pandai u.

Yaloh ...

of course la .. i cut u , u bleed red, u cut me i bleed red..

mana itu catholic tread?

that....... actually wins over all kind of theology.

Here is why I have never like this line "Nobody is perfect!" I think it was Unknown Warrior who brought this up but don't worry this is even mentioned by my own Catholic brethren themselves. ;(

Anyone can see from Scriptures that our Lord Jesus Christ encourages each & everyone of us to be born again. Period.

Sayings such as this runs contrary to His teachings as a result it changes the mind thinking it's ok to fall back into sin on the pretext that nobody is perfect. Hence it's normal to find that so many keeps repeating the same identical sin.

On the contrary Scripture says stop sining or something worse may happen to you. There are many more verses that can be use to substantiate it and I am sure many of you guys here knows it better than me.

I think I can see where you are coming from and will stand with you only from a certain perspective.

Knowledge is absolutely different from light. Today believers need light. It is absurd for a child of God to have life but be without light (1 John 1:4).

The realization of sin is not a question of knowledge but a question of light shined on by God within us spiritually.

It is after we see (from the light) how utterly terrible we are that we will desire to live the divine life. We should not take the Lord’s word in Matthew 5 as a teaching concerning how we should behave. We are not able to imitate the Father. This way of behaving does not work. The Lord’s word was intended to touch our being and to expose what we are. When we have been exposed and subdued, we shall give the full opportunity to the divine life to live within us. This will make us perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

Now, if "no one is perfect" is just a maxim, a knowledge thrown about and even a kid can says this without any feeling to justify sinning. Then, I will agree ... it needs to be condemned

All I am saying, yes, we need to experience and claim the spiritual fact of being a son of God with all its riches .... but that can only happens once we are exposed by the light. It is a cycle. More light, more exposure, more cleansing, more enjoyment, then more light .... (1 John 1).

Hi Roman,

Nobody can be perfect. Only God is perfect but that doesn't mean we don't try to thrive better. The part where we are not perfect is a FACT, That is the point. Why? As I've explained quite clearly..we are still living in the current body that has the nature of the flesh. Now with that being said, the nature of the flesh does not define who are in Christ. God has separated us from that through Jesus and YET the flesh is still in the body.

I just want to bring one thing clear.

The state of our sinnerhood or sainthood is not bestowed correlated to our performances. We are sinners because of Adam. We inherited the sinnerhood from him. We always argue, no matter what good you do, you cannot erase the sinnerhood status, agree? The argument behind this is that, sin cannot be erased by human effort or performances. So in other words, what you do or don't do, cannot solve the problem of sin.

Likewise in the same manner, how God bestowed sainthood or the state of being cleansed from sin is not bestowed correlated to our performances. Hebrews 10:10 tells us, we are made clean = BECAUSE of CHRIST!

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV) - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Being born again, is of the spirit, it is the work of God, not your works, meaning not your obedience that justify. Because if you say it does, then you're going back to the Old Covenant Law that presupposes on our obedience for justification.

The problem with your angst in this is that you correlate sinnerhood and sainthood to your own performances.

Allow me to further explain (related to this) why what desmond brought up on the dying thief are not works. It's an error to think that it is. All the steps outlined are confession of the mouth. That is point no.1.

Whenever someone demands to see the fruits as evidence of being saved. The idea behind this is that, you need to prove it out by your actions in life BECAUSE anyone can easily confess anything or in other words "Just say" and do nothing. And that takes time. it will take years, otherwise HOW do you know, what you say is what you will do? How will one know, without the years of walking it out is tangible evidence that by what you do, you are inline with what you say? Do you agree up to here?

The dying thief merely confess and did not have the privilege of walking the talk. YET Christ Jesus granted him paradise upon the confession of his mouth on the very 1st time EVEN before he has the chance to prove his walk. (to show the fruits)

Think about it. That is something irrefutable.

God hates Self Righteousness or anything that revolves on presupposition of the strength of Man.

Isaiah 31:1 (NIV) - Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD.

When the Children of Israel was rescued from the Egyptians by the Lord, along the way to the promised land, they complained, the murmured, etc.
Yet every cry of need and complain brought forth fresh providence of Grace from God. The Israelite did not die from those sins. God was "CLOSE" and was with them in a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night.

They were given grace not because they were good but because God is good.

But the moment they took the position of presuming on their own strength on mount Sinai...saying

"kōl ’ă-šer- dib-ber Yah-weh na-‘ă-śeh; long before they even heard 1 commandment....(they have not heard what are those commands and yet presume they are able to)

Meaning; "We will do everything the LORD has commanded" presuming on their own effort before God.

God told Moses to tell them;

"Put limits for the people around the mountain" meaning do not come near. Anyone who does or even touch the foot of the mountain will die. Even if an animal touches the foot of the mountain will die. Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”And there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud. The outlook seems terrifying. Hebrews 12 tells us..this same mountain permeates darkness, gloom and storm. This symbolizes...there is a distance between God and Man.


After this; on their journey to the promise land, when they complained and murmured, they were struck down and they died.

How come there seems to be a change in the way God treated them before and after the Law was given?

I leave this to your thoughts.

God Bless


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 2 2018, 09:53 AM

I am not advocating actionless christian. We need to work when it comes to striving not to sin, obedience to the Laws, and most importantly to work out the Love that God graciously gives us.

With that being said I would also like to show this verse that speaks of faith + work,

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

.. which speaks of christians, having faith (when they called Lord), and also they have works "to prove" their faith (when they said 'we did this, we did that, and we did this and that').

One thing in common in all of them is that they love to point out "their works". They are leaning on works, and the good works become their idol.

Erk ... the your work's definition ... the obedience to the Laws (not sure where that comes from) is not right.

In Rom 3:20 work mainly denotes our conduct, our behavior. Paul is saying that no fallen person can be justified before God by his conduct. Thus, in that verse work does not refer to an activity or a task that we do; it refers to particular deeds in our behavior. In Greek this word denotes acts, actions, activities. It includes everything of our actions. Our actions involve deeds, conduct, and many other things as well. Therefore, the work of faith refers to all the acts, actions, of faith.

Of course, if the source was their work is from their own .... yes, they will credit it as theirs. The Lord did not approve that their work since the source is not from Him or according to His will.

There is many instances that are positive; like Matt 25:2
His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.

And Paul in 1 Tim 4:7
I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.

Like you said, there is the usual danger of work according to our flesh. But neither can we go to the other extreme that it is only of the Lord and no action. Even good works apart from God is good flesh ... also flesh.

But I like to point out your statements:



There is an underlying assumption or presupposition ... that God and man are separate entities during this kind of experience.

Consider the union in life as describe by the abiding in the vine. And you should see the answer.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 2 2018, 10:37 AM

Bro...He said "I am not advocating actionless christian."

Yeah ... I notice that and not attributing to it to him. It's hard to do that on a thread .... and may come across

Just stating a principle and not because I attribute it to what he says (though his earlier thread uses those words -)

I wanted to use pure monergism .... but that is ok I hope

@Haledoch

Actually what he said on this is correct:

They are leaning on works, and the good works become their idol.

On one extreme end Christians subconsciously do not know they're banking on their works as the confident factor. And I know it's hard to detach from that.

Sure. Good flesh is still flesh and is evil in the sight of God. Don't think that flesh is evil because it is negative like anger, murder, fornication etc.

Yup agreed, that is a good perspective.

One may be so ethical, so right, so righteous, so moral, so good, but altogether according to the flesh. Another may be bad to the uttermost according to the flesh. But the source is the same.

We all love our good flesh

Obedience to the Laws to me sounds allright. Not the ritual laws ofc (Sabbath, eating pigs, circumcision, water baptism, tithing?, etc). But of the laws that say don't do sins.

Can you give a practical example so it is easy to understand?

Are we not? What are you saying here that man and God become one? A relationship requires the existence of both distinct entities, and there are always a constant communication between us and God. Or have I mis-interpreted you? This is the verse where I make that conclusion,

Proverbs 16
9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

Ah ... the moral laws. But the Lord has uplifted it so high (inward motives) in Matt 5-7 that it is virtually impossible. It is so high that only God (the Most High) can do it *wink*

All I am saying it is not merely an outward action. What you are saying other than the adherence to the law is somewhat there but not all.

It is our living, attitude and conduct and deeds. It is definitely not adherence to the law. Our whole person ... what is it living. If I am living money, my thoughts, actions, attitude is all related to money.

For example, I connect work with faith:

1) An unbeliever accepts the word, faith is produced in him, and through this faith he is born of God and put into Christ. Now that he has faith, certain actions are sure to follow. For example, he may spontaneously declare, "O Lord Jesus, You are so precious!" Then he may go home and speak to his wife and children about believing in the Lord Jesus. These are are works of faith. Faith implies God, grace, power, light, and many other items. For this reason, when a new believer preaches Christ to his wife, the faith within him may enlighten him concerning his attitude toward her. Then he will confess his shortcomings to the Lord and apologize to his wife concerning certain matters.

2) The work of faith includes all the actions that issue out of our living faith. This includes our relationship with others and all our behavior. Before a certain person was saved, he may have been unkind to others and harsh in many aspects of his behavior. But once he has faith in the Lord, this faith will not allow him to treat others in such an unkind way.

If it is of faith, we are immediately assured, and our hearts are spontaneously calmed down. It seems that we have the assurance that God will definitely accomplish His work. There is no need for struggling. There is no need for anxiety. There is not even the need to worry about exercising.

Yes. Man and God have become one (1 Cor 6:17). The Christian life is to live the Triune God. Faith joins you to the Triune God.

When you experience the living faith, it is the Triune God living in your living. It's a mystery.

If you ask me, is it my working ? I say it is the Triune God's working.

If you ask me, is it the Triune God's working only, no, I am also working cooperating with His working. But it is effortless because He is the One working.

Two lives are living as one yet our human identity is not destroyed. This is to abide in the Lord and He abides in you.

The fruits are spontaneous and effortless yet we still bear fruit.

So, when Paul says, He speaks in Christ. Is he speaking? He will say Christ is speaking. Is Christ speaking only? No, Paul is speaking too. Christ spoke in Paul's speaking because they have become one in the union of life.


OK I stop here.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 2 2018, 12:51 PM

For me it is not work that prove a sincere faith. Rather it is a decision we make to trust God over our own common sense and rationality - that prove real faith. And James never said work is for proving faith. It is done so faith is not going to die.

A good story from Charles Blondin ilustrated this true faith.

Blondin's greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat.

He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

No one did.

God disagrees with you in Deu 30:11 (ESV)

"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off."

And also God encourages us to practice the laws in Mat 5:19 (KJV)

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Well, I really cannot comment on this. Maybe you are right, or wrong. I dunno. But one word that come to my mind when you speak of situations like these, is being inspired. A man inspired by God can do anything.

Also I want to comment something about this trinity doctrine. I have doubt over it and I cannot accept John Calvin who was a defender of this doctrine had killed a brother in Christ (Servetus) just to defend this doctrine. God would never spread his true gospel through murders and killings of innocent people. So now I lean towards believing that Jesus is also the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as one true God. There is no distinct persons in there, just one true God.