such on their boats. Any reason why?

AK630 ciws
Goal keeper ciws
Dardo ciws





This post has been edited by jwst1313: Oct 11 2021, 08:35 AM