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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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Roman Catholic
post Oct 10 2019, 04:29 PM

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Thanks be to God for allowing the Holy Bible to be translated into the English language from its original written language, in order that an uneducated person like me can understand. As long as this poor man call and our Lord answers my call, I think that should be alright.

I have to say that I do admire others that go to the extreme in learning Hebrew or Greek, just to understand the Holy Bible in its original form. Well, as long as our God answers all of our call in times of distress, praise be to God.
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 10 2019, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Oct 10 2019, 04:29 PM)
Thanks be to God for allowing the Holy Bible to be translated into the English language from its original written language, in order that an uneducated person like me can understand. As long as this poor man call and our Lord answers my call, I think that should be alright.

I have to say that I do admire others that go to the extreme in learning Hebrew or Greek, just to understand the Holy Bible in its original form. Well, as long as our God answers all of our call in times of distress, praise be to God.
*
Note of interest, google William Tyndale.
yeeck
post Oct 10 2019, 05:11 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 10 2019, 04:26 PM)
dude, don't contradict what you're saying here.

When you say sinners occasionally became more guilty by the knowledge of the law, that is implying sinner having more conscious of guilt not unless you're agreeing with me that the law will cause them to commit more sin.

So which is it now? smile.gif
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Nope, I will not agree with you saying that the 10 Commandments causes them to commit more sin. Christians know the 10 Commandments, which is the most basic summary of God's moral teaching, which is even summed up further by Christ into two because the 10 Commandments in essence first 3 relates to God, the subsequent 7 relates to our neighbours. "He that is dead is justified from sin" (Rom 6:7)

St Paul having told the Romans they must be dead to sin, lead a new life. He now encourages them to it, by telling them, that what is required of them is not above their human strength, as it is assisted by those graces which God offers them, and which they have received, i.e. by being baptised in His death.

"But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin but have obeyed from the heart unto that form of doctrine into which you have been delivered. 18Being then freed from sin, we have been made servants of justice."

14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Some of the Roman Christians were formerly Jews observing the the Mosaic law., but now all of them are under grace, or the law of grace, where they may find pardon for their sins. Does it say anything about ignore the 10 Commandments? If yes, how could the apostle tell them "12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." If they do not know the 10 Commandments how would they know what is sin and what is not?

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5)

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. (Rom 5)
Here it says the law entered, not the one given. The law were not given purposely for sin to abound; but that it so happened, through man's perversity, taking occasion of sinning more, from the prohibition of sin.

So are you still saying the 10 Commandments are not relevant anymore? Causes people to sin more? To make an analogy, it's like you are saying the traffic rules are given to cause drivers to break them more. Perverse indeed.
yeeck
post Oct 10 2019, 05:15 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Oct 10 2019, 04:20 PM)
You have a tendency to cut and paste without links!  biggrin.gif

No. Nowadays we have Hebrew scholars who look at the sentence syntax and idioms, etc in the gospels, and some of them do not make any sense in Greek.
However when they are translated back into Hebrew, it all makes sense.

What's an 'evil eye' in Greek?  Nothing.
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But which book? Certainly not all the books?
SUSAlan K.
post Oct 10 2019, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 10 2019, 01:58 PM)
That's why I asked the simple questions which you are evading because I want to know the practical aspect of this statement.

1) Are the 10 Commandments irrelevant now?
2) Does the 10 commandments causes you to sin?

Supposing that we both agree God is the one who grants grace to the believer, I'm still waiting for your answers to the above.
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1. No.

2. No.

I have seen an end to all perfection, but Your commandment is without limit. Oh, how I love Your law! All day long it is my meditation. Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always...
-Psalm 119.97

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.- Matt 5:18

Okay? you happy now?!


SUSAlan K.
post Oct 10 2019, 06:30 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 10 2019, 10:59 AM)
2CHRONICLES.16:7-13 (NKJV) = Hanani’s Message to Asa

7

Illness and Death of Asa

11 Note that the acts of Asa, first and last, are indeed written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel. 12 And in the thirty-ninth year of his reign, Asa became diseased in his feet, and his malady was severe; yet in his disease he did not seek the Lord, but the physicians.

13 So Asa rested with his fathers; he died in the forty-first year of his reign.
.

MARK.5:25-34 = 25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians[/COLOR=blue]. She ha

snip*
_______ _______

As per MATTHEW.9:10-13, [COLOR=red]all Jews and Gentiles are born sinners and need the Great Physician to save them from hell when they die because of their inherited Adam's Original Sin - ROMANS.5:12 = believers become Christians.

But for such new Christians' remaining lives on earth before death and salvation actually occurs, Word/Law-abiding Christians who do not commit sins leading to death, especially Jewish Christians, do not need doctors or physicians for hospital treatment of serious illnesses/diseases, as per the 1st 2 Bible quotes above, because God will bless them with a good and long life on earth.
No one is perfect = even law-abiding Christians may occasionally commit unintentional or negligent sins not leading to death = may occasionally need to see a General Practioner doctor for treatment of a non-serious illness. IOW, they are not habitual sinners/law-breakers.
....... There is something very Spirit'ually wrong with a Christian wrt trust/faith in God and His Word/Law, when he/she has to see GP doctors very often or see hospitalization doctors for treatment of serious illnesses a few times, eg spiritual-baby Gentile Christians who never grew up or refused to grow up, eg because they are ignorant of God's laws/words.. .......


1COR.11:30-32 = 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
.

DEUT.28: = Curses on Disobedience

snip *
*
LoL are you serious??!! laugh.gif i know a few faithful Christians that have died early. In their 30's, early 50's, etc. Their testimonies are/were outstanding. I know a young lady in her early 30's, who's suffering from a relapse. She clings on to Jesus so closely. She grew up in Sunday school. All the above people are cancer victims.

Your sect of Christianity is certainly a very strange one. You a 7th-day Adventist or something?


Also, do not misuse Romans 5:12. Where does the Bible say we inherited Adam's ORIGINAL SIN? Ape mende ORIGINAL SIN tu hah?

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. - Deut 24:16

Yet you may ask, ‘Why shouldn’t the son bear the iniquity of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statutes, he will surely live. 20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him. - Ezekiel 18:20

Everybody is responsible for their own sinfulness. We don't go to hell because of Adam's sin. We go to hell because WE choose to sin individually.

If i may add, i do not believe babies who die in infancy go to hell. Toddlers and the like.

The doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN is a sacred cow for people like you, but it's just a "theological construct".


QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 10 2019, 12:41 PM)
That is not right wrt God creating Man in His image with moral consciousness built-in. .......

GENESIS.2:16-17 = . 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The moral consciousness of Man only came into him when Adam broke God's 1st-ever commandment/law by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

On top of that, this Original Sin caused Man to experience spiritual death(= bound for hell)and to be further cursed by God at GENESIS.3:14-19, eg Man has to suffer spiritual enmity with Satan = Satan can occasionally plant sinful/evil thoughts in his heart and mind, eg immoral sexual lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fears/worries, doubts, etc, ... in order to get him to voluntarily commit sins, especially for him to commit grave sins and die young so that Satan/demons can eat his decaying body as it returns to dust.


you are..............borderline mad!

ROMANS.7: = 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.


In general, people without God's Law, even though they have moral consciousness or the knowledge of good and evil, are carnal and will often fall into Satan's testing and temptations, go and commit sins or lawlessness willfully = hence we have a mostly rotten world since GENESIS.4. For Christians, the right antidote or medicine for this spiritual problem is as per MATTHEW.4:1-11 = Jesus Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit of God, overcame Satan's testing and temptations with the Word of God quoted from the Old Testament, and not with moral consciousness = Word/Law-abiding Christians walking in the Spirit who do not wallow in the mud of sins/law-breaking like pigs.

Should the Church be without any laws/rules and regulations/order of service, and just rely on the Christian members' moral consciousness to do what is good.?
Should a country be without any laws and just rely on her citizens' moral consciousness to do what is good.?

.

1COR.6:9-11 = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

The apostle Paul stated that many new Gentile Christian adults(= Corinthian Christians) were formerly serious law-breakers/sinners when they were carnal and lawless Gentiles. .He warned them not to return to their former sins/law-breaking and continue in the sins. If they did, they would have lost their inheritance in the kingdom of God, eg if a Gentile Christian today willfully return to the sin of homosexual-sex and sodomy unrepentantly, he will likely get HIV+, and then lose faith and salvation while dying horribly from AIDS and/or other STDs. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - HEB.10:26-31.
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Ok, sorry you are not just borderline, you are a complete nut case! biggrin.gif
yeeck
post Oct 10 2019, 06:35 PM

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QUOTE(Alan K. @ Oct 10 2019, 06:30 PM)
The doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN is a sacred cow for people like you, but it's just a "theological construct".
Ok, sorry you are not just borderline, you are a complete nut case!  biggrin.gif
*
Original sin is accepted by many Protestant groups too.

Original sin in Protestantism
Although Martin Luther held the view that scripture alone should be the basis of Christian doctrine, the second article in Lutheranism's Augsburg Confession, much like the Catholic tradition, accepted the basic Augustinian formula of original sin:

Since the fall of Adam all men who are born according to the course of nature are conceived and born in sin. That is, all men are full of evil lust and inclinations from their mothers’ wombs and are unable by nature to have true fear of God and true faith in God. Moreover, this inborn sickness and hereditary sin is truly sin and condemns to the eternal wrath of God all those who are not born again through Baptism and the Holy Spirit.[2]

Luther and Calvin agreed that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception. Man is thus completely depraved, and only God's grace, through faith in Christ, can save him. Later, the Methodist Church, tended to see a greater role for human free will in the process of salvation and spiritual growth, but nevertheless upheld the idea that: "Original sin standeth not in the [mere] following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness…."[3]

The Radical Reformation, including Anabaptists and Baptists, adopted a less strict notion of original sin in rejecting the tradition of infant baptism. By insisting on the principle of believer's baptism, the radical reformers tended to imply that God would not doom young children to Hell. Thus, humans were not necessarily so depraved as to merit damnation from birth, a very different view from Augustine's.

Several Restoration Movement churches of the Second Great Awakening not only rejected infant baptism but overtly denied the notion of original sin, believing that men and women are personally responsible only for the sins that they themselves commit. However, many Restoration churches and their members do believe that Adam's sin resulted in a depraved human nature—that is, in a tendency to sin—even though individuals are not guilty of Adam's sin.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/...n_Protestantism
SUSAlan K.
post Oct 10 2019, 06:39 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 10 2019, 02:24 AM)
[i] Please elaborate on what is not right.

Trusting in Jesus Christ saves us from hell (= inherit eternal life in the kingdom of heaven) when we die = resurrection or rapture, then live 1,000 years with Christ(= God-in-the-flesh) on a new earth before finally meeting God in His true form(EZEK.1, REV.4) in His kingdom of heaven.

snip*
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secret rapture? 7 years tribulation? literal millennial kingdom? then only Heaven? how about bringing back temple sacrifices AFTER the Cross?

You can't even get basic Christian doctrine right, & you come in here teaching the Bible?

premillennialism dispensationalism is pseudo Christianity.

preterism amillennialism is solid biblical teaching.


Anyway, whether you are 7th-day or Katolik, a good day to you.
SUSTheRant
post Oct 10 2019, 08:15 PM

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Oct 11 2019, 08:14 AM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: Do not judge

SUSAlan K.
post Oct 10 2019, 08:20 PM

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Oct 11 2019, 08:14 AM
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SUSTheRant
post Oct 10 2019, 08:29 PM

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Oct 11 2019, 08:15 AM
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SUSafretils P
post Oct 10 2019, 09:54 PM

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SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 10 2019, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(unknownwarrior)
How does one know? Since the beginning of time when God created Man in his image, that comes together with moral conscious built in. Even before the 10 commandment was given, Man and woman already know what is wrong, what is fear, etc.


QUOTE(lurkingaround)
That is not right wrt God creating Man in His image with moral consciousness built-in. .......

GENESIS.2:16-17 = . 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The moral consciousness of Man only came into him when Adam broke God's 1st-ever commandment/law by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

.
QUOTE(unknownwarrior)
No, that is where you are wrong. Before adam took the fruit, God already told Him of what is wrong with eating that one forbidden fruit. Adam fully understood that.

.
QUOTE(lurkingaround)
GENESIS.3:6-7 (NKJV) = 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

The Word of God says you are wrong. Adam only knew that human nakedess was evil/bad(= unlike the good or clothed image of God) after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not before Adam took the fruit.
....... IOW, Adam only gained moral consciousness of good and evil only after he took the fruit, not before.
.
QUOTE(unknownwarrior)
Erm Nope. they fully understood what was said by God. they knew it would be wrong.

Genesis 3:2-3 (NIV)
…2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’

Err Nope. Adam and Eve only knew it would be wrong because God had said His 1st-ever commandment to Adam, ie GENESIS.2:16-17 = 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” They knew not because of any built-in moral consciousness when they were created by God. They knew this commandment from God but they did not know the reason behind it because they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. Same reason they did not know that their nakedness was evil/bad, unlike the fully-clothed God or His image.

Again the Word of God says you are wrong, .......


GENESIS.3:22 = 22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Good day.
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 11 2019, 01:01 AM

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QUOTE(Alan K)
Also, do not misuse Romans 5:12. Where does the Bible say we inherited Adam's ORIGINAL SIN? Ape mende ORIGINAL SIN tu hah?

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. - Deut 24:16

Yet you may ask, ‘Why shouldn’t the son bear the iniquity of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statutes, he will surely live. 20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him. - Ezekiel 18:20

Everybody is responsible for their own sinfulness. We don't go to hell because of Adam's sin. We go to hell because WE choose to sin individually.

If i may add, i do not believe babies who die in infancy go to hell. Toddlers and the like.

The doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN is a sacred cow for people like you, but it's just a "theological construct".

ROMANS.5:12-15 (NKJV) = Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
.

1COR.15:21-22 & 45 = 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

.
EXODUS.20:4-6 = 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
_______ _______

ROMANS.5:12-15, 1COR.15:21-22 & 45 show very clearly there is Adam's Original Sin which every of his descendants has inherited = spiritual death = bound for hell when they die = they need a 2nd Adam or Christ to save them from hell.
.
EXODUS.20:4-6 says that the sin of idolatry committed by the father against God will befall on the children/sons down to the 4th generation.
....... DEUT.24:16, EZEK.18:20 about fathers and sons bearing their own sins were likely referring to sins against others/neighbors like murder, adultery, stealing, etc, and not referring to sins against God.
.
.

Btw, did your cancer-stricken Christian friends buy health or life insurance.? I believe God does not look too kindly on His people who trust or rely on insurance more than Him, eg Job and his wife were striken with sicknesses because he had ignorantly tried to buy prosperity insurance from God to cover for his sons' probable sins/evil-deeds - JOB.1:5 & 3:25. So sad. sad.gif

SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 11 2019, 07:37 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 10 2019, 08:15 AM)
This is where you misunderstand as proven right what I said the 1st time, people put their words into my mouth.

You think when I say look away = go ahead to sin.

How does one know? Since the beginning of time when God created Man in his image, that comes together with moral conscious built in. Even before the 10 commandment was given, Man and woman already know what is wrong, what is fear, etc.

And as written in Hebrews 10:15-16, same thing.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them

after those days, declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their hearts

and inscribe them on their minds.”b


I do think every Christians already know the 10 commandments. Even unbelievers have heard of it. So to say how to know is really a misnomer.
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HEBREWS.8:7-13 (NKJV) = A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
_______ _______

We have to cross-reference HEB.10:15-16 with HEB.8:7-13 to get the true interpretation and correct context.
....... God made His Old Covenant with the Jews through Moses. Then God originally made His New Covenant with the Jews of the house of Israel and Judah through Jesus Christ, and not with the Gentiles. The Jews were already well-versed with His laws/commandments, not with the Gentiles. The New Covenant was later extended to the Gentiles through apostle Paul.

So, "My laws" at HEBREWS above referred to the 613 laws of Moses Law as applied to the Jews of the house of Israel and Judah, and not just the well-known 10 Commandments or built-in moral consciousness as applied to later Gentile believers.

For Gentile Christians, God had lovingly exempted them from the burdensome parts of Moses Law or His laws at ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25, ROMANS.14:1-4, eg they did not have to be circumcised, eat only kosher/clean foods, etc. God required them to begin their new born-again spiritual babes-in-Christ lives by keeping just 4 simple, non-burdensome or essential laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animal sacrifice, foods offered to idols and committing sexual immorality. Thereafter, they should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws of God, especially morality laws, eg the 10 Commandments, DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9, etc. This was how God implanted His laws into the hearts and minds of most new Gentile Christians adults.

In comparison, having easily implanted His laws, God required new Jewish Christians like the 12 apostles, to continue to keep His laws, as many of the 613 laws as possible, because they were not a burden to them.

Before conversion, most Gentiles do not know the actual 10 Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17, even though they may have heard about it.


ROMANS.11:16-24 said that the Gentiles had been the branch of a wild olive tree that was grafted into the Jews' branch of a natural olive tree; and warned that Gentile Christians could be cut off from the grafted wild branch if they did not continue in His goodness = they continued in Satan's evilness or lawlessness - cf; 1COR.6:9-11.

It is common sense that God could easily implant His laws into the hearts and mind of believing Jews, compared to believing Gentiles because most Gentiles had led wild or lawless lives from childhood - cf; 2TIM.3:14-17. It is false to say that God can easily implant His laws into the hearts and mind of new Gentile Christians because they had been born with moral consciousness and the 10 Commandments is well known among the Gentile public.

.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 10 2019, 08:15 AM)
I do think every Christians already know the 10 commandments. Even unbelievers have heard of it. So to say how to know is really a misnomer. When scripture says that 10 commandments = Ministry of death, basically, what God is saying, you will NEVER be able to justify yourself in being righteous by his laws because God's law was never design to make anyone holy or to save them. But the reverse, the more you try to adhere to it, trespasses will abound even more..meaning the more you try the more you will end up sinning.
Romans 3:20 (KJV) - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Am I saying God's law = Sin?

No. God's law is holy but it becomes death for anyone who thinks they can self justify thought it because God's standard is just too high.

People just forget, our righteousness is as dirty as a women sanitary napkin.
Read this through and you'll know what I say is correct.
Romans 7:7-25

God’s Law Is Holy

7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.

12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

Struggling with Sin

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

What Romans 7:8 is saying, Sin is only alive through God's law and not anywhere else.  (1 Corinthians 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.)

Look at verse 25!

That is why I say...look away from OT God's law and look to Christ.
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ROMANS.5:12-21 = Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Again, ROMANS.7:25 has to be cross-referenced back to ROMANS.5:12-21, in order to get the true interpretation, ie Man could only be saved from hell or spiritual death that was caused by Adam's Original Sin, by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and not by keeping the Law.

GAL.3:24 said that the Law only served to bring the Jews to Christ for salvation through justification by faith. IOW, the Law is useless when it comes to salvation or if a person wants to be saved from hell when he/she dies. But this fact about salvation does not mean that the Law has been destroyed or done away with by Jesus Christ because the Law is still needed to help guide a Christian's remaining life on earth, especially for God to implant His non-burdensome laws into the heart and mind of the new Gentile Christian, as per HEB.8:10-11.
.

We need to differentiate between involuntary sinning-in-thoughts and voluntary sinning-in-deeds. Eg of the former = immoral thoughts/desires of sexual lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fear/worry, doubt, etc. Eg of the latter = murder, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, etc. The former sin may lead to or bear fruit into the latter sins.The spiritual source of the involuntary former sin is Satan through the resultant curse of Adam's Original Sin.
....... The former involuntary sinning-in-thoughts results in Man being hell-bound or spiritual death after physical death. The latter voluntary sinning-in-deeds results in being cursed by God with a calamitous, sad and short life on earth. The cure for both sin-problems is the Word(= including His laws/commandments) or Jesus Christ.


This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Oct 13 2019, 10:43 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2019, 08:13 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 10 2019, 05:11 PM)
Nope, I will not agree with you saying that the 10 Commandments causes them to commit more sin. Christians know the 10 Commandments, which is the most basic summary of God's moral teaching, which is even summed up further by Christ into two because the 10 Commandments in essence first 3 relates to God, the subsequent 7 relates to our neighbours. "He that is dead is justified from sin" (Rom 6:7)

St Paul having told the Romans they must be dead to sin, lead a new life. He now encourages them to it, by telling them, that what is required of them is not above their human strength, as it is assisted by those graces which God offers them, and which they have received, i.e. by being baptised in His death.

"But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin but have obeyed from the heart unto that form of doctrine into which you have been delivered. 18Being then freed from sin, we have been made servants of justice."

14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Some of the Roman Christians were formerly Jews observing the the Mosaic law., but now all of them are under grace, or the law of grace, where they may find pardon for their sins. Does it say anything about ignore the 10 Commandments? If yes, how could the apostle tell them "12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." If they do not know the 10 Commandments how would they know what is sin and what is not?

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5)

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. (Rom 5)
Here it says the law entered, not the one given. The law were not given purposely for sin to abound; but that it so happened, through man's perversity, taking occasion of sinning more, from the prohibition of sin.

So are you still saying the 10 Commandments are not relevant anymore? Causes people to sin more? To make an analogy, it's like you are saying the traffic rules are given to cause drivers to break them more. Perverse indeed.
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Don't side track. You seem to contradict yourself a lot. When you like to claim others of interpretation problem, seems like you're the one trying very hard to make what Romans 5:20 is not saying.

Romans 5:20 (KJV) - Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

It is what it is, the word sin there in the Greek is Harmatia which means missing the mark (action).

It is not sinner having guilt of sin and neither is the word entered differs from the one given in mount sinai. It is NOT referring to any other laws but the law of the OT. It is the very same sin that talks about the fall of Man. Don't believe me? Read the whole references from Romans 5:12-21.

If you are ever so bold to think you can change the meaning of God's word, then do tell all of us in here, the phrase entered in refers to which law? go ahead answer that.

Besides, what you said on Romans 6:14 (KJV) 14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Testify this to be true. Sin is only empowered under law. The word for in the Greek = Gar which basically means "Because", meaning don't bound yourself to it.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 11 2019, 09:08 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2019, 08:18 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 10 2019, 11:01 PM)
.

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QUOTE(unknownwarrior)
Erm Nope. they fully understood what was said by God. they knew it would be wrong.

Genesis 3:2-3 (NIV)
…2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’

Err Nope. Adam and Eve only knew it would be wrong because God had said His 1st-ever commandment to Adam, ie GENESIS.2:16-17 = 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” They knew not because of any built-in moral consciousness when they were created by God. They knew this commandment from God but they did not know the reason behind it because they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. Same reason they did not know that their nakedness was evil/bad, unlike the fully-clothed God or His image.

Again the Word of God says you are wrong, .......


GENESIS.3:22 = 22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Good day.
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You do understand the meaning of right and wrong vs good evil and the difference of it?

They understood that it is wrong to eat, they knew they would die. Maybe I can paraphrase this, if God told them if they cut themselves with sharp object and told them they will bleed, that is what they understood. Reason is another matter altogether, though I understand what you're trying to say. If you want to claim they were too innocent to know what is what, I would beg to differ because Adam was brought by God to see what he would name each creature created. That shows Adam understand what was ask from God and wasn't just a passive robotic don't know what is what.

Prior to the fall, I believe they were not truly naked in a sense, they were covered with God's glory.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 11 2019, 08:47 AM
prophetjul
post Oct 11 2019, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 10 2019, 05:15 PM)
But which book? Certainly not all the books?
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I mentioned above.....at least the gospels were written originally in Hebrew.
Epistles, not so sure.

Certainly not written in Latin! biggrin.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2019, 08:46 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 11 2019, 07:37 AM)
HEBREWS.8:7-13 (NKJV) = A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
_______ _______

We have to cross-reference HEB.10:15-16 with HEB.8:7-13 to get the true interpretation and correct context.
....... God made His Old Covenant with the Jews through Moses. Then God originally made His New Covenant with the Jews of the house of Israel and Judah through Jesus Christ, and not with the Gentiles. The Jews were already well-versed with His laws/commandments, not with the Gentiles. The New Covenant was later extended to the Gentiles through apostle Paul.

So, "My laws" at HEBREWS above referred to the 613 laws of Moses Law as applied to the Jews of the house of Israel and Judah, and not just the well-known 10 Commandments or built-in moral consciousness as applied to later Gentile believers.

For Gentile Christians, God had lovingly exempted them from the burdensome parts of Moses Law or His laws at ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25, ROMANS.14:1-4, eg they did not have to be circumcised, eat only kosher/clean foods, etc. God required them to begin their new born-again spiritual babes-in-Christ lives by  keeping just 4 simple, non-burdensome or essential laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animal sacrifice, foods offered to idols and committing sexual immorality. Thereafter, they should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws of God, especially morality laws, eg the 10 Commandments, DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9, etc. This was how God implanted His laws into the hearts and minds of most new Gentile Christians adults.

In comparison, having easily implanted His laws, God required new Jewish Christians like the 12 apostles, to continue to keep His laws, as many of the 613 laws as possible, because they were not a burden to them.

Before conversion, most Gentiles do not know the actual 10 Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17, even though they may have heard about it.
ROMANS.11:16-24 said that the Gentiles had been the branch of a wild olive tree that was grafted into the Jews' branch of a natural olive tree; and warned that Gentile Christians could be cut off from the grafted wild branch if they did not continue in His goodness = they continued in Satan's evilness or lawlessness - cf; 1COR.6:9-11.

It is common sense that God could easily implant His laws into the hearts and mind of believing Jews, compared to believing Gentiles because most Gentiles had led wild or lawless lives from childhood - cf; 2TIM.3:14-17. It is false to say that God can easily implant His laws into the hearts and mind of new Gentile Christians because they had been born with moral consciousness and the 10 Commandments is well known among the Gentile public.

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That is not true. Paul rebuked on the matter of circumcision of them still trying to adhere to one of the 613 laws. Where do you get your theology from?

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post Oct 11 2019, 08:49 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 11 2019, 07:37 AM)
But this fact about salvation does not mean that the Law has been destroyed or done away with by Jesus Christ because  the Law is still needed to help guide a Christian's remaining life on earth, especially for God to implant His non-burdensome laws into the heart and mind of the new Gentile Christian, as per HEB.8:10-11.
.

We need to differentiate between involuntary sinning-in-thoughts and voluntary sinning-in-deeds. Eg of the former = immoral thoughts/desires of sexual lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fear/worry, doubt, etc. Eg of the latter = murder, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, etc. The former sin may lead to or bear fruit into the latter sins.The spiritual source of the involuntary former sin is Satan through the resultant curse of Adam's Original Sin.
....... The former involuntary sinning-in-thoughts results in Man being hell-bound or spiritual death after physical death. The latter voluntary sinning-in-deeds results in being cursed by God with a calamitous, sad and short life on earth. The cure for both sin-problems is the Word(= including His laws/commandments) or Jesus Christ.{/I]
*
I don't agree. You need to study more for the purpose and the design of God's law. as to what I'm arguing with Yeeck.

As for Guidance on morality of course we don't transgress against what is written in the 10 commandment but my point we no longer look to it as a point of justification. Why? because it was never design for that but the opposite. With that being said, we need to look away from it

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 11 2019, 09:48 AM

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