Thank you for the term. Yes - that's the term.

I'm curious, what did lurkingaround say to me?

Yeah maybe I misunderstood what he meant.

What I meant was without a proper skill to interpret sciptures, anybody can make any text mean anything.

I see christians do that all the time, especially in this thread..

What he said is not important, he seem to throw verses at people, fault finding all the time.

I agree whole heartedly with you, God's words cannot mean something it doesn't say. But there is something I wanted to say with regards to this.

Jesus have repeatedly said...He is not of this world, meaning He doesn't originate from this world and Jesus also repeatedly said; his kingdom is not of the world's kingdom. Jesus also said Whoever has seen Him also has seen the Father.

So it reason to understand Our Father in Heaven is not Jewish. Though Jesus was born as a Jew but his origin is not Jewish, He was born by the power of God's Holy Spirit, originally a spirit being, who was always God and never a Jew before the virgin birth. There is a reason why God chose Israel and I don't believe they were chosen because God's pattern of thought is Jewish origin or Jewish way of thinking.

I find it uncomfortable the saying God's word must be understood in historical, cultural, lingustic and contextual intepretation of jewish understanding because it can fall dangerously back to mere human intepretation rather than by God's spirit.

Though I perfectly understand why we need to look at the Jewish settings in understanding God's word (some granted) but I think we need to understand God's word by understanding God as He and His Kingdom's perspective as per originally Heaven's perspective which is not Jewish's origin at the core.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Apr 28 2020, 10:54 AM

Let me explain why I think it's dangerous for people to think that the bible is a love letter to them.

I see this going on all the time to Christians around me.

Let's take Jeremiah 29:11, the most misused bible verse I can think of.



Many pastors have used this to preach that God is going to solve all your problems and give you a wonderful life. I myself have heard this kind of sermons probable half a dozen times in the past year alone.

If you read the text in context, God was talking to the Israelite exiles in babylonia, it is a promise that God is going to rescue them one day.

If you are not an Israelite living at that time, there is no reason that this text will anyhow apply to you.

Yet this is one of the most popular bible verse that Christians go to, and false teachers use to tickle the ears of those.

Not every verse in the bible is talking to you.

Hmm without going through the whole bible and making a sweeping generalisation of all the texts, I just want to say in general, the objective meaning of a text must be read in a way how the intended audience understood it at that time.

When God spoke to the Jews, He had to speak it in a way that a jew would understand. If He had spoken His revelation in say chinese or tamil, using idioms and parables, how could the jews understand anything.

I think it would be right to look at the entire sermon of what was preached to judge fairly. Too often we see negative criticism thrown on the internet against pastors that are selective snippet of what was said.

If God does not give you hope in life or if you believe God will not involve himself in your troubles of life, then where do you place your hope then?

Same thing I would ask of you, if God's truth is something that's confine only to Jewish culture, how do you approach a Chinese or a Tamil in the sharing the Gospel when the person say it's not relevant to his culture and in the person's defense it's just a jewish religion, doesn't apply to him or her?

I'm not saying that God does'nt give hope, but the hope promised is in the afterlife.

It can be damaging to Christians if they believe that everything will be good in this life, no sickness, no pain.

I have seen my friends dying of diseases while believing in a false hope that God is going to heal them.

But biblical hope is that we can rejoice even when we are suffering and in pain.

I barely hear pastors preach pain and suffering except in the Reformed community.

No, I'm not saying the truth is confined in the jewish culture.

Truth can be translated to any languages by a skilled person.

But the person needs to first understand hebrew.

Remember the muslim guy aral who came in demanding to know where did Jesus claim he is God?

Despite showing him many times Jesus claimed to be I AM, he doesn't understand what is the significance of it.

Any jew will tell you that's the sacred name of God.

But meaning can be translated to any language so people can understand the text.

I disagree.

Why do you need hope in heaven when it's already heaven?

If truly God's proclaimation of hope is only in heaven, there's no need for Him to minister the people on earth, He should just let them continue to suffer as they were.

For me it's not right to use death as something to negate what God promise because everyone has their beginning and end in the book of life so how death come would not matter. This is how I divide where death and God's promise is concern.

I don't know why we always see death as something diminishing as if life is over.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Apr 28 2020, 12:19 PM

The problem with Aral is that, he was selective in picking Jesus word, meaning he pick and choose whichever that suits his religion pov.

Example: Jesus said he will die and rose again..Jesus own word yet he challenge it saying how can God die, it's a problem inconsistency. He agree and disagree of what Jesus says, might as well for him not to say to hear what Jesus says.

So you believe that Jesus already brought heaven to earth?

I think the kingdom now theology (or dominionism) is an error. We can argue about it all day but nobody can demonstrate all christians live a long and healthy and good life.

Perhaps let me recommend you a great book by RC Sproul. Excellent book.

https://www.ligonier.org/store/surprised-by...ring-hardcover/

I believe God is glorified even when we are sick and dead.

.
JOHN.16: = The Work of the Holy Spirit

5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
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HEB.4: = The Word Discovers Our Condition

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
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JOHN.13: = 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”

8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”

Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”
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JOHN.15:3 = 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
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JOHN.6:63 = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
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MATT.4:4 = 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 29 2020, 11:24 AM

Firstly, No. nothing to what you are implying.

Yes God promise hope and future but doesn't mean there will not be trouble. Jesus clearly said we will have trouble as Christians in this world because till this day, the devil still seeking whom he may devour. If any Christians can be easily devoured, the devil don't have to seek, just easy picking anytime anyday. Hope you get me. It defeats the purpose to say hope is only for heaven. It's already heaven, what hope do you need there?

But fact remains, God uttered the word hope and future because there are people God has watched over that the devil find hard to devour.

I find that to say God is glorified wehn we are sick and dead to be troubling. No where do I find any verse supporting that. I think it's more accurate to say God is glorified when we suffer being persecuted for his name sake. That is blibical and supported by scripture. Death even but under persecution. That is legitimate as it is recorded. But no where do I find in scripture God glory in our sickness or death, that to me is just man's saying, never God.

So if there are Christians who live long, healthy and good life, do you deny God brought heaven on earth for those who are blessed? Now I'm not minimizing Christians who are suffering but can you take Christians who are suffering as the default theology over those that God blessed? Why do we not see and understand when God say..According to your Faith so it shall be? We are blessed or curse by the words of our own tongue. When one belives that God glory in our sickness, I'm afraid that is a curse brought upon ourselves and not by God.

If only I can bring in the example of the 12 spies sent to report on the promise land, what happened to them is basically an example for all of us. When we don't believe in what God says, it's to our own demise.

I concur with unknown warrior.

Bible is a book of good news. Not sorrow struggles and sadness. Yes there are. But the overall theme is God has some great news for you.

Being Christian again is very difficult. Try fulfilling all words by God. It's very difficult. Choosing to be Christian doesn't promise a sweet life. Carrying the cross is difficult. Putting down oneself is difficult.

I believe in hope. What's life if there's no hope.

And indeed Jeremiah 29:11 states well God has good plans for everyone. But up to us to choose to lead the lives we want and ultimately the consequences of it.

I can't understand if one says hey read Jeremiah but it has nothing to do with you, it's just historical book, you know. Nothing personal here. After reading, you may move on to the next page. We may as well read civilization history books.

Bible isn't just any book. It has everything to do with you.

Its no wonder you are interpreting the scriptures as such.

If God did not use the Jewish setting, then He did not use Israel. If He indeed used Israel, then Hebrew is the language that He used to reveal His intentions of redemption through human beings, and following that human speech and all its traditions. That, I think is proven as all the early scripts including Jewish tradition and the Dead Sea Scrolls attest to.

If everything was spiritual as you put it, then God could just use other means such as angels to spread the news.
Yet, He did not. He used human Israel, called through Abraham and used Jewish Prophets and dictated to them through Jewish thoughts and writings about His Messiah.

Why did God use Israel?
Its in the Jewish scriptures



Did Jesus become a human? Through which tribe, which nation? It has been stated overe and over again in Jewish prophecies the coming of the Messiah through the tribe of Judah through Israel.

Do you really disagree with this? OR am I reading you wrong again?

Now read this and tell me its not Jewish


No.Nothing to do with your EYES!
So if you say "Pu san pu se" to an English in transliterated English: "No 3 No 4". Would an Englishman understand that?

You mentioned kingdom perspective. Its ALL through JEWISH parables!



And its all very spiritual.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 29 2020, 08:30 AM

The main reason why the church does not teach on these bad things is that they want the people to have positivism and great life in this temporal earthly life. UW would call that abundance.

Thus, the heresy of health and wealth doctrines to tickle the ears of the carnal members. No wonder these institutions grow the fastest!

Yes you are reading me wrong again as usual. I did not say God did not use Jewish setting, I said something else. If you're really interested to understand what I meant then read it slowly. If you refuse to try to understand what I'm saying, can I take it that you have prejudice in reading my thoughts? Then the problem lies with you.


As I've said before to you specifically long time ago, if health is something that is consider a sin and it's wrong, Jesus would have not healed anyone. If your dosctrine is proven correct then people would have not throng after the apostles to be heal either. I remember vividely scripture telling me, the sick even using the shadow of the apostle Peter to be healed. I find that this doctrine of ANTI Healing to be of the devil, really. Devil wants people to suffer and you too seem to want people to suffer by saying health is something heretical.


If wealth is also a sin then no Man of God who seeks after God would be allowed to have wealth. God should have removed Soloman's wealth or Abraham's wealth and ensure that he is just normal like you and I.
Scripture like this should be an error then. Wow look there the word abundance is there (bountiful)


Proverbs 8:21 (KJV) - That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

2 Corinthians 9:11 (KJV) - Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Apr 29 2020, 10:55 AM

Really?

And i quote YOU again



You are trying so hard to justify your anti Jewish bias with NO conclusion. As with grace you had no conclusion about grace through the ages.
I have showed you Kingdom principles in JEWISH parables. Is that not SPIRITUAL enough?
You have given ZERO response to that.

Fact you have not answered anything. Prejudice? Yes. Because of your wrong teachings like this.


See what you are trying to do AGAin and again. Stating something which is not stated in my post.
Who said health and wealth are sins?

You should learn what is bountiful and blessings in God's perspective. Not through your post modern American commercialism worldview.
There is no given health and wealth with the gospel. That's Yankee commercialism.

You pick verses out of their context and read them in English and apply the Yankee worldview and expect the Truth out of scriptures?

Look at how you interpret Pr 8:21. Its laughable! Picking a verse like that. DO you even know the CONTEXT of Pr 21???
Give you a hint



Why do you think Jesus warn about wealth so many times? Through Many Jewish parables. Wink*