Mr Farmer:

Land cost really depends on where you are located. Some land may be really cheap in Sabah or Sarawak, but the access roads and other logistics will literally kill you. More pricey land often has better access roads. I know Sabah Development Corporation is planning on clearing up massive tracks of land around the Ranau region, apparently they are also building access roads to the area. Maybe you could check with them on the Ranau area, or anywhere else they are currently targeting?

Exclusing land cost, according to some of the larger plantations in Sabah and Sarawak, their cost of development is something like RM18,000 + RM10,000 + RM10,000 for the first three years of land preparation and development, including planting cost, creating access roads etc. I can't name those companies, but they are really big, listed companies.

And as far as I can tell you, since Sabah and Sarawak don't have unions for plantations like we do here (I believe there are some push for this though), companies there are not "forced" to pay the wages in accordance to the MAPA-NUPW agreements. However, I believe the government-instilled minimum wage policy will also include plantation companies in Sabah and Sarawak. And on top of that, transportation costs is a lot more higher, and mills are far between, so I would say your minimum acreage should be at least double that in Peninsular. According to the same companies above, it normally takes them to begin earning clean profits after the 12th year of planting, compared to the 8 years in Peninsular (do bear in mind, this includes the cost of buying over the land).

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Added on March 4, 2012, 2:53 amytkwong:

Welcome, and thanks for dropping by. Do feel free to browse around and post questions on topics relevant to agriculture and aquaculture. We will get back to you ASAP.

alaskanbunny + ytkwong:

Yes, I know what you mean. Con jobs are aplenty, so companies or individuals really need to do due dillegence before going forwards. Though things might have already changed, in Indonesia, the local laws tend to be more important that the central government laws, it seems. The company I used to work for had thought the central government laws were the only laws to follow when we initially began investing in Indonesia, until we met the local governor who "informed" the company that is many (or rather most) cases, the central government has no control over what the local authority enforces, if you get what I mean. Things like land area, titles etc. may fall under the central government's jurisdiction, but they often work under the advice from the local authorities.

This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 4 2012, 02:53 AM

Hello alaskanbunny,

May I ask how much per arces? I have RM 50K at hand.

Thank you

This post has been edited by insearching: Mar 5 2012, 10:45 PM

any information abt shrimp or prawn raising?

Hi People....

The March Issue of The Agri & Aqua Culturing Newsletter is out

http://www.mediafire.com/?4s2wr3avtbbb7l3

hi, long time no c...just wondering, apart from slow growth level, y dun ppl here rear turkeys commercially? they're actually healthier than chicken, right?

Maybe chinyen can rear some turkeys then let's us know the result?

right now i am rearing my own supply of chicken...and it is much tastier...

self planted vege & fruit trees....definitely a healthier way of living

Maybe marketability?

for thanksgiving and Christmas....if not mistaken

Did some comparison on the market some time ago last year (Sabah). Chicken vs Duck. I think Chicken wins in terms of market share. I'm sure (here) the market for Chicken is much bigger. Turkey, it didn't cross my mind at that moment.

chinyen, want to share your information on Turkey?

Just visited Desa Cattle Farm.

MrFarmer:

You are absolutely right. And chicken is not just big in Malaysia, but Asia Pacific as a whole:

Country Broiler production (birds per week) Broiler production (birds per year)
Bangladesh 7 million 364 million
China 104 million 5,408 million
India 38.5 million 2,002 million
Indonesia 30 million 1,560 million
Japan 12 million 624 million
South Korea 9.6 million 499.2 million
Australia 11.5 million 598 million
New Zealand
& Pacific Islands 11.5 million 598 million
Pakistan 1.8 million 93.6 million
Thailand 16.4 million 852.8 million
Malaysia 10.3 million 535.6 million
TOTAL 252.6 million 13,135.2 million


On a separate note, how the hell does one publish tables on the forum???

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Added on March 8, 2012, 11:10 amAnyway, putting aside the frustration of not being able to publish any tables on the forum, my thoughts is the same as Para.

A whole chicken may cost RM15-RM20 a bird (or a kg), whereas a whole turkey would likely cost RM50-RM60 easily. Pricing and product placement in this case already a big disadvantage, even though turkey may be less fatty than chicken. However, I also feel that it is this "more healthy taste" of turkey that turns people off; turkey is a really tasteless bird, not to mention difficult to cook. Without the sauce, the bird pretty much tastes like cardboard. Furthermore, one not only has to have the right cooking equipments, but also need to know how to properly cook the bird, or else some parts will be cooked, but other parts overcooked and dry.

This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 8 2012, 11:10 AM

Michael J, where do you think i can get reliable broiler chicken supplier ??? maybe those "CHOY YUEN" or "KONG NECK" or "KAMPUNG" breed ???

very frustrated with the supplier here in Semenyih...cause always mix the male until mostly i reared those male chickens = very less meat compared to female....

Side note : turkey is very difficult to cook properly as per Michael J. you cook wrongly then your RM 50-60 is up in smokes ala Smoked Turkey...and market wise its chicken definitely

if you plan to rear for festival then can give it a try...

Para:

Erm... From my experiments, roosters (male chicken) grow faster and yield more meat than hens (female chicken). Roosters also have less fat to body mass. You may like to read this article from University of Guelph:
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and...?service=mobile

You could try getting from Leong Hup, as they are supplier for Cobb Vantress in Malaysia. But theirs are mostly broiler chicken lar. If you want Holland Reds or kampung chickens, there is this one shop selling joss sticks and such which doubles as a shop selling chicken feed and chicks. They have a consistent supply, as I believe the owner also owns a chicken farm. When you come into Sepang town, look for this new building contruction on your right. It is nearby that area, you won't miss it.

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Added on March 8, 2012, 12:25 pmps: The main reasons why male chicks are usually culled is not because they are unwanted, but rather because of the utility of the birds. Chicken varieties meant for egg production do not have very good muscle building, but are able to produce a lot of eggs. Varieties like broilers are bred to be superb muscle builders, so you will notice that within a few weeks, they are all ready for the the market.

If you want a dual purpose bird, try looking for Holland Red/Giants. They are really huge birds, and superb egg layers. My first generation Holland Giants weighed in an average of 3kg per bird for the males, and slightly less for the females. The hens laid nearly 1 egg per bird each day throughout their reproductive lifetime. Size of eggs weren't AAA, but they still managed to get into the A-grade classification. My subsequent generations were bred for egg laying ability and meat quality (rather than weight), so the average weights were a little lower, about 2.5kg per bird.

This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 8 2012, 12:27 PM

Hi MJ, going back to my farm (back to the hills) this afternoon, sent off my guests last night.

I am only familiar on the western side of Sabah (inclusive of Ranau). I "heard" there are development in most major area towards agriculture in Sabah. The figures quoted above is acres/hectors? I remember reading from Lembaga Getah (Sabah) that their developmental cost is about $14,800 / hect. Land clearing, access road (within the land), and planting for rubber trees.
I guess we could do it at a much lower cost on a small holder basis (where the owner/partner is involve to minimize cost).

Sooner or later, the union thing / minimum wages shall take effect in Sabah too. At least I think it's easier to source for foreign labor here than in Penisular. Just applied for 5 person on my own, am still waiting for the final approval on 15th March. Applying the permit on our own saves a lot of $. Levi for plantation workers is only $510 per head.

Transport cost is definitely higher here, but over the western coast, the mills are quite close and lots of collection centers. The Only problem is they collect on credit, payment once a month. Most of the lands that I had seen, already have ex-timber trials, hence not too bad. Just need to maintain it. Just need to worry about the roads within your land.
I had been estimating that a minimum acreage of 70 acres (in 1 location) to be feasible commercially.
Shall try to find out more on Rubber Vs Palm Oil, maybe there is an opportunity in knocking.

Mr Farmer:

The figure is on per hectare basis. Thanks for pointing that out. It is too ingrained in me that I often forget others are not aware which unit I am using... Haa...

Is the RM14,800 total costs or yearly cost? Is definitely plausible that rubber development costs less that oil palm, as the seedling cost of oil palm alone is pretty darn high. But also keep in mind that oil palm does not require intensive labor, processing, or costly maintenance. Get it right from the start, and just maintain standards along the way is enough. In addition, the land that was being developed was moderate peat soil, so a lot more extra money needed to prepare the land.

I'm not too familiar with rubber pricing for smallholders, but I believe latex is now about RM7-RM8 per kg farmgate? So 1 hectare with about 2 tons of yield per year should bring in about RM16,000 or so, whereas for oil palm, 25 tons at RM640 per ton FFB will also give RM16,000.

The difference, however, is in the biology and harvesting of the crop. Rubber takes almost 4-6 years before first harvest, and harvesting requires almost daily tapping before sunrise. Although it does mean work is normally done before lunchtime, and the farmer can do other things later in the day, it is still requires daily work. For oil palm, first significant harvest is usually after 2-3 years of cultivation, and harvesting is only done about twice a month with each round of harvest likely taking not more than 3 days of work.

Sure, I believe we should try to find out more about this, but maybe give more focus on rubber. I believe there are already too many threads on oil palm.

ps: I think I should clarify some things about rubber tapping - the frequency of tapping is actually dependent on three things:- (a) Type of clone and normal internal pressure of rubber trees (b) Application (or not) of ethylene (c ) Type of cut (tapping system).

There are a few types of clones which allows for almost daily rubber tappings, but I don't believe they are available here in Malaysia. Furthermore, those clones tend to be selected to adapt to higher rainfall and ground water retention, i.e. the quality of latex is more watery compared to RRIM clones which have thicker and higher quality latex. For most RRIM clones, tapping is done about 2-3 times a week.

The tapping duration is also dependent on the skill of the tapper. Very experienced tappers can complete tapping a tree in about 20 seconds, so in about 3 hours, 500 trees (a standard hectare) can be cleared. In Malaysia, some of our clones can be planted at about 700 trees per hectare, but even then, tapping is normally completed before 9am, plus 2-4 hours for the latex to run, with collection and delivery of latex normally finished before lunchtime. Cup lumps and tree lace are collected either in the evenings, or the next day.

Talking about opportunities in rubber, do you guys know that rubber is listed as one of the NKEAs under agriculture? Just a short news article for your reading pleasure:

http://www.theborneopost.com/2012/02/26/hi...er-to-the-fore/

http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?sec=...arawak/10051787



This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 9 2012, 03:59 PM

Thanks for the links MJ.
14.8K is the total (average) cost.
Base on the data that I've collected, my estimate for Palm Oil & Rubber should be about the same (depending on market fluctuation).
Was thinking that due to local condition, high transportation cost, Rubber may have an edge over Palm oil due to lower weight & easier logistic. Also Rubber get paid cash here, but Palm Oil is on credit, monthly account.
Saplings are cheaper for Rubber, range from $3.50 to $5.50
End of the day, I guess it's the experience that counts, whether the planter is more comfortable with Rubber or Palm Oil.

Mr Farmer:

RM14,800 for total development cost is cheap, and totally acceptable for rubber. Thanks for pointing out the price of rubber saplings. Based on these prices, then there isn't much difference in cost for planting 1 hectare with oil palm or rubber (i.e. 700 rubber saplings would cost about RM2,450 vs. 148 oil palm seedlings costing RM2,960).

Sorry, but what estimates? Returns? Development costs? At current prices, yes, the returns are comparable. Also, it is quite likely that much of the machines used on larger plantations are not required for smallholdings, therefore making development costs cheaper. I believe one JCB is more than enough to get all the job done on a few hectares of land within a single day. But as I've pointed out, there is still a difference in biology and inputs which makes the cultivation and harvesting of either crop unique to its own.

From a business point of view, it makes a lot more sense to do cash business rather than credit. If the oil palm fruit buyers seem to have trouble paying in cash, or are reluctant to do so, then maybe rubber is a better choice. Over here, many mills and collection centers for oil palm bunches pay cash upfront.

And yes, you are absolutely right. Experience counts. Not to badmouth rubber, but it was only in the recent years that natural rubber has been getting fair prices. Before 2003, rubber prices really sucked, and synthetic rubber was very dominant in the marketplace. Fortunately (or unfortunately), petroleum prices started skyrocketing, making synthetic rubbers expensive, and thus a return to natural rubber. From just controlling about 30% of the market share, natural rubber has now bounced back to controlling nearly 50% of the market share. And this trend is expected to continue. Who knows, maybe we'll see natural rubber taking on 70% of the market again, like before the Korean war.

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Added on March 12, 2012, 11:23 amfyi: http://truesunray.com/gallery1.html

In case anyone trying to get rubber seedlings.

This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 12 2012, 11:23 AM

there's a supplier in Bahau, NS who rears many types of chicken. But, unfortunately..i dun hv his no...sorry a. As for turkey..i'm not sure bout the cooking part...have not cooked one myself...^^ ...will update u guys when i try ...hehe..Thanks to all Shifus....

Thanks MJ, for the link. Didn't know that there a nursery there @ Bongawan. Am looking at the RRIM3001 which they claim they have.
Am also thinking of starting a small nursery, but don't have any grafting experience. Wonder if it's difficult. Had "thrown" about 40 rubber seeds on to ground last week. Waiting for it to germinate, then transfer to poly bag. Shall use these to try our hands on budding.

If it works, then shall get some certified clones and use it to harvest bud stick. Start a nursery, then plant some rubber trees.

Mr Farmer:

That's a good way to begin. I'm doing something similar now, but it is more for fun and self education. The seeds I'm using are from feral populations in Penang, the remnants of the very early rubber clones. High variability within the grove, which is very good news for "plant breeders". Heheh.

Grafting isn't difficult, actually. Once you get the hang of things, it's a breeze. It is the maintaining part that is more challenging.


Speaking of variability, I would like to share a little bit on an experiment I did using domesticated guppies. The aim of the experiment was to develop an alternative breeding method with the same advantages to the commonly used line breeding technique, but without the drawbacks. FYI, line breeding is a very powerful breeding method that is very selective, resulting in the creation of many unique lines of animals, plants etc. The selectively bred lines have the advantage of being very stable (i.e. it doesn't change form easily), and when used to create hybrids, produces very strong hybrids with great vigour. However, the main drawbacks are that such lines carry with them many genetic diseases, are usually less prolific (low reproductive ability), and take up a lot of space during the selection process.

The method I developed is based on mass selection method, which means instead of going for very specific individuals, I target groups of individuals. I started off with low grade delta tail red guppy males, which were then added to a population of commonplace roundtail guppy females with red/yellow tails (as the gene controlling red and yellow pigments are related). Once this original population of guppies began breeding, I then added in spadetail red guppy males, which bred with not only the adult females, but later with their 1st generation offspring as well. I added one more population of roundtail guppy females with maroon tails, and then left the population to develop on their own by natural selective pressures.

The results were amazing, I have to say. All individuals are blond skinned. The males have Endler-type body markings in red/yellow pigments, and a bright red tail form I would like to call "halfmoon", just like the halfmoon betta fishes popular in the past. The females have pale yellow tail with streaks of red, which are closer to roundtail, and not very broad. For me, this population is very stable, as every successive generation closely matches the parents, with only very little variability (mostly in body markings), although the major attributes such as fin form and color stays the same.

My inspiration came from observing zebra herds. These herds can be huge during migration periods, numbering thousands, but are usually small, with just a few dozen individuals. I always wondered how did zebras maintain their population genetics, given their usually small herds, without leading to any serious genetic diseases. I noticed that population mixing during the migration periods resulted in individuals moving in and out of herds. So I theorized that by adding or changing certain individuals within a breeding population, it is possible to keep the gene pool wide and active enough to mitigate genetic diseases, while at the same still maintain some sort of conformity amongst the population. Given, that is, the contributing populations already have some level of conformity at the start.

My second experiment involved a different color group, the turquoise/blue guppies (delta tail males, round tail females). This population is still not very stable as I also started them much later. The offsprings are still a mixture, and sometimes I get young fish with red tails and dark blue bodies (tuxedo-form). Also, most of the population still have "seed" markings on their tails, which denotes some level of divergence still present in the population. Fortunately, the "seed" patterns are a dark blue or turquoise color, which is only noticeable when viewed upclose. However, I'm glad to notice that all individuals have either a turquoise or dark blue body with strong irridescence covering at least 70% on the body. My aim is to develop a population with solid color and irridescence over 95% of the body, and a firm color for the tail.

In all cases, natural selection resulted in weak individuals being culled or killed on their own. I do artificially intervene in this process, especially with the turquoise/blue guppies, by removing the red tail individuals and keeping them in a separate tank where I'm doing a third, more extreme genetic mixing experiment.


Anyway, that's for fish. I've also initiated a similar project for cacao, which is where chocolate comes from. Cacao is a real finicky plant, prone to diseases, and are extremely selective of the pollen source it requires to produce crop. FYI, most cacao do not accept pollen from itself or a close relative, and needs a pollen donor that is at least >60% distant in genetics in order to produce crop. My aim, is to develop a stable, disease tolerant population of rare cacao trees that are able to accept not only pollen from close relatives that are <50% distant, but also pollen from itself (i.e. self pollinating). So far, my collection has been derived from feral populations established in abandoned estates nearly 50-60 years ago. However, my approach differs a little in that I primarily target trees that are isolated from other cacao trees (at least 100m away, or more). So far, I've only sampled 1 tree, with the other collection being taken from more commonly found trees with unique structure and attributes. Trees that I select are largely the rare Trinitario variety, while the lone tree (which happens to be able to self pollinate) is a Criollo, a near extinct variety of cacao with white seeds. My hope is that by combining the genetics of Trinitario and Criollo, I could create a population of stable Criollo in Malaysia.

This post has been edited by Michael J.: Mar 13 2012, 09:23 AM