lol


Calvinist don't like book of Hebrew and free grace proponent don't like book of James


there seems to be something there

Ah you're wrong there Bro, I like the book of James because our Faith has to work hand in hand with our actions, our words and our thoughts.

I don't see it as justification before God for Salvation but I see as something of ...If you believe it, then act like it and God is never more please when He sees our Faith in action.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 18 2018, 09:58 AM

Let me rephrase that, hebrews was written to jewish christians AND fence sitters.

Does that solve the problem?



www.gotquestions.org/amp/Book-of-Hebrews.html

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jan 18 2018, 10:15 AM

You think leh? Not really bro

Why not just Jewish believers only which represent us also?



>> Brief Summary: The Book of Hebrews addresses three separate groups: believers in Christ, unbelievers who had knowledge of and an intellectual acceptance of the facts of Christ, and unbelievers who were >> attracted to Christ, but who rejected Him ultimately. It’s important to understand which group is being addressed in which passage. To fail to do so can cause us to draw conclusions inconsistent with the rest >> of Scripture.

This is no different then separating according to books down to sections. XD

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 18 2018, 12:34 PM

Dear all, please put up a spoiler on the quoted text whenever you reply a post that is very long, by doing so we minimize others from reading such a long windy posts

Well. It's great that you have an open mind because most people will assume that the book of Hebrew is addressed to everyone by virtue of the fact that it's in the new testament.

Actually, reading Hebrews again, it's clear it's being addressed to the Jews by virtue of the title of the book and also how it's being written. For example, Hebrew 3:9.
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

I mean our fathers cannot be referring to Moses and the Patriachs right? So it has to be to the Jews.
Also, it's obvious that Moses is being held with high regard. Something that is not really associate with Christians because Moses is not really our Patriachs . Sorry for not maybe explaining things well but I think you would get the picture.

Also other key words like inheritance etc.

The other thing then is to ask.
What does this verse exactly mean
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As for fencesitters. Do you think someone who does not have a Jewish herritage would be able to understand Hebrews? If it is to the fence sitters, dun you think God would have inspired someone to write to the fence sitters. In a tone like say Corinthians?

It really cannot mean us sinning willfuly because if that's the case, everyone of us will not be saved.
Similarly it cannot be talking about the current Jewish Christians. I am sure they follow the same standard.

If sinning willfully means rejecting Jesus then I guess we do not need to preach to the Atheist out there because many of them have probably rejected Jesus after the truth has been preached to them again and again. It also mean that we should not be preaching to the Jews who rejected Jesus after having the Gospel being preached to them.

So what is this particular sin that can actually cause someone to forever be damned based on that definition above. I mean we know that there are no sins right now that can cause anyone to be "forever" damned. Of course I am not expecting you to concur with the video but then this is something we can think about.

Let's not use gotquestions as our standard shall we.

a quote below

You see, faith does not come by simply hearing the word of God because the word of God would encompass everything in the Bible, including the law of Moses.  There is no impartation of faith when you hear the Ten Commandments preached.  Faith only comes by hearing the word of Christ…Only when Christ is preached will faith be imparted.”


guess who say this


hint: Singapore

so book of James is also only for Jews?

seriously?

Technically it is for Jewish believers. But no different from us believers. There is no Jews or Greek

They:

1) have faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory (2:1)
2) justified by faith (2:24)
3) regenerated by the word of truth (v. 18)
4) indwelt by the Spirit of God (4:5)
5)members of the church (5:14)

Pretty much us.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 18 2018, 12:43 PM

Yes it is also written towards the Jews.
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Actually another thing
If James was really written to us then how come
James 2
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

vs

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This post has been edited by sylar111: Jan 18 2018, 01:04 PM

well I just following the flow of their logic lol

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Jan 18 2018, 12:52 PM

that is true


you can have work without faith but you can not have faith without work

Ya think?

I believed it is Paul that confirmed our salvation in 2 Corinthians, 1:21-22 (NIV). Didn't the Bible said that we are saved by faith alone, not by works?

I believed that for certain individual, it may take short or long term improvement for God to "move" them.

From my personal exp, it took me awhile to "rediscover" God.

I can tell you its not by force or influence by men, but by Holy Spirit itself. Its not something that you can measure or produce in a science lab, its a miracle from God.

de1929 suda gila banget dong. Aku pun menyesal..gue minta ampun sama Tuhan.

This will probably be my last post on this issue. Im doing my best to juggle between my work and spending time here.

I think the key to properly understanding hebrews boils down to 2 points here:

1) context: we know that many jews were persecuted by their own people for being a christian. Many of them are thinking of abandoning the faith and going back to the law system. Thus hebrews is an exhortation letter, to exhort, encourage and stir them up to not leave the faith.

Not being a hyper calvinist here, but believers still need exhortation dont they.

2) many terms here (once enlightened, partakers of the holy spirit) are not salvation terms. They are unique to hebrews, and unique to this particular audience. These terms are not used anywhere else, or to the gentiles in the NT.

Despite having the revelation of the OT, the miracles done, and even the messiah among them, they still rejected the gospel. This is to sin willfully and destined for eternal condemnation.
Jesus taught the same idea in mark 3:20, despite my miracles you still think im from the devil (blespheming the holy spirit, unforgivable sin). John piper puts it this way, 'beyond repentance'. What else can still be done?

Interpreting hebrews in light of the rest of scriptures makes plenty of sense to me.

Im going with calvin and the westminster divines with this.




Cheers.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jan 19 2018, 07:00 AM

Yup. Believers still do.

We all have this propensity to feel guilty, some may feel condemned ..of being judged by the Law especially when we have failed God somewhere. It's a natural inclination.

This is when we need to get our faith kicked in and embrace the abounded Grace that is designed to bring us out.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 20 2018, 10:36 AM

You can take your time. Nobody is rushing here.

I am with you there on the context though a little bit difference and the exhortation. The recipients believed in the Lord Jesus, but they were still holding on to their Jewish religion. They were struggling under persecutions, threats, and evil speakings from the Judaizers of their day. This weakened their resolve and faith, causing them to stumble and tempting them to shrink back into Judaism. The Jewish religionists had ostracized them, imprisoned some, robbed them of their property, and threatened their lives (10:32-34)

Re: little difference - I also agreed with F.F. Bruce when he says:



To avoid this, by saying that it ONLY applies to Jewish believers is IMHO not really engaging the texts.

My point is that the purpose of God's speaking in Hebrews applies to all believers.

For example:

The exhortation that they Judaism would leave the law and cross over to grace (4:16; 7:18-19; 12:28; 13:9), that they would leave the old covenant and cross over to the new covenant (8:6-7, 13)

How is this any different from the Galatians? No one will say that they are in danger of eternal damnation . Of course, the writer of Hebrews appeals to Hebrews' background, to

a) leave the ritualistic service of the Old Testament and cross over to the spiritual reality of the New Testament (8:5; 9:9-14);
b) leave the earthly things and cross over to the heavenly things (12:18-24)
c) that they would leave the outer court, where the altar is, and cross over to the Holiest of all, where God is (13:9-10; 10:19-20),
d) that they would leave the soul and cross over to the spirit (4:12) --> 1 Cor
e) and that they would leave the beginning of truth and life and cross over to the maturity of life in the truth (Heb 5 - 6).

Isn't this the condition of us right now in the churches today ...

Charles Spurgeon once say in a striking way:

How can?

Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Eph 5:14 ... Christ will shine on you

The wording is different but the thought is there.

Indeed "partakers of the Spirit" is unique to Hebrews. This has a parallel reference to Exodus.

"enlightened" = pillar of fire;
"tasted of the heavenly gift" = manna;
"partakers of the Holy Spirit" = the Spirit coming upon the seventy elders"

You tell me Exodus is only for the Jews believers today?

In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Paul says that Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us referencing Exo. 12:6
In 1 Cor 5:8, Christ is type of unleavened bread referencing Exo. 12:8, 15
The types in 1 Cor 10 .... we can use the same principle to say 1 Corinthians is only for the Jewish believers.


The blasphemy part is a bit overused. The blasphemy of the Spirit differs from insulting the Spirit (Heb. 10:29). To insult the Spirit is to disobey Him willfully. Many believers do this. If they confess this sin, they will be forgiven and cleansed by the Lord’s blood (1 John 1:7, 9). But to blaspheme the Spirit is to slander Him, as the Pharisees did in verse 24. It was by the Spirit that the Lord cast out a demon. But the Pharisees, seeing it, said that the Lord cast out demons by Beelzebub, ruler of the demons. This was blasphemy against the Spirit. By such blasphemy, the Pharisees’ rejection of the heavenly King reached its climax. You have to be physically there in front of the Lord Himself to commit it.

For argument sake, let's make it, a principle. Then, I can also say it applies to all believers in NT epistles and revelation; not just Hebrews only.

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Oh, sure, you can go with Calvin and westminster Faith. I have no problem with it.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 19 2018, 09:58 AM

speaking of the ........

now u showed up.


lol.


Yes 2 Corinthians, 1:21-22 confirms that.



Yea it will take time, but I think God has never given up on that fella. Sad he just gave up.

I think we all can accept, the message in the book of Hebrews were written specifically to the Jews, that was the point of arresting the meaning of sinning willfully.

As to how it can apply to all believers, for me it applies when one tries to mix up both law and grace as one.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 20 2018, 10:35 AM