So long winded Mr Wong.

Hope you don't mind if I take it a section at a time. Maybe this might help you to understand better.

The Book of Hebrews was written for the Jewish audience and the setting was written in a time frame of reference to Jewish believers who accepted Christ, persecuted by those who rejected Christ hence the recorded reference of public insults, persecution imprisonment, etc in the same chapter.

If you look at the very end of Hebrews 10, it says in NIV ......But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and are saved. Even the footnote, Hab. 2:4 talks about the same thing, The Just shall live by Faith in the KJV.(Another translation). So this refers to the New Covenant (Covenant of the righteousness of Faith) as opposed to the Old Covenant of the Law.

Why at the end of Hebrews 10, it talks about the Righteous shall live by Faith, right before the call for perseverance by doing the will of God?
And make mention God takes no pleasure those who shrinks back? Think about it, this part those who shrink back of unwilling to live by Faith or to continue to believe, implying losing hope, is this not referring to Jews who wants to give up the Faith? The persecution is too much?

Isn't this referring to believers who may want to return to adhering to the Law so as to avoid persecution? Hence why Paul made much explanation why the OT Sacrifice can never clean the believer? What is the point of convincing the Jewish believers so much on the Temple Sacrifice?

Why convince the believer to live by Faith? Strict obedience would have suffice, if really the phrase willful sinning is in reference to disobedience, no?
Otherwise what is the point of ending that chapter by admonishing one to live by Faith?


What is doing the will of God? There are some reference of doing the will of God but the one that is in context to Faith is this

John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. The will of God is that you look to His Son and believe. Performance or whatever obedience is not mention here.

Do you understand now? Why the phrase sinning willfully is in reference to rejecting Christ? If you can understand this, then the phrase....no more sacrifice is left will make sense to you. Because apart from Christ, there is no more sacrifice for sins for the believers as the Old Covenant has been made void if they go back to Judaism.

IF the phrase, deliberately sinning is in reference to disobedience and therefore forfeiting Salvation then you cannot say God will forgive if you ask for mercy and doing repentance because either one does not reconcile and neither make sense.

Because in the lifetime of a believer, He/She will sin willfully and by what is warned, there is no sacrifice left for the person, it will be redundant to say God will forgive because by that reason if God is willing to forgive then there is still covering for sin, the sacrifice of Christ.

So which is which now? Is there still sacrifice that covers sin or there is no more? If you say there is no more, that makes it even worse. It only means Christ Sacrifice only covers the first time, after that there is no more even if you repent. That would make the Christian faith never a good news to begin with. Why? Because Man are not perfect being, they will fall somehow. If you say there is still sacrifice for sins left, then the phrase of willful sinning, no more sacrifice is left.... makes no sense in the context of obedient/disobedient...to Salvation.

If you say that even though you've sinned willfully but because you repented earnestly therefore God forgives you, then the basis of God forgiving is now based on what you do or don't do. That makes it a Work based Salvation. You're implying the blood of Christ is not enough. To me that is mixture.

What is the definition of work anyway? For you, you think it's legalism and you may even think it's charity but in the Greek, the word "Work" = Ergon which means:
work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

Do you see the word "action" there? Even obedience can be turned into works.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 15 2018, 03:16 PM

Read the whole passage brother.

Luke 13:22-29 (NIV)
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

In verse 23, Someone asked Jesus, are only a few people going to be saved. Is this not referring in the context of remnant? If it is, then you know very well, this account takes place after the rapture, where the people left behind are the ones that decide to believe after all the Christians have been rapture up.

How do I know this? Because Christ himself have said, Many will try and will not be able to.

How can that refer to the current age we live now? Because in the Book of revelations, it tells us the number of the saints in Heaven are innumerable unable to be counted, multitudes of nation,

How can that be the same as many will not be able to enter? Look and refer to Revelation 7:9.

Under the dispensation of this age after the rapture, such believers really need to strive and that road is indeed difficult not just calling Lord Lord will do.

BTW this similar account is expounded more in detail in Matthew 24 & 25 where Jesus said the same thing...I do not know you and there you could see Him explaining to us the rapture.

As for the 7 Churches, Although the word used is Angels of the Churches , it would not make sense for God to admonish Angels of the Church, as Angels do not have redemption grace. Once they fall, they are cast down. The Word Angels or Angelos can also be interpreted as representative in the Greek. It makes more scriptural sense to see the word Angels there are the Leaders or Pastor of the Church.

When our Lord Jesus admonish, understand that is was a message to the leader of that Church and the purpose is not to cast the person down or to push the person away. You can say the bible use Strong words or whatever but I see it God did this with the heart of love, not with the heart of imposing a God who fold his arm looking at what the person will do. That to me is looking at God with a wrong revelation or spirit.

And as you said it yourself, not every church are warnings, 2 of them of commendations.

Point being, it was specific message to the leader or pastor. It would not be right to use this and apply generally to anyone with the intention to put fear or control. I say let God be the one who build the person, not we being the one to tear another person down, no matter how much you despite or hate that person.

Now I want to say on the set, God doesn't use vague language, neither is God in the habit of leaving his believer clueless as to what his word means.

If Salvation has to be merited through our performance, the meaning of Grace becomes null and void and so does the passage in John 10:28 made invalid.

John 10:28 (NIV) - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Sometime I wonder which part of the "NEVER" we don't understand. To me Never is an obvious Eternal definition. God should use "may" that would serve your theology more accurately since you subscribe to performance based Salvation. (Obedience)

Many times in the 7 churches, message you see the word, He who overcomes. Immediately, on the surface, first thing that will come to most people's mind is; the person has to overcome something, hard challenges else will forfeit Salvation. I cannot begin to tell how many time people can misuse or misappropriation to scare people in telling, you must work out through your obedience else you will lose your salvation. But the problem with that is interpreting according to how we think. Let Bible interpret Bible.

What is the definition of overcome from Bible perspective?

1 John 5:5 (KJV) - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


I'll take the first Church and debunk what you've argued.


Jesus told Ephesus, the Angel of that Church or leader of that Church has lost First Love. What is first love? Most people will on the surface interpret that as "Our" Love for God. but from Scripture, First Love is never yours.

1 John 4:10 (NIV) - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

First Love belongs to God coming to us. The leader of that Church has forgotten that. We are to practise first and foremost that God FIRST Love us. And Christ admonish "how far you have fallen" because of that. People who enforce we must first love God will Fail because that is preaching of the Law (Performance base). You will interpret this as fallen into sin. No where does scripture says that for the Church in Ephesus.

As far as I remember where in scripture...I remember the phrase, "How far you have Fallen" is synonym with "Fallen from Grace" in verse

Galatians 5:4 (NIV) - You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

To have fallen down from Grace would mean Grace is the Higher position than the Laws of God. Those who tries to put forth the Law as justification (Law here represent 10 commandment) ..Fallen from Grace (Above).

Jesus also told the leader of that Church "the lampstand" will be remove. The meaning of the word lampstand is already define in the Book of revelation itself. Lampstand refers to the Church. So in other words God will remove the Church, not the Salvation of the person.

Again, please do not misuse the Phrase "doing God's will" as if it means obedience, it is not. I've shown you many times the verse that helps us to understand what is God's will.


John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 6:39 (NIV) - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

It is up to you, the way I see from scripture, God give us strong assurance, never doubt and whatever difficult passage is never one that is vague to the point we don't know what it means.
It is always with the intention to help the person He/She can come to God without fear.

Sorry but I cannot accept what you put forth to me, to me, it is preaching fear and doubt doctrine, something that I do not subscribe to. Ultimately..whatever God does, he does it with the Heart of Love with the intention to bring the person close, not to cast the person far away.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 15 2018, 11:48 AM

Understand that your obedience does not merit God to answer you.

That is the OLD COVENANT.

You are under the NEW COVENANT, where everything that God dispenses to you is based on his goodness (GRACE) not yours.

Even the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the work of the Holy Spirit to which God works on the basis of your Faith.

If you like the word obedience so much then look at this verse.

Romans 1:5 (KJV) - King James Bible
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Obedience in believing, look up in the Greek, the way the words are arranged...Obedience of Faith.

the other translation are not so accurate.

You ask me, what the heck is this right?

How can you missed this below? It's there, Jesus told us specifically how to remain in Him.

John 15:9-12 (NIV)

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

To remain in Christ is to do his commands and what is the specific command? Answer is just Love! Specific answer in the same chapter of the Vine.

Not some vague or arbitrary "obedience" of whatever you want it to be.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 15 2018, 10:04 PM

For the most part, you gave me explanation of what you think, I gave you as how the Bible define it, not what I say.

So the entire passage, look at the phrase "You See"...Who is the one perceiving all this justification?

For the book of James, Faith without works is dead is justification before Man and not God, why do I say this?

Look at this verse

James 2:24 (NIV) - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. <====this is the justification verse, isn't it?

So in this verse Who is that "You" referring to? You or God? Who was Apostle Paul talking to?

This is justification before Men.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 15 2018, 10:08 PM

Someone asked me to concise everything.

The key to receiving from God is Faith. Doesn't matter, whether it's receiving God's promises or the Holy Spirit. The principle is consistent with Salvation. You cannot receive Salvation if you don't receive the Holy Spirit.



Romans 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:13 (NIV)
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith

Galatians 3:1-2
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 15 2018, 10:55 PM

In Acts 8:12 we read of a group of Samaritans who “believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, [and] they were baptized, both men and women.” However, when we get to Acts 8:16, we find that “the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” We understand, based on passages such as 1 Corinthians 12:13, that Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. How was it that the Samaritans whom Philip evangelized did not receive the Holy Spirit?

although later did they receive HS with the present of Peter and John among them. so by your doctrine their salvation is not real prior to that isn't it?

The understanding of the Holy Spirit at that point in time is fairly new. Not everyone knew about it except for the main apostles chosen by Christ. We all know Acts is a transition period where the birth of Christianity just begun.

Even in Acts 19 (11 chapters after that) there were disciples who said this

Acts 19:2 (NIV) and asked them (Paul), "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."


Philip was appointed in chapter 6 in the book of Acts. I do not know of He knew about the Holy Spirit through the laying of hand.

And pertaining to your question, What I'm stating is correct because when you receive Christ, you receive the same Trinity God, not separate Gods, so you will not be without the Holy Spirit.

As to why there is a delay, I don't know and whether their Salvation is real or not, it's not in my place to say but AFTER that transition period, it is correct,

If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you do not belong to Christ, how can you receive Salvation?

Romans 8:9-11
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ[U]. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Why are you concern about this anyway? They all did receive the Holy Spirit later. If that is that, then no point to speculate if their Salvation is real or not.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 16 2018, 03:14 PM

the mark of salvation is baptism of HS. everyone receive indwelling of HS at the moment of salvation as gift and it is permanent. I think it is quite subtle and some may not even notice it happens.

at the case of penitent thief, the account in bible only describe his repentance of sins, acceptance of Christ and Jesus seal his salvation

what described by you I believe is filling of spirit. which is a noticeable event

I like what you said about permanent.

We need to have that assured view......God is not going to let us go even when the mistakes is ours.



thank you desmond.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 16 2018, 08:03 PM

Hi guys,

A bit late to the discussion between unkwonwarrior and mr wong, but would just like to contribute a little.

From my understanding, salvation is a complete and perfect gift from God. What God started, He will finish until we see His glory in the end (Romans 8). God does not give a half baked salavation.

Point: salvation cannot be revoked, once saved always saved.

The verses that deal with Christians who seemingly can fall out of grace/salvation, most of them deal with false christians who never had the salvation at all. They have no obedience to the Lordship of Christ, they enjoy in their sin etc.

Point: these false christians(plenty today) were never really christians to begin with.

But real Christians can sin. Repenting is part of sanctification, but it doensnt mean that if you die with one sin that you havent repent of, you will go to hell.

Just to sum it up,

True Faith = salvation + works

You do not need any works to achieve salvation, but after salvation, if your faith is true, your works will flow out.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jan 17 2018, 01:40 PM

Well regarding Hebrews. Have you ever wondered if that book was even written to us in the first place.
Anyway if you have time.

Fuxion-X is right, as TS I got to be neutral otherwise there will never be an end to arguments between denomination.

As Such, I will allow ALL Christian denomination discussion, but please be civil guys.

You maybe in support of OSAS doctrine or Anti-OSAS, Calvinism or Armenian, whatever it is, you can put forth your view.

Everyone's view is welcome, that include Thomasthai, Sylar111 and Also Mr Wong.

God Bless.

*should have done this long time ago....

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 17 2018, 04:28 PM

interesting. air tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya.


koreans incoming

Sevin - After falling into the gang life, multiple failed suicide attempts, major drug & alcohol addictions, death of family and friends and time in jail — God changed Sevin’s heart in a dramatic and undeniable way. Now Sevin uses his gift in music to preach the message that saved his life, and his soul, the true and living Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews was written mainly as a warning to intelectually convinced jews, people who believe the gospel but are not willing to made a commitment to Christ, fence sitters.

They are unwiling to get thrown out of their synagogues and community, hence their unwillingness.

If Hebrews was written to christians, I will have tons of problems with other doctrines, doctrine of election, predestination, effectual calling, assurance, covenant of redemption.

It puts salvation into my own hands, I can choose not to let God save me, I decide my own fate, etc. It flips the whole gospel on its head.

I will watch that video anyway to see his argument.

Thanks.

Being Changed by beholding, is it a Lazy Way?

2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We all have heard the phrase "To be like Jesus Christ". We all want that. To be Christ-like is the end objective of our transformation.

I shared this with a friend, saying this is how we are changed by God, just by beholding. That person replied to me, wouldn't that seem lazy without doing anything?

Peter, when our Lord Jesus Christ bade him to come unto the water, his eyes was fixated on our Lord Jesus Christ..as Peter behold Christ..He was walking on Water as Christ was, but the moment He saw the waves (meaning His eyes were "away" from Christ), He began to sink.

Now you tell me, if Beholding God is a lazy way to change vs "doing". Answer is no, it is the divine power of God promised in his divine word. The word of God are not normal words. If it say we can be changed by beholding, then that is what it is, the ways of God.

We are changed by beholding. not "doing" The word beholding is the same as contemplating. In a more detailed exegesis, it is like beholding as one look into a mirror.

In short summary, keep your eyes on Christ, not any human not any pastors. Keep on beholding Christ, what He did...meditate on it. Let it be reminded in your minds. Read all the passages that talks on what Christ did. See it from God's Love point of view.

Then agree wholehearted in your heart and mind. For example, if scripture says, you are a new creature in Christ, then behold that! If scripture says you have died in Christ and have also risen with Him with all your sins removed, then behold that! Even though your current actions may not reflect what God's word says....forget what is passed and keep on beholding in Faith, being convinced you are a new creation, your sins has been removed at the cross. That is living by faith.

Always remember the doing part is a fruit.

You have to start at beholding. The fruit will follow by the Holy Spirit.

Some people love to emphasizes on the fruits, implying to start with the doing first. It's up to you how you view this, for me I will follow what scripture says, not what I think is logical or rationale from my mind's POV, how we should be changed. naturally, it's logical to start by doing first but bear in mind, God's way is just...different.

Bible says start with the right view first. (Beholding). This beholding is like looking in the mirror. How you view God, will transform you. Sorry to repeat this but I think this need emphasis.

If you see God as your saviour, if you see God as a good God, If you see God as a forgiving God, etc, BEHOLD IT!...I know it sounds "lazy" but that is where the transformation happen inside your life.

God Bless.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 18 2018, 09:07 AM

Indeed it should present you with tons of problems because of the base theology we are standing on ... and that is a good thing

In my opinion, the first statement is almost hard to stand on.

There is almost overwhelming evidences in the book of Hebrews is that its recipients were believers in the Lord Jesus.

1) The writer of this book frequently identifies with his readers the first person we, us, and our (2:1, 3; 3:14; 4:1, 11, 14-16; 6:1; 10:22-25; 12:1-2, 28; 13:13-15).

2) He refers them as brothers (3:1, 12; 10:19; 13:22).

3) Also, partakers of a heavenly calling (3:1).

4) Also, the house of God (v. 6), partners of Christ (v. 14), believers (4:3)

5) Having been sanctified once for all (10:10),

6) sons of God under the discipline of the Father (12:5-9),

7) partakers of the Father’s holiness (12:10)

8) having come forward to the blessings of the new covenant (12:22-24).

etc. etc.


Scot McKnight in his book, "The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal Analysis and Theological Conclusions", concludes:



-------------------------------------------------

Rather, you have to put before you, what is really salvation ... that salvation is isn't what we think it is .. . And no, we can't lose our salvation. But is it only the initial salvation?


Cheers!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 18 2018, 09:15 AM