For me personally I agree this is an unneeded dilemma.

In the Bible, there no such thing as catholic, protestant, Methodist, baptist, etc.

You won't find it.

A Christian is just Christian, no other definition.

Do you know...people who follow Christ used to be called "The way" Now, THAT is recorded in the bible.

I'll try to keep this simple.

It's not a sin to have wealth.

Yet God says, Don't pursue wealth.

And yet God prospered some Christians.

It's an oxymoron situation, do you know how come?


Huge difference.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 22 2017, 06:20 PM

The conventional answer I find is 'proof that you're truly saved/committed to Christ' ect ect. True and False Christians.

But I also remember you had mentioned that it's the transformation of life here on Earth.

That is the conservative answer which most Churches teaches.

But if you knew what Jesus meant, it would put your heart at ease.

I personally felt, this portion of scripture has been abused to scare people, implying many things like effort in difficulty....but its what God never meant. Scare tactics doesn't last long. After awhile, it becomes of no effect and people's life are not change. Why? Because it's the interpretation of people trying to fit in the best meaning but problem is...it is not of the Holy Spirit.

I teach let Bible interpret Bible.

Remember Jesus said He is the gate by which his sheep enter in and "out" as well? (John 10)

The narrow road is in reference to Him being the only road to Salvation, as there is no other road. Fullstop, that's it. That is what it means. Jesus being the only way to the Father, hence the "narrow" road. Faith in him is that narrow road. The reason why Jesus used "narrow road" is because he was talking to the Jews. And it's true, only a few of them find it...meaning only few of those Jews recognized Jesus as the Christ at that point in time. The others all rejected Him.

It is not referring to us trying to carry our cross, our striving, our true committed act to Christ. The word of God never contradicts itself. If Salvation is by grace, then it cannot be merited by our striving. This has been very clear cut.

......it will take the Holy Spirit to illuminate this and I pray you will understand.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 22 2017, 09:21 PM

Thank you. this really does put my heart at ease.

It really fills me with anxiety when people go "you have to put your faith by living right, otherwise you're not truly saved."

There are a lot of things that I want to do, or think I should do, but I just can't get past the first step. So it's a spiral of angst and anxiety of not living up to standards.

It's the main reason why I dare not go to church anymore. The cycle had become unbearable. I know it's bad and the worst thing to do, but... I just can't.

There's one thing I don't understand. Why is there so much rage against One Saved Always Saved? People calling it demonic doctrine and so on

Edited for clarification

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Oct 23 2017, 06:38 AM

I think RC Sproul gives a very good explaination on salvation and works.

Catholics teach that salvation = faith + works

Many false teachers will say salvation = faith alone

This gives many people a false security that they can believe in Jesus and keep on living their sinful lives thinking they are saved, aka salvation without lordship to Christ.

And then other people will attack people who teach the Lordship of Christ as a works-salvation.

But at the heart of the issue, the scripture really teaches this : true faith = salvation + works

If you have no works, you still love your sins, you have no salvation.

Not only will this shake the faith of those people (who thinks that they are saved for raising their hands during altar call), but will encourage the true belivers that their faith is real because their works are visible.

Hope all are clear on this.

no one argue that salvation is not by faith alone


The problem with some preacher is that they suggest one can accept Jesus as saviour without accepting Jesus as Lord of their life. below article put it together quite well.



Question: "What is cheap grace?"

Answer: The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

A similar debate regarding cheap grace erupted in the 1980s and 1990s in theLordship Salvation controversy. The controversy began when pastor and theologian John MacArthur objected to a teaching that was becoming popular in evangelical circles called “carnal Christianity.” The reference is to a statement that the apostle Paul made in his first letter to the church at Corinth: “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:1). The phrase “of the flesh” is the Greek word sarkinos, meaning “flesh.” The word carnal comes from the Latin word for “flesh.” In the New Testament, flesh can simply mean “skin, flesh, body.” However, Paul often uses it to speak of our sinful nature—that unredeemed part of man with whom the new man in Christ must battle daily (Romans 7; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 2 Corinthians 10:2; Galatians 5:16-19).

The idea of carnal Christianity essentially teaches that as long as one makes a profession of faith in Christ, he or she is saved (Romans 10:9), even if there is no immediate obedience to the commands of Jesus and the apostles to live a life of holiness. It is the idea that we can have Jesus as Savior, but not necessarily as Lord. People who advocate for carnal Christianity, or “free grace” as it’s often called, do not deny the necessity of good works (i.e., holy living) for sanctification, but they distinguish the call for salvation from the call to sanctification (or discipleship).

There are many Scripture passages that free grace advocates use to support their position. It is not necessary to cite them all, but two of the most popular and forceful passages are John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

• For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

• Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

Clearly, these passages, and others, teach that the one who believes in Jesus Christ “has eternal life” and “will be saved.” There is no disputing this. However, what people like John MacArthur and others were objecting to is not that salvation and eternal life are free gifts of God’s grace, but rather the teaching that the call to salvation does not also include a call to repentance and holy living. In other words, they were objecting that the doctrine of free grace was becoming a doctrine of cheap grace. What the proponents of Lordship Salvation assert is that salvation is a call to discipleship, that one cannot have Jesus as Savior without also acknowledging Him as Lord.

The New Testament uses the word for “Lord” (kurios) 748 times, and 667 of those times it is used in reference to God or Jesus (e.g., “Jesus Christ our Lord,” Romans 1:4). In contrast, the New Testament uses the word for “savior” (soter) only 24 times. It seems clear that the emphasis in the New Testament is on Jesus Christ as Lord, not as Savior. Now in saying that, it is not meant to downplay or denigrate the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. What a glorious and gracious provision God has made for His people in providing Jesus Christ as our atoning sacrifice who thereby guarantees salvation and eternal life for those who believe in Him. Jesus Christ is most certainly our Savior, but this cannot be separated from the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord, and as Lord, He commands and we obey. 

Jesus, in His Great Commission to the 11 remaining disciples, commanded them to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). Evangelism and discipleship go hand in hand. A disciple is one who observes (keeps, obeys) all that Jesus has commanded. There is no two-stage process in Christianity—first, be saved; then become a disciple. This arbitrary distinction is foreign to the New Testament and therefore foreign to Christianity. 

To play off the title of Bonhoeffer’s book, let’s look at what Jesus said to His disciples about discipleship in Luke 14:25-33. In that passage, Jesus says to the crowds that no one can be His disciple unless they first hate their family (v. 26). Furthermore, the one who cannot bear his own cross cannot be His disciple (v. 27). Two conditions are given by Jesus in order to be His disciple. The first is to be willing to renounce family in order to follow Jesus. The second is to be willing to die, both literally and metaphorically (“die to self”) in order to follow Jesus. Jesus then gives two examples of “counting the cost.” The first is an example of a man who desires to build a tower without first counting the cost of building the tower. After realizing he cannot complete it, he gives up in shame and embarrassment. The second is that of a king preparing to go to battle and making sure he can defend against the superior foe. The point Jesus is making is that discipleship has a cost.

Furthermore, discipleship requires repentance and obedience. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, the message He preached was a message of repentance (Matthew 4:17). The message of the apostles after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension was also one of repentance (Acts 2:38). Along with repentance comes obedience. Jesus told a crowd of listeners that salvation and obedience go hand in hand: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46). Jesus then goes on to differentiate the one who builds his house on the sand from the one who builds his house on the rock, that is, the man who not only hears the words of Jesus, but does them, too.

Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace!

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Oct 23 2017, 08:37 AM

The problem is that if Salvation also requires work, Jesus did not need to die on the cross, the 10 commandment was more than enough.

Works is basically adhering to the Laws of God.

What cheapens Grace is trying to remove the meaning of Grace and adding works to it.

but the Bible clearly tells us, God would not have it. God is not obliged to give to you because you performed as how a wage to the worker.

You cannot ignore this portion of scripture.

We all want right living, but it comes only by way Grace. Goodness of God leads to repentance not otherwise.

Try and study scripture what it means


For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

you're welcome.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:14‭-‬26 ESV
http://bible.com/59/jas.2.14-26.ESV

Read the context, justification before other people...horizontal.

* Who is the "You See" referring to? God or People? Who is the one seeing here?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 23 2017, 03:17 PM

Nobody is saying salvation requires works.

Bottom line is, true faith will produce good works.

So do you believe that a person can say the sinner's prayer at a point in time and disappear from church forever, and still be saved?

Yes it would be saying Salvation requires work when you put in the equation you must see the fruits.

Meaning to say, One attains Salvation and forfeit Salvation according to what the person does.

Salvation is no more of Grace but merited by self performance.

Actually it's the Holy Spirit and Life trusting in Christ.... basically, the power of God in the Life of the believer.. produce good works but that is not for you to judge or decide.

It's God's alone, still.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 23 2017, 02:04 PM

Ahmighads this happened yesterday. Someone thought it was an internet scam, but it turns out to be an honest request for help.

Watch this. 4 mins ish. Very feels and very Praise God

Just for discussion sake.

Not here to disagree or agree with any denomination.

Say if a person says the sinners prayer, confess and accept Christ as Lord and Savior but later lives a contradictory sinful lifestyle or doesn't go to Church anymore and doesn't really live a Christian life as how brother Thomas ask, is He saved?

Let us discuss this;

I think either something is wrong with the way how the Gospel is shared..either it's incomplete or the person didn't fully understand what was shared.

Now understand that I'm against Sin. UW is 100% against Sin. But how We overcome sin...this is where I differ from others.

But back to this dilemma, when we share the gospel, we need to tell the person, Christ died for you, He was judged and punished for your sins, If you put your faith in Him as your Savior & Lord, You are saved; sin is wrong, it's what corrupts the person and it's what separate the person from God, because God is holy. On Judgement day, any person who is still separated from God will be judged according to what He has done or said. Now I'm not God so I'm in no position to say God will send the person to Hell or Heaven, we don't know what the person did, only God knows.

But I will say this, any person who reject Christ will come under judgement. Most translation use the word condemned in John 3:18 but the Greek Word there is Krino which is Judgement...meaning will be tried.
Condemned means you are judged guilty. Whichever I leave that to your thoughts.

To be fair, the Bible does give chance to the person who wants to be justified by the Law (Performance base) under the New Testament but on the condition, you are bound completely to fully comply, break just 1 law is as good as breaking all of it. And the next condition is, there's no Grace for you. You cannot have both, can't have both the cake and still want to eat it. Bible is very clear on this in Romans 11:6. Jesus also said you cannot mix new wine into old wine skin, He was referring that you cannot mix both the old Testament covenant with the New Covenant, Law and Grace.

Now, the best of the Old Testament, King David whom God call a Man after his own Heart failed to uphold the law perfectly, what makes you think you can? What makes you think anybody can?

So back to the scenario, Either we fail to explain properly, you need to turn away from sin and that's it, never explain how [it's impossible for you to do that in your strength, you need to believe for the power of the HS to change you from inside], just tell him to "repent" , the person tried to live the Christian Life, failed then later find it impossible and gives up, then loses Faith or the person wasn't really born again in the beginning, He/She may say the sinners prayer but never fully comprehend What Christ did for Him and why Sin is wrong, thing like that.

What if the person fully understand the Gospel, said the sinners prayer and yet live a contradictory lifestyle? I will say there's no such thing. Because if you fully understand the gospel, you will also understand you need a Savior, so when the person said the sinners prayer with understanding, You accept Christ, you have the Holy Spirit in your life, He will convict you and the person will feel very uneasy on sinning.

What if such a person who accepted Christ and have the Holy Spirit but refuse to submit and wants to sin? Then I will say, either the person don't understand sin is wrong or we never tell him/her it's wrong.

So the scenario would mean for a person who said the sinners prayer but leave church and live contradictory lifestyle either the person has never really been born again or there's incomplete Gospel being shared.

What if the person understands sin is wrong, have accepted Christ, wants to live right but find himself failing and yet still has his/her faith in Christ, still comes to Church, still study the Bible, Still trying to live the Christian Life...I would say this person is still save, because He knows his Salvation is in his savior not himself. This is where I differ from other people.

Edit: Can such a believer as above be changed? Definitely can.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 24 2017, 09:26 PM

I think you are not clear..
Salvation IS Faith alone..

Read Ephesians 2:8,9
,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."

PLEASE do not confuse the congregation that salvation can be of ANY manner.

HOWEVER,

no one can truly see the faith.
and hence, James put it in a very clear manner.
If you have faith, by law of nature there WILL BE works.
Which means if you are saved, and you continue living a sinful life, you are still saved.
BUT, the main question is if you are saved, WOULD you have lived a sinful life to begin with?

James 2:20,"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
*Read on James 2 to fully understand what i mean."

Hebrews 12:6-8,"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

So i beseech you not to confuse your salvation and God's salvation.
God gives salvation freely and ONLY through faith.

My friend,
i've explained what you want to say through the Word of God.
I think it is what you want to say.
but i kinda summarized your 'questions' because God has already did that for us :-)

But i reckon whatever opinions or statements that we have or stand on, must be reproved by God's word. Remember Christ was as such. Often times Jesus would bring up the old testament statements and words... even apostles.. disciples.. so should we...

This post has been edited by zanness: Oct 26 2017, 07:59 AM

I understand what you are going through. And I've been through it, believe me.
Reasons why you might be going through this, i reckon its another different discussion.
but for your matter, I will give you first, Your Warnings.. second, your faith, and third, your assurance.

Your warnings.
Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Not everyone that claims he/she is a Christian will be saved. The devils believe in Jesus, Judas called Jesus my master, yet are they not saved. The difference we are talking here is faith. The type of faith you have and the type of faith the unsaved have.

Your faith
If you say you are saved, show yourself from the Bible verses that assures your salvation.
Every person that are truly saved one way or the other will have a verse in the Bible to assure his/her salvation. But in a nutshell, if you believe who Jesus is, what Jesus did, and why Jesus did it, and how Jesus did it, your faith is pretty much assured. But if you start saying about feelings, how God made me feel, how I met Jesus in my dream and how He made me feel.. anything about feelings... well I'll be worried if I were you.
Jeremiah 17:9,"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Your heart, cannot be trusted.. And well some churches might well be aware of this too.

Your assurance.
John 10:28,"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

1 John 2:25,"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

If you are saved, your salvation is forever with you.
You are saved by Grace..
So don't let false prophets sway you.

Don't worry on works if you ask me.. worry more about your faith. What do you truly believe in? Christianity as a religion? because if it is a religion, then it is doomed to fail. Christianity is your salvation, not a religion. What you believe in matters more because when you have true faith, then eventually, your works will come.

i'm definitely all ears. i've been a student of eschatology for many years. do share with us if u have the time

[/quote]


Sorry i was away for a business trip.
Got a bit busy.
Here's a theory on how i believe rapture will take place.

1) Christianity will grow closer to the catholics. Catholics to begin with have many flaws and theories enough to debunk themselves.
2) Due to many churches focusing on wrong matters, more and more christians will only be proclaimed christians, but without having accepted Christ at all.
Matthew 24:5," For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

3) The world will have more and more supernatural or alien sightings.
4) The world is prepared to question God's existence. Which means more and more science theories are used to proved God is merely science in action.
5) There will then appear aliens to prove that God is merely something that they had leaved their mark on many years ago. Creation to begin with, was of their origins. They are able to show evidences left on earth by them many centuries ago.
6) Why I think this theory has essence? Think about the prophesies that we are told. One world religion? One world order? No one religion is able to dethrone any other religions. Unless, what if all of their religions were from the same origins to begin with? What if the Gods Buddhist and Hindus worshiped were in fact aliens in the past? It explains the similarities of mythical Greek Gods like Zeus and even chinese Thunder gods. In other words, this alien is able to show evidences all that OTHER religions believe in branches up to only them. The Aliens are actually their Gods.
7) If u ask me it does make sense. One God, one ruling. One order
8) I've been asking myself, what strong delusion would God send in 2 Thessalonians 2:11
If we understand the Bible enough, most of the time, people have false Gods. In the Bible, it is so often, a delusion would be of false Gods.
Romans 1:21-25
9) why I think Christians MAY be able to know how things are going to turn out?
1 Thessalonians 5:4," But ye, brethen, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief"
Revelation 16:15, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naed, and they see his shame."
I know the verses above do not translate into meanings that we should know how He returns. Basically we wouldnt know when Jesus returns. But the manner of events, we may be able to predict.
Just a theory with NO Backing whatsoever.

Definitely bro.

Word of God stand eternal.