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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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prophetjul
post Apr 29 2020, 07:06 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 29 2020, 12:23 PM)
You quoted me but you don't understand. Tell me, the word of God is inspired from God or from Man? Are you trying to tell people that the mind of God in Heavan is jewish in nature? that Father in Heaven is a Jew? Do you even understand this point? Do you understand what is the meaning "at the core"? Yes I can understand the meaning that God uses jewish settings and I never deny that but do you understand that God is a spirit being his origin is never a jew? Do you understand the meaning of God's word has to be understood base on Who God is, based on his Kingdom which is not Earthly or culturally jewish. Do you understand this?

I did mention there are things that can be understood through Jewish perspective, ie their linguistic definitions but the core understanding what God is saying must be intepreted by what God is trying to say not what a jew would want to say. Do you even understand this difference?

For example, the phrase Christ died for the ungodly (Roman 5:6), that is not a jewish perspective, no culture on earth can understand the way how God thinks.

If you cannot "understand" the point I'm trying to make then the problem lies with your comprehension of what Ive just said above.

Here you go again. A condescending tone again and again.
Putting words where the reply has not. Who said that God was Jewish? Who? The one who started to mention that was YOU.
Your reasoning has no grounds at all.
Did God use Hebrew to reveal His message? Yes or NO? If No, please tell me what spiritual/earthly language did He use?
Do you understand that to get to understanding who God is, someone tried very hard to translate the Hebrew message to English for YOU to comprehend who God is. laugh.gif

Do you understand that Jesus used JEWISH parables to show how God's kingdom is like? 2nd time of typing this.

If the translators did not translate the HEBREW texts into English, you would not understand what God is trying to tell you!
Trying to lead you through this like a 7 year old: God used Jewish prophets to write in Hebrew all His inspired revelations. Its not verbatim. So its all TAINTED with the JEWISH culture whether you like it or not. So to get to what God is saying, you have to interpret it through the JEWISH culture, not ENGLISH culture. Kapish?
The only other question to you would be:
DO YOU ACCEPT THE SCRIPTURES WRITTEN IN HEBREW TO BE INSPIRED BY GOD?
If Yes, then you have to accept the Hebraic nature. If not then you are in trouble.

i cannot understand you because your write up is rather all over the place with unnecessary diversions and inconclusive thoughts.
prophetjul
post Apr 29 2020, 07:32 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 29 2020, 12:23 PM)

Ive already gave you the conclusion on Grace, you have reading problem:

On the matter of Grace I've repeated told you before ......................the Law was until the prophet John

Luke 16:16 (NIV) - "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

This word "The" is there, refering to the Old Covenant Law. But prior to the 10 commandments, before the law was given, The Israelites were given "Grace" in their journey to Mount Sinai. None of them died even though sin against God. Abraham too live before the Law was given.

You cannot use Hebrews 11 to lump everything and conclude, Grace is the dispensation in the OT, because if you read the very last time, it tells you why. They didn't have what we have now, a new covenant that completes God's plan of Salvation.

Using one verse as you seem to like to do to create a doctrine is highly dangerous as many here has pointed out.
You stated one verse and forget about the next.

QUOTE
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


Whats in the next verse?

In Matthew 5
QUOTE
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Is the Law and prophets passed?

The English translation of Luke 16:16 is very poor.
The word 'were' is not found in the Greek texts. The sentence should be written as

The Law and the prophets till John; from that time the kingdom of God is proclaimed .............

OTOH the Law is not contra to grace.So according to you:

Abraham and Isralites were given grace till Mt Sinai. ( Yet they were killed for worshipping the calf)
At the giving of the Law, grace is suddenly withdrawn and they lived under the Law, justified by the Law? (How are they justified?)
David received grace under the Law? HMmmmmmmm Law and grace all mixed up here.

Come John, Grace appears again! YEAHHHH!

Sorry. You are worshipping a chameleon God. If grace was so much better as you seem to indicate, God withdrew a better covenant with Abraham and put in a shoddy covenant with the Israelites! laugh.gif

Your theology is very flawed as well as your hermeneutics.

For me, God is very consistent because God showed grace throughout the ages. The reason is very simple: Grace demonstrates His character of Love. That attribute of God does not change with time.
Similarly the Law demonstrates God's holiness and righteousness. Those attributes of God do not change either.
The Law is still in operation. It is not done away with.
However, now its written on our hearts instead of the tablets of stones.

prophetjul
post Apr 29 2020, 07:34 PM

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Apr 29 2020, 09:35 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: Contain slander from Desmond

prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 08:22 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 29 2020, 09:34 PM)
Unnecesary diversion and inconclusive thoughts? Calling me 7 years old?

I don't agree everything has to be through jewish culture,  some granted yes but not everything.

If you disagree then, Let us just pick one sample to prove you wrong.

The idea behind Romans 5:6-7....

Romans 5:6-7 (KJV) - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Which part of the verse is jewish culture? ie we need to understand jewish culture to understand the meaning of the verse above.

Don't divert and don't change topic, stick to it. WHICH part of it, we need to understand jewish culture to understand Romans 5:6-7?

Go AHEAD, the ball is in your hand.
*
Picking out verses again? That's your skill, is it not?

Romans 9 to 11. As Jewish as you like.
Add in Chap 7 Paul refers back to?
If the translators did not translate the HEBREW texts into English, you would not understand what God is trying to tell you!
Trying to lead you through this like a 7 year old: God used Jewish prophets to write in Hebrew all His inspired revelations. Its not verbatim. So its all TAINTED with the JEWISH culture whether you like it or not. So to get to what God is saying, you have to interpret it through the JEWISH culture, not ENGLISH culture. Kapish?
The only other question to you would be:
DO YOU ACCEPT THE SCRIPTURES WRITTEN IN HEBREW TO BE INSPIRED BY GOD?
7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

All these were written in GREEK, not English. Even written in Greek, they contain Paul's Jewish worldview.

QUOTE
If the translators did not translate the HEBREW texts into English, you would not understand what God is trying to tell you!
Trying to lead you through this like a 7 year old: God used Jewish prophets to write in Hebrew all His inspired revelations. Its not verbatim. So its all TAINTED with the JEWISH culture whether you like it or not. So to get to what God is saying, you have to interpret it through the JEWISH culture, not ENGLISH culture. Kapish?
The only other question to you would be:
DO YOU ACCEPT THE SCRIPTURES WRITTEN IN HEBREW TO BE INSPIRED BY GOD?



Look. If you are goung to pick out verses on its own, you can even make God to be your genie!

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 30 2020, 10:47 AM
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 08:54 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 29 2020, 09:51 PM)
I think I've repeated told you, King David lived under the Law. I never once said King David live under the dispensation of grace. lol. You're the one who seems to be stucked up on this. Seems what you accuse me, really is more of you really.

How were the Israelites judged? Read what happened after the Law was given. They murmured against God and were judged, but during their journey to mount sinai, nobody died. This is just one example.

The Law and the prophet till John. So how is the phrase "till" difficult for you to understand? That still explains the dispensation of the Law. Sorry but your argument is flawed here, using the excuse poor translation does not cut it.

What about the next verse? Read it carefully.

Verse 17
17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matthew 5
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Who is the one qualified to fufill the Law? You mean Christ did not complete the fufillment of the Law?

Acts 13:39 (KJV) - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ has fufilled it, so now is the dispensation of Grace. Good that you mention on what is written in our heart. then by the same token, you also need to accept Christ has finished God's divine work else you contradict yourself.

Hebrews 10

17 Then He adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed.

Good then, it's inline with what I share.  thumbsup.gif

I'm worshipping a Chameleon God? Be careful of what you are saying here. But I will submit to my God, the Lord Bless you.
*
AND I SHOWED YOU DAVID WAS UNDER GRACE UMPTEEN TIMES!

QUOTE
45 which also our fathers having in succession received, did bring in with Joshua, into the possession of the nations whom God did drive out from the presence of our fathers, till the days of David,

46 who found favour before God, and requested to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob;



See how you like to avoid the questions you cannot answer

AND FOR THE UMPTEEN TIME,

HOW WERE THE ISRAELITES AND THE REST OF THE SAGES JUSTIFIED UNDER YOUR "DSIPENSATION OF LAW"?


QUOTE
The Law and the prophet till John. So how is the phrase "till" difficult for you to understand? That still explains the dispensation of the Law. Sorry but your argument is flawed here, using the excuse poor translation does not cut it.

What about the next verse? Read it carefully.

Verse 17
17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matthew 5
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Who is the one qualified to fufill the Law? You mean Christ did not complete the fufillment of the Law?

Acts 13:39 (KJV) - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ has fufilled it, so now is the dispensation of Grace. Good that you mention on what is written in our heart. then by the same token, you also need to accept Christ has finished God's divine work else you contradict yourself.

Hebrews 10

17 Then He adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed.

Good then, it's inline with what I share.  thumbsup.gif

I'm worshipping a Chameleon God? Be careful of what you are saying here. But I will submit to my God, the Lord Bless you.


Reading in English again.

The Law and prophets till John, the kingdom of God is preached...……

Why are you reading as if the Law and the prophets is ended at with John? Because you read with 'were'.
Why should it even end when Jesus said Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Is all fulfilled yet? Are all the OT prophecies fulfilled yet?

And here is the thing about JEWISH understanding of what Jesus is saying about fulfilling of the Law. In Rabbinic understanding fulfilling of the Law is to teach the Law properly . To destroy the Law is to teach it incorrectly like the Pharisees.
That's the reason you see Jesus teaching about the Law in the following chapters. And I have shared this before. Obviosuly you aren't interested as you seem to deem English scriptures were the original texts!

Pickin out a verse to justify the end of the law is just poor hermeneutics as you have demonstrated again and again.
The Law is written in our hearts, no longer on stones.

Heb 8: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And yes, the God you are describing changes His attributes along the way like a chameleon changes colours.
The God described in scriptures does not change His character and attributes.
Grace is the demonstration of HIs Love, compassion and the Law is the demonstration of His holiness and righteousness.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 30 2020, 10:51 AM
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 09:01 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 29 2020, 10:31 PM)
Christian using a degorative words and you have the gumption to label me?

Yankee is a degorative term.

So you're saying you hated so much of the American translation of the Bible, you call them as Yankee?

That's quite high and mighty of you.

=========================================================

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-offensive-to-ca...mericans-Yankee
*
No. See how you are always misinterpreting?
I was going on about the HERETIC Word faith, health and wealth gospel and suddenly you changed this to connection with American translations of the Bible?

You are something else.

And YES, I will be derogatory about the Yankee Word faith heresy.

QUOTE
  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?




This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 30 2020, 10:43 AM
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Apr 30 2020, 10:52 AM)
It just proves again and again that different Protestant groups have different interpretations of the Bible. Unfortunately that comment was deleted by UW even though it's a fact.
*
Romans also have their different interpretations, not just Protestants. Remember protestants came out from you.

You Romans are just so pagan. At least our differences are not major differences most times.
Whereas you Romans have a different gospel and a different godlike Mary.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 30 2020, 11:06 AM
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Apr 30 2020, 11:10 AM)
Once they left, obviously they are no longer Catholic, if that's not obvious to you
*
Thank God for that! Who wants to worship graven idols and transgress against God?
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 01:33 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 30 2020, 12:01 PM)
I see where your confusion lies. You presume just because God gave favour to King David that makes it a dispensation age? That is not the way to intepret the Bible. Besides if you were to ask anyone from Bible college  they will tell you what I'm telling you.

Prophetjul. I'm talking about covenant. Timeline covenant. When the Law was given, that was the covenant cut between God and his people. The timeline was between mount sinai the moment God make a covenant with the Israel even before He wrote the 10 commandments on 2 tablets stone...all the way until John the Baptist being the last represented.

So King David lived under the Old Covenant mosaic law.

I'm sure you know what is old covenant and new covenant? Or have you forgotten this basic bible fact?

The phrase till it is fufilled is not refering to all prophecy but The Law being fufilled in the matter of Justification before God. Read it carefully.

When Jesus mention until it is fufilled it's refering to the Law NOT prophecy.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Read verse 17. Fufilling here does not mean to teach properly. In the Greek it means to complete it or to fufill it in action meaning to comply. From God's point of view fufilling it here refers to justification before Him in being righteous ie to qualify Salvation and in God's standard it has to be perfect.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
No need to be condescending. Your hermeneutics skills is short.
Since you are on Law dispensation I am asking you for the last time

a) Did David receive grace?

b) HOW WERE THE ISRAELITES AND DAVID AND THE REST OF THE SAGES OF HEBREWS 11 JUSTIFIED?

You are splitting hairs between the Law and prophets. laugh.gif
Did Jesus say that only the Law was till John? OR was it the LAW AND THE PROPHETS?
Did Jesus say that only the LAW was satisfied?

QUOTE
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


IN Rabbinic thinking, if you understand that, fulfilling of the Law means to teach it properly. That's the reason Jesus went to exegesis on the Law from Mat 5 to 7. THIS IS JEWISH THINKING, NOT GREEK.

So its only the LAW huh? ARe you trying to change scriptures?
prophetjul
post Apr 30 2020, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 30 2020, 01:04 PM)
My intention for this thread has always been for fellowshipping, encouraging one another in the Lord.

There's history with this prophetjul.

He doesn't seem to agree the idea of fellowshipping but has always coming here maliging what I do, labelling me with all kind of names.

He also attack Yeeck unnecesary.

The whole problem with him and his type is that they are always dogmatic more than reaching out. I've studued him carefully, he is never really trying to reach but puts people down when one don't agree with him.

I don't agree with Yeeck Catholiciem but I wouldn't label him with anything or would call him worshipping a false God. That is between him and God really, not me for me judge.

It has happened for so many years.
*
So talking bad about your brethren? Again? Like you did Desmond? FACEPALM*

Never mind. You can fellowship as you like.
Know HYPO krites?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 30 2020, 01:37 PM
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2020, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(MPIK @ Jun 29 2020, 04:06 PM)
Christianity itself is very tricky and sometimes contradictory in my opinion.

Even the first sentence in the bible already so contradictory and created tons of confusion.

Gen 1:1
Bible version A
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth

Bible version B
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth

See the contradiction? Heavens or heaven?
How many heaven are there really? One heaven or more than one heaven actually?
*
Why read the translated versions?

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2020, 04:20 PM

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QUOTE(MPIK @ Jun 29 2020, 04:17 PM)
So every time you read Hebrew original version?
If English version is not dependable, why we still read it?
Might as well we learn Hebrew and read Hebrew.
*
i read both.

Since i am not a Hebrew expert, i use both to learn and study. Nothing is undependable.

Since you asked, a nice exposition of the word Shamayim

The etymology of "heavens" is interesting, so let's begin with that.

Before the English word there was the Latin Vulgate of "caelum", which is a singular noun. (The Roman sky God was Caelus, based on this word). In the Vulgate its meaning was "[vault] of the sky/heaven", as in the protective shelter. The Christian fathers who accepted this included such illuminaries as Origen ("without doubt firm and solid" - First Homily on Genesis. FC71), Ambrose ("the specific solidity...is meant" - comment on Genesis 1:6 in Hexameron, FC 42.60), and Augustine ("indicate[s] not that it is motionless, but that it is solid" - The Literal Meaning of Genesis. ACW 41.1.61)

Before the Latin word there was the Greek Septuagint which used "οὐρανὸν" (ouranos) which is also a singular noun. It's original meaning was "vaulted expanse". Ouranos was also the name of the Greek God of the sky. The Greeks, like the Jews, also believed in a solid dome overhead. Greeks from Anaximens to Aristotle set it forth a fact that it was solid, and Ptolemy's Almagest explains how the stars were fixed to its underside, like nails.

And before all of these, we have the Hebrew word, which is always in plural and is but a renaming of the overhead protection from the waters above. (see Genesis 1:8 when "rakia" is renamed "shamayim"). Rabbinical writings, such as the Talmud (tractate Pesachim and other places), go into detail trying to determine its thickness, among other attributes of shamayim (which they never considered a place where the souls of the dead reside).

If you have not figured it out yet, "firmament" and "heavens" are the same thing.


The Hebrew Word "shamayim"

“Shamayim” (ShMYM) is almost always translated to “the heavens” (the prefixing “H” adds a “the” to the word, so this page will appear for "heaven" or "heavens" since the use of the prefix is inconsistently used).

It should be noted that this Hebrew word, just like “water” (MYM), is always plural. When translating “water” into English, we sometimes use the singular, and sometimes the plural, depending on English grammar usage, and “heavens” should be given this same consideration.

There are anywhere from one to seven heavens, depending on the ideology (perhaps more). In the plain text, there are 2 instances where it is defined, so one can reasonably hold it as either one or two.

When used in Genesis 1:1, it is referring to the object that will be introduced in the following verse: the upper surface of “the deep [waters]” (what will later become “the upper waters”), which is covered by a layer of darkness. And when used in Genesis 1:8, this same word is referring to the raqia or “firmament”, which is pressed against the under-surface of the upper waters, which, supposedly, can be seen from the land below.

In both cases, it identifies a watery upper-surface/under-surface or body of the upper waters
.
There are two important Midrash stories that explain this.

The first is that “shamayim” (ShMYM) is a contraction of two words: “sham” (ShM) plus “mayim” (MYM), meaning “water is there”. In other words, it is a term to explain the surface of the waters appearing in Genesis 1:2, and the under-surface in verse 1:8 that will be seen from the land below when it is revealed later on and renamed.

The other Midrash is that “shamayim” is a contraction of “aish” (AISh) and “mayim” (MYM), or fire and water. It was held by many, such as the Ramban, that the darkness that lay on the water was a fiery darkness, and so, from this point, “shamayim” is speaking only of verse 1:2, and verse 1:8 is unrelated at all.

Either position works.

It is important to remember that actual “water” is the key component of “heavens”. "Heavens", as used in the Pentateuch, is not a concept, nor another word for "atmosphere" nor a supernatural realm, but either represents the upper surface, the combination of the upper surface and the layer of darkness, or the upper and lower surfaces and the darkness or firmament that presses against them (In verse 1:2, the darkness presses against it, and in verse 1:8, it is the firmament).

And for those who believe in multiple heavens, they can be all three, and more!

Again, we are speaking of physical objects here. I explain more about what the firmament is here.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jun 29 2020, 04:26 PM
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2020, 08:39 AM

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3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2020, 09:54 AM

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DID PAUL WRITE ALL THIRTEEN LETTERS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM?

By Brian Chilton

In the New Testament, thirteen letters are attributed to the apostle Paul. Paul is, of course, the individual who had persecuted the church, but became a Christian missionary after an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus. But, did Paul actually author all thirteen epistles believed to have been penned by him? Some believe that Paul only actually authored seven of the thirteen.

Paul Letters Author

Epistles are ancient letters written to individuals or groups of individuals addressing particular theological issues and/or doctrinal problems. The thirteen letters classically attributed to the apostle Paul are Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. Of the thirteen letters, seven are recognized as being undisputed (that is, without debate). Those seven undisputed letters are Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. But what of the other six (Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus)?

Some scholars have called the disputed six letters of Paul the “deutero-Pauline” epistles.[1] It is believed by some that these letters may have been written by someone who was influenced by Paul’s doctrine and wrote what they thought Paul would have said on certain issues.

Skeptics of the disputed letters hold several reasons for their disbelief. First, they claim that the history presented in the disputed letters do not match what one finds in the book of Acts. For example, Paul leaves Timothy in Ephesus in 1 Timothy 1:3 and leaves Titus in Crete in Titus 1:5. Such events are not found in Acts.

The vocabulary, it is argued, is much different in the disputed letters than in the undisputed letters of Paul. Drake Williams notes that the skeptic argues that “Approximately one third of the vocabulary within the Pastoral Letters is not found anywhere else in Paul’s letters, and over 35 names are not found elsewhere in Paul’s writings. Many of these words, however, can be found within second-century writings (Harrison, Problem).[2]

In addition, skeptics argue that the development of church structure is more advanced in the disputed letters than the undisputed letters; doctrinal issues seem to point towards a later date (including some apparent allusions to Gnosticism); and the stylistic differences between the undisputed and disputed letters all illustrate their cause for dismissing Paul as the author of the disputed texts.

Despite the objections offered, one possesses good reasons for accepting all thirteen letters attributed to Paul as authentic. I have never been convinced that the disputed letters were forged. Here are a few reasons why.

The Appearance of the Apostle’s Name on All the Letters

The first point does not necessarily prove Paul to be the author of the disputed letters. In fact, the authors of the Gnostic second-century letters erroneously attributed them to apostolic origin. Nevertheless, it is quite odd that all thirteen letters would have received approval from those closest to Paul if the letters had not actually been written or dictated by him. The letters are certainly early enough to have been tested for authenticity as many early church leaders quoted from the disputed letters as well as the undisputed letters, as we will discuss a little later.

At times, skeptical claims can be a bit inconsistent when applied to biblical authorship. Some scholars deny the traditional authorship of the Gospels because they are anonymous while also denying the traditional authorship of the Epistles because they are not anonymous. How bizarre!

Differing Circumstances Account for Differing Theological Emphases

It must be remembered that Paul encountered various issues in differing locations. The church of Corinth faced tumultuous circumstances with doctrinal issues and infidelity. Thus, the letters to Corinth would differ from the letters written to Galatia where they were bombarded by individuals who attempted to steer believers away from the idea that the grace of God alone was sufficient for salvation. These differences are recognized among the undisputed letters. So then why would one not account for some differences in emphasis with letters written to individuals like Timothy and Titus, especially if one allows for the idea that Paul wrote the later letters from a prison cell?[3]

The Use of Amanuenses Account for Stylistic Differences

When I first learned the scribal practices of the amanuensis, I realized the stylistic differences in the different Pauline epistles were easily resolved. One may see stylistic differences even among the undisputed letters of Paul for the same reason. An amanuensis was a scribe who penned a letter as the author was dictating the message to him. The amanuensis would read back the letter to the author to ensure the message was as the orator desired. Scholars have noted that amanuenses were often allowed some liberty in the structure of their writing so long as the message was preserved.

In the undisputed letters, one finds evidence of the amanuensis’s involvement. Take Romans, for instance. The letter begins by stating, “Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God” (Romans 1:1).[4] Yet, at the end of the letter, one reads, “I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord” (Romans 16:22). What’s going on here?

Well, it’s simple really. Paul authored the letter while Tertius was the amanuensis. Paul dictated the information to Tertius, who wrote down the message of Paul and read it back to Paul to ensure that it encapsulated the message desired. In my humble opinion, I think the practice was used by the Holy Spirit to make the epistles even better than they would have been if only one hand was involved. Evidences for the amanuensis imprint are found in 1 Corinthians 1:1 and 1 Corinthians 16:21, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 6:21, Colossians 1:1, among many other places.

The Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence

The so-called problem with the historical differences between the disputed epistles and the book of Acts is easily solved when one realizes that Luke did not provide an exhaustive history of the church in his sequel. That is to say, Luke did not document every event that took place in early church history. In like manner, the Gospels do not provide an exhaustive biography of the life of Jesus. As one of my former professors, Dr. R. Wayne Stacy denoted, “The Gospels provide us portraits of Jesus rather than photographs.” I like that analogy. John even admits as much when he writes that “There are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if every one of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written” (John 21:25).

When one examines Acts with the epistles, there is no problem so long as the two do not contradict each other. These differences can easily be dispelled when one acknowledges the intentional gaps in Luke’s history.[5]

Early Church Father Quotations from the Disputed Letters

The early church unanimously accepted all thirteen letters as authentic. Space will not allow a full treatment of this issue. However, let’s look at one disputed letter: Colossians. Early church leaders unanimously endorsed the letter as authentically Pauline. Irenaeus endorsed it in Against Heresies 3.14.1; Tertullian in De Praescr. Haer., 7; Clement of Alexandria in Strom., 1.1; as well as Justin Martyr in Dialogue with Trypho 85.2 and 138.2.

Evidence for Deacons and Elders in Undisputed Letters

Concerning the development of elders and deacons in the church, one must consider the role of leadership in the earliest church. Jesus himself divided his disciples into various groups. He chose seventy-two (or seventy) disciples and sent them out two by two. Of those seventy-two, Jesus had twelve primary disciples. Of those twelve, he chose three to be inner-circle disciples (Peter, James, and John). Therefore, even Jesus established a system for the church in the early going. In Acts 6, the disciples chose seven to serve. These seven are believed by many, including myself, to be the earliest deacons chosen to serve. Thus, with the system set in place by Jesus and the addition of deacons in Acts 6, it is no great leap to implement the offices of elders (i.e.,, pastors) and deacons in the church. Therefore, the idea that the offices of pastor and deacon represents a much later development in church history is greatly overblown.

The Rejection of Pseudonymous Letters by the Early Church (2 Thess. 2:2)

The early church flatly rejected pseudonymous letters. Ironically, 2 Thessalonians (a letter believed by some to be pseudonymous) admonishes believers to “not…be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come” (2 Thessalonians 2:2).

Early church leaders emphasized the authenticity of Christian documents. Tertullian while teaching on his acceptance of complementarianism discredited a letter involving Paul and a woman named Thecla because it was falsely attributed to Paul.

Eusebius tells the story of Serapion. Serapion was the bishop of Antioch. Serapion chided the church at Rhosse in Cilicia for their use of the the apocryphal Gospel of Peter. Serapion wrote, “We brethren, receive both Peter and the other apostles as Christ; but we reject intelligently the writings falsely ascribed to them, knowing that such were not handed down to us.”[6]

Closeness in Proximity

Simply put, individuals closest in proximity to the writing of a document can know with more certainty who actually authored the document than those two-thousand years removed. This is especially true if the veracity of the document is stressed by early readers.

Conclusion

While this article is much longer than I hoped it would be, the importance of establishing the authenticity of Paul’s thirteen letters cannot be overemphasized. Did Paul write all thirteen of the letters attributed to him? Yes. He did with the help of amanuenses. With the points established in this article, one should have no reservation in accepting all thirteen letters. The only letter sometimes attributed to Paul that should be highly questioned for its Pauline origin is the book of Hebrews. No one really knows who wrote the book. However, it is accepted as authentic for reasons we will discuss in a future article. In fact, we will discuss the writers of the Pastoral Epistles next in our series on the authors of the New Testament.

Notes

[1] Drake Williams, “Paul the Apostle, Critical Issues,” The Lexham Bible Dictionary, John D. Barry, et. al., eds (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

[2] Ibid.

[3] The idea that Gnosticism is found in the disputed letters is far-fetched in my opinion.

[4] Unless otherwise noted, all quoted Scripture comes from the Christian Standard Bible(Nashville: Holman, 2017).

[5] By gaps, I do not mean errors. Rather, Luke did not provide an exhaustive history and never intended to do so.

[6] Eusebius, Church History, 6.12.3.

Original Blog Source: http://bit.ly/2vok7wP

https://crossexamined.org/paul-write-thirte...ers-attributed/
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2020, 11:30 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 30 2020, 11:26 AM)
Somebody has pm'ed me regarding the Trinity asking, isn't this contradictory?

If Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God, doesn't that conclude Jesus = Father = Spirit?

Also, doesnt that make it 3 Gods?

First, the Trinity is not a contradiction.

If we say God is 1 in essence and 3 in essence, then that is a contradiction.

A logical contradiction is being A and not A in the same time and in the same relationship.

But the confession is God is one in A and 3 in B, (A = essence, B = person), so it is not a contradiction.

We also confess there is only ONE God, contrary to many claims that this confession is polytheism. God is singular here.

The reason that this tripped so many Christians in history is because there is nothing in the created universe that parallels this truth. Nothing in this world can describe or can be compared to the nature of God.

Everytime you try to compare it to anything, you automatically fail to capture the nature of God with words.

This is unique to God alone.

More reading from the Westminster's confession of faith, Chapter 2, 3rd section:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Problem arises when we try to describe God in the context of creation limits. Our minds are finite.

We can only describe God as He describes Himself in His word.
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2020, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 30 2020, 11:43 AM)
Yeah, I've seen people describing God as ice-water-vapour, light-heat-wave, and one of the most cringe-worthy one, nescafe 3 in 1. sweat.gif

God is not nescafe sweat.gif
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The more we try to describe Him with finite words, the more trouble we will get into. sweat.gif
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2020, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Jun 30 2020, 12:35 PM)
.
Who ordained you as leader of this Christian Fellowship or Church thread.? ....... TS =/= leader.

Tak tau malu.
.
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I don't think UW is the leader here.
He's just moderating this thread since no one else wants to do it.

prophetjul
post Jul 2 2020, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 2 2020, 10:57 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


God's Holy Spirit will teach you how to overcome sin. We think God's old covenant commandments will help us to be holy but that is not how new covenant Salvation works. What I mean is this.

The law will tell you Do not covet, but does not tell you to give, The Holy Spirit does that, sometime He will tell you to give to help certain people., God's Law tells you, Do not  commit adultery but does not tell you how to love your wife. The Holy Spirit will teach you that.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


God Bless

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QUOTE
Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.


QUOTE
9 Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.

10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.

11 Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?


And read the Song of Solomon! laugh.gif

Hint: Who inspired the writing of the scriptures?

God bless.
prophetjul
post Jul 2 2020, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 2 2020, 11:18 AM)
The Song of solomon is more on between the Lord and you. The wife here is symbolically his people.
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How can it be just symbolic if its so graphic??????????? laugh.gif

QUOTE
Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.

3 Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.

4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.

5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.



prophetjul
post Jul 2 2020, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 2 2020, 11:18 AM)
The Song of solomon is more on between the Lord and you. The wife here is symbolically his people.

and the phrase

"Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour." comes from Ecclesiastes 4 which talks about the Man and his brother or son.

God Bless.
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Do you normally lie down with your brother or son?



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