Yes you're right that I typically drive the Avanza alone and max at 2 pax .

Most owners/drivers of first gen Avanza (2003 - 2011 , F601 F602) has complaints on its 'exceptionally' harsh and bouncy suspension system from factory . Users generally attribute the harsh/bouncy suspension to combo of stiffer spring/softer shock absorber from Factory .

Just prior to this alignment adjustment job , I followed Avanza car group recommendation of switching to stiffer shock absorber ( KYB RS Ultra) in both front and rear and realise that the previously accepted norms of harsh and bouncy suspension and its discomfort is no longer true , but greatly improved now .

From thence on , I tend to speed faster on good/bad pavement and harder cornering only to realise the relevance and importance of -ve camber which I did not much care about or bother about from previously harsh/stiff suspension from factory .

RS Ultra is real steady and smooth on straight ahead driving on highway currently am beginning to like/prefer/enjoy the RF -ve camber of -0°15' in slightly harder cornering and found LF +ve camber +0°15' a bit irritating at cornering into Right . Not sure if higher +ve camber in (Toyota) preferred +0°30' specs would help in steady and smooth suspension either in straight ahead highway driving and/or right/left cornering ? Who knows .

Improved suspension comfort with full load/weight ? I tend to agree with this approach as I'd found out with my Hilux previously .

At similar design load/weight , isn't a stiffer Ori Avanza spring meant to limit McPherson suspension spring travel and/or changes in alignment angles like say , camber ? IDK .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 8 2021, 10:43 AM

Thanks .... a good ballpark range of camber angles to work with , I suppose .
In your experience , is -0.5° camber edge wear easily noticeable by eye sighting or it can only be felt by running hand fingers/palms over tyre surface to 'feel' the wear or no edge wear indication at all ?
A -1.5° camber would give visually noticeable wear indications I guess ...... what about -1° camber wear , can it be seen with naked eyes too ?

-0.5 is not really a lot, will take quite a bit of time to see uneven inner-outer wear, best is measure thread depth. just remember thread depth can be different for each of the longkang when new, so best keep a record if really serious

for the front, the kingpin angle changes camber angle as you corner, so if -0.5 matches your driving style, you will get even wear. it can wear more on the inside if your mileage is 99% straight line, or more outside if your journey has lots of cornering. there is no one size fits all... but -0.5 is good start and future can adjust from there

running hand around tyre is to check for wave pattern...this indicates absorber problem, nothing to do with alignment

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 04:07 PM

this was my front tyre... inner wear from -1.5 camber/toe in, outer wear from hard cornering... overall quite even wear as you can see from center treads

noobs might think this is under inflated tyre so the wear is on the edges... it's not...I pump it 36 psi, lol

this tyre done over 70k km, and rotated twice... my setting now quite neutral about -0.6 to get more center wear whilst waiting for new tyres launch this year...



This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 03:44 PM

your car keep pulling left... what we also don't know is the rear tyre alignment ok or not? yes I know torsion beam nothing to adjust... but if you hit potholes it can lari cause your car to drift also

it won't affect turn left vs turn right steering feel... for that my wild guess is you're on old tyres that have developed strong conicity due to previous suspension problems and lack of rotation

Brilliant ........ a picture speaks a thousand words .

You gave me a superbly useful idea here in taking pictures periodically on tyre conditions with attached remarks (as I did with my engine oil blotter spot tests ) ..... as a way of observing and keeping track of developments surrounding alignment angles selection choices and and tyre wear trending .

The inner edge pattern has a marginally greater/higher wear rate than that of the outer edge . Granted your specific driving pattern and respective proportion of mileages on straight ahead vs cornering/curved roads , I would speculate this inner edge wear is solely attributed to the 'excessive' camber angle of -1.5° , assuming your toe-in has never gone into negative toe out during the 70K km usage AND underinflation has never occurred which I suppose is highly likely . Not sure if you would agree with .

On outer edge wear , I beg to differ from you and wish to argue that it is not contributed by hard cornering as you proposed but 'solely' caused by toe in over huge amount of straight ahead driving ? I am ignoring quantitative amount or causes of wear within region 5-10 mm from the outer edge sidewall .

dwRK, can you share the amount of toe in as 'installed' then ?

As regards pumped pressure of 36 psi , may I know what is the factory recommended psi for said vehicle ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 07:33 PM

toe is usually very small... around 0.3~1 mm... don't need much & I don't pay too much attention to it, just making sure its +ve or -ve as appropriate

my tyre wear actually suggests my -1.5 camber is not enough, should not be wearing the outside edges too much but I'm reluctant to go higher. fyi hard cornering wear both inner and outer edge...depending on inside/outside wheel... and rwd cars wear slightly different from fwd cars

my car spec is 34... I pump 35-36 for better handling because I have a soft sidewall tyre

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 10 2021, 07:28 AM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Pt. 3) Camber Adjustment - Positive or Negative?
By : YS Khong Driving
8.16 ......... For people who want the car to handle a bit better like driving fast .....wants negative camber .....

11.46 ........For road cars like Honda Civic ,Toyota Vios or Proton etc ..... you probably want to look at maybe -0.5° or -1.0° negative camber ....

20.03 ........negative camber is good for cornering but up to a point .
For normal people ...... don't think should go for more than -1.0°.....
or -1.5° for Bentong Gombak type of road if one is driving fast , otherwise -0.5° or -1.0° is good enough.....
For race track , may be run -2.5° or -3.0° ........

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 10:06 PM

Update :

Redo/readjust (foc) Front wheel alignment to :

Camber :
LF -0°20' (from +0°15') ;RF -0°15' (from -0°15') ;

Toes :
LF +0°07' (from 0°00') ; RF +0°05' (from 0°00') .

Tyre pressure : remains same at 40 psi all round .

(Note :Sorry, miss to take pictures on computer screen . The tyreman flips the screen too fast .)

Pulling left phenomenon still remains , but much improved and better than before .

Instead of swerving to fully occupying left lane in about 6-7 seconds after hands off steering wheel previously , it takes a longer time now at around 10-12 seconds at 90 km/hr ....
but it is still obvious .

But now unfortunately one new problem crops out . Previously steering wheel is straight when driving straight ahead , but now steering wheel is leaning to right when driving straight ahead .

Any comments , folks ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 01:55 PM

They didn't straighten/centre the steering perfectly before locking it for alignment.

After returning from test driving , they drove straight onto alignment machine to check and measure alignment angles .
No, they didn't lock the steering wheel during machine measurement and adjustment .

They then drove off the machine ramp without any adjustment works done on machine , thinking it was another test drive but after some 10 minutes or so only to find the car is in another corner of the workshop (which is out of sight) with LF wheel lifted off ground .

From there , the Avanza was driven onto machine ramp again for measurement of above angle numbers .Only LF camber was adjusted on machine ramp from -0°25' to current -0°20' arriving at above reported numbers , also without locking the steering wheel .
Note: Not sure whether toe was adjusted on the machine ramp at the same time ?

After second test drive back to workshop , with tyres on ground they did some 'adjustment or tightening(?)' over RF side , then call it good to go .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 10:35 PM

Suspension System Functions & Components

by Kansow Vehicle Engineering

Yeah agree that the 0.3~1 mm toe is very negligible indeed .

This value may translate into 0.05-0.10° depending on tyre size .If it is a -ve toe out (instead of toe in) and in a RWD then it may have no role in your tyre outer edge wear above . In this scenario inadequate -ve camber of -1.5° would likely be the culprit for the outer edge wear .

Btw, is the drive a RWD or FWD ?

Yep agree that both inner and outer edge wear could happen to inside/outside wheels in a hard cornering indeed .

Hmm... -1.5° camber may be too negative a value for an Avanza that allows up to a 'minimum' of -0.25° (aka -0°15') . However ,I may consider more negative camber than spec should my tyre wear pattern 'allows' it , who knows .

At 36 psi for a spec'ed 34 psi application, it would likely rule out 'underinflation' issue in assessing your tyre wear pattern, I suppose .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 09:13 PM

no need to help analyse my tire wear...no problem here, i just showing as example... 6uest took one look and say same type of wear as his rwd mark x

your average fwd cars don't need so much -ve camber because the kingpin and caster angles are not very high...all these work together and they are designed for city driving, not performance handling... -0.5° should be plenty, then readjust during next rotation...

your videos are a good start...

here watch these for more in-depth understanding

first of a series of 3 videos...


the dynamics of it...

Last time in uni drive myvi like lalamui sportscar even -1 camber also got makan tepi issue on the outer edge.. tyre shop ppl say i drove too aggressively

Didn't the tyre shop is valid for suggesting your driving style as such ?
..... although too positive a toe in angles may have influenced it as well ....., IMO .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 25 2021, 03:12 PM

Technically they set -1; no issue. Just that i memang drive hard in corners i thinj needed -1.5

Thank you very much, dwRK ..



A very solid video meant for a pro like you , and a bit too taxing on my brain ......

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 29 2021, 10:41 AM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2)
Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving

1. 1:20 Various tyre wear patterns ;
2. 5.00 As a general rule ,a Rear Wheel Drive RWD like Avanza, BMW, Mercedes or trucks would require a toe-in at Front wheels of about 0.5 - 1.0 mm on each side ;
3. 8:12 On Front Wheel Drive FWD like Lancers, Vios, City, VWs Vento/Golf, it generally requires a slight toe-out at Front wheels of say, not more than 1 mm per side like 0.6-0.7 mm ;
4. 11:47 Aggressive drivers of FWD cars should have more toe-outs at Front wheels ;
5. 12:26 Toe-out at Front wheels ,and toe-in at Rear wheels ....(for FWD ?) it is good for the car tracking straight ahead and it doesn't drift left and right whilst driving straight ahead ;
6. 13:30 On FWD cars like Proton Satrias, Peroduas, Vios with a 'possibly inappropriate, according to YS Khong'(my word) toe-in at Front wheels, what is going to happen to the cars ?
   ..... for an open differential car at high speed (of say, at 110 or 120 km/hr) the FWD car would be drifting left and right, and highly unstable ;
7. 14:53 FWD cars should have toe-out at Front wheels. It will be very stable on acceleration and effective in stopping during braking action ;
8. 15:15 Meanwhile, FWD cars should provide toe-in at Rear wheels, if it is adjustable, for more effective stopping (in shorter distance?) and remain steady during braking action ;
9. 16:38 If a FWD car toes-out (too much) at Rear wheels, during braking action the car may be skidding and becomes unstable .....
   Hence it is good for a FWD car to toe-in slightly at Rear wheels ,whilst maintaining a slight toe-out at Front wheels ;
10. 16:53 For RWD cars with slight toe-in at Front wheels ,the Rear wheels should also be toed-in slightly but less(er than a FWD) like 0.1-0.2 mm per side (or zero toes), for more effective/stable braking action;
11. 17:33 For RWD cars, one should toe-in at the Front wheels whilst the Rear wheels at zero toes or slightly toe-in ;
12. 17:40 For FWD cars, one should have toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels ;
13. 17:46 The amount of toes should not be more than 1 mm on each wheel as a general rule, but it is safer to keep it to 0.6-0.8 mm per side ;
14. 18:02 For 4WD cars, always provide toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 31 2021, 03:06 PM