AM got slighty Faster attack but FV got Backtrack 25%, Bash 25%.

With Backtrack and Bash, FV can kill AM already in 1v1 even without chronos.

So can see who got more advantage here?

Cheers,
v_viper88

So a decent AM with a very itchy "b" finger won't blink away on seeing FV timewalk in at a bad spot?

ROTFLMAO. Try playing AM sometime. Spiritbreaker's aura doesn't show extra damage, neither does Ursa's ulti or swipes.

Mana Break. Plus higher attack and base move speed (320 vs FV 300). FV will get the heck harassed out of him. Timewalk needs 120 mana, which is quite a lot at early/midgame.

Can u blink away if got stun by Timelock?

FV or AM can kill range creep faster at lvl 1? What does this shows?
AT lvl 1 FV kill AM in direct 1v1.
At higher lvl AM mana break dmg sure help increase more dmg but at mid/end game FV got more advantage in slow, evade, stun and long stun.

FV TW slow and TL stun cant harrassed AM?

Most of the time, AM will think twice or more before want to harrass FV.
Even AM get basher, FV got alreadr have TL 25% and BT 25 %, who will get stunned more? High attck dmg & movement wont help much if got stun by FV.

If AM got stun by FV, most likely AM will be dead 1st in a 1v1 direct fight early/mid/end game.

Yeah, who got a free 25 % basher 1st?

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 25 2007, 11:04 PM

timelock stun is pretty unreliable at early levels while mana break always hits. Level 7 +64 damage....better than a relic. Your free basher ain't going to do much without attspeed and damage to back it up. Level 9...10 hits from FV = ~15 hits from AM. Mana pool 3-4xx all gone. Void is a nice 200 nuke too. Maybe FV'll get 3 bash hits in if you're lucky. Bear in mind AM will be chasing or running away with blink, while FV will be stuck with inferior ms and no mana.

AM harassing usually means 1 or 2 hits more for AM due to higher attspeed and movespeed. Harassing, hit and run, blink/break, NOT head on fighting. Add creep denying into the combo, and FV will be lucky to get his ulti by AM lv 7. Early game, mana break HURTS. Midgame, FV will have his work cut out against AM's superior level/items. Lategame, FV will only be able to win if he has gotten to farm a decent item or two.

And as for killing ranged creep faster at level 1....well, i wouldn't stop you from crossing the whole creep wave to get to my ranged creep. And i'll happily 1v1 you if you attack first in the middle of the wave.

Timelock Unreliable? FV is also agility hero, at lvl 7 or more will normaly get about 1-2 wraiths and tread, chances of timelock kick in good and it will deal extra bonus dmg. + good time chronos will give AM a good bashing already.
AM has no basher, its either he blink away or gamble his life to stand 1v1 vs FV.

AM with lvl 4 mana break 4 only add additional 38 dmg not 64.
You can check here.
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html
Its my mistake saying there is no dmg before clearing off enemy mana. The dmg is slightly more 50% below the actual mana break attck dmg.


FV tW is 1300 range, its much longer distance compare to AM short distance blink and it can slow 40%. FV can ambush/harrass AM more. Why FV want to run away? His TL an BT doesnt require mana, he will just stand and fight AM face to face direct till AM die. Its AM tats blink away most of the time.. Do u know tat FV BT 25% can also avoid AM ult - void? FV also can deny creeps. Both also melee hero but FV have more survival skill with BT which can hlp avoid dmg from creeps compare to AM.

AM mana break mostly hurt more in middle or end game but by tat time, FV already increase its agility more and it will have advantage to stun AM and deal extra more dmg.

Well tat 1v1 attck creep is just at example only, it shows who dmg is higher early game at lvl1 .

AM is good but i still prefer FV.

FV vs AM with the same lvl, hp, items, and both are good players, i'll bet on FV coz his advantage is just too obvious.


Cheers,
v_viiper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 07:53 PM

this is the first time i see people say lvl 1 faceless kill AM in a 1 on 1. i don think faceless can match with AM in 1on1 lv 1,unless he get gaunlet and stout shield.but that also if AM didnt get stout shield and gaunlet.if both same item.i don think faceless can even run. unless faceless is play safe game style and by a pro, or else he wont survive till late game. if i see a faceless inside a game,he is food for my side for sure. even timewalk cant save him all the time.just like blink can save AM all the time.

Wa.. this is the first time u heard about this?

When i beat AM 1v1 at PUBs, normally they will tell me FV is imbalance coz can beat 3-5 heroes!!

Cheers,
v_viper88

why not?
lv 1 timelock and lv 1 mana burn, if AM has no mana to burn AFTER FV timelocks AM, he's toast...

that also is if his 10% timelock really come out just in time.AM att speed is higher than FV if not mistaken. so for me,it still based on that 10%. in term of attack speed ,AM for sure advantage (armor around the same, 4 and 4.1) base damage too, AM 56 (46+50/2 +8) while FV 61(58+64/2). when FV whack 2 times,AM already did 3. (att speed CD time).

YOu can go try AM lvl1 with mana break lvl1 vs FV lvl1, with/wihout lvl1 Timelock.
Who will die 1st?

AM - 454 hp
min 46 dmg +10 mana break dmg
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html

FV - 473 hp
min 58 dmg
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-46-DarkTerror...celessVoid.html

FV win coz got extra dmg for every hits he give to AM. FV can kill range or creeps faster then AM at lvl 1 also.

Mid/end game... AM maybe have slightly higher attk speed but still will lose if get stun by FV and some of AM attcks wont hit due to FV BT.. yeah.. if get Chronos by FV den AM will lose more HP and if surive sure blink and run..

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 01:58 PM

lol ya i am suprised he doesnt know that

I'm not suprise coz most of the other Dota details also i dont really know in detail.

At least i provide some info/details and admit my mistakes if its wrong better than u just know to laugh and contribute nothing.


Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 02:10 PM

well i am surpised because u seem to know quite alot but u dont know basic hahah

Ya..the AM mana break deal less extra physical dmg compare the full Mana dmg.
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html

Some says its the same dmg like the mana dmg.. got ppl says at lvl 4 mana break it deals extra 64 dmg. Maybe u think like tat also ?

Some ppl also dont know ma.. If u know better then why not say earlier ?
Share info lar.. dun just know how to laugh only.


Cheers,
v_viper88

i donu it's correct or not but , AM's CD time for his next attack is 1.19second while FV is 1.40 second, donnu why u say FV kill range/creeps faster than AM? btw,it's from dota-allstars the time.and how FV get extra damage every hit? the 10%? anyway, if in theory talk,AM will win if less bash from FV(attack speed),FV win if every hit he give is that 10% bash.

but if play by two pro in ReaL game, things might change. strategy does matter.hit and run? direct attack?so i cant say FV or AM will win for sure.

If u check my early posting, i've tested since got ppl says at lvl 1 AM can kill range creeps faster than FV lvl 1..

The results:
AM with lvl 1 mana break needs 6 hit to kill a range creep.
FV with lvl 1 Timelock needs 5 hit only to kill a range creep (timelock not even activated yet)

So if FV and AM at lvl 1 fight, FV will win.

Few 0.00+ secs diff won't have much effect at lvl 1.

In real game if both heroes are good and have good items mid/end game, i'll still bet on FV coz its BT and TL already gives big advantage in 1v1 direct fight.

Eg:
FV at lvl 25 with Butterfly, Radiance, Burize, treads, MOM , etcs is hard to fight direct without disabling him first. High evasion, high stun and AOE dmg/stun....

AM main advantage fast attck speed but without any bashers or disabler item he wont stand any chance against FV. He'll have hard time hitting FV, alwys get timelock and even worst trap in chronos before die.

Its not difficult to see who will win or have more advantage rite ?

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 07:51 PM

mana break works on the melee creep? their base dmg is different,of cause it FV dmg creep more it not about the *att damage cause kill a creep faster* ,anyway im not suggesting AM is better than FV.(btw,why so hyper? ) both hero can be tapau if opponent team got 2 guinsoo

U mean add extra dmg to AM base attck dmg?
Yes, it add additional damage. If the enemy have mana and hp, AM mana break will damage both enemy mana and hp where it will dmg the mana more compare to the hp. If the enemy have 0 mana, AM will only have the additonal dmg add to his base attck dmg, not the full mana burn dmg. See below:

Anti-Mage Mana Break ()
Each attack dissipates mana based on spell level. Orb Effect.
Level 1 - Burns 16 mana and deals 10 damage.
Level 2 - Burns 32 mana and deals 19 damage.
Level 3 - Burns 48 mana and deals 29 damage.
Level 4 - Burns 64 mana and deals 38 damage.

I reply to the early guy tat saying AM lvl1 with lvl1 mana break can kill range creep faster and can kill FV at lvl 1 coz its wrong ma..
AM base dmg + its mana break tat deal extra 10 dmg still lose to FV base dmg.

Faster attck speed at lvl 1 is not much help for AM also.
FV can get wraiths or IAS item to match AM attck speed later coz FV already lead with bashing skill and evasion skill...

2 guinsoos.. wow...

Guinsoo`s Scythe of Vyse $ 5175
Gives:
+150% Mana Regeneration
+25 Intellegence
+35 Damage
Activate: Polymorph
600 Range 3.25 Second Duration

Tat is about 6.5 secs disable skill tat cost more than 10K for 2 Guinsoos...

Faceless Void Backtrack skill can avoid being Polymorphed sometimes 25% , and if FV get Linkens, it will helps alot also and lastly the mighty BKB.....
Can you stop a FV with BKB activated?

Yeah, if enemy get BKB or activated avatar to vs FV, most likely they still will lose. I remember in one of the games, Naix with 2 bashers, tread, bracers activated Avatar and chiong vs FV.. but he still got trapped in Chronos and get whack to pieces.

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 11:21 PM

Sigh, yet another painful round of mathcraft in order to prove a point...

1st, at level 1, AM has 56 damage, as compared to FV's 58 damage. Divide that by attack rate, and you end up with AM 47.0 DPS (damage per second) vs FV 41.4 DPS. As per your figures, AM will need 7.14 secs to kill the caster compared to 7.0 on FV. A difference of 0.14 seconds, which might go either way, depending on damage variance. The figures for mana break are after armour/spell resistance modifiers. And, timelock wouldn't make any difference for FV to kill the ranged creep since it does no damage.

Using base attspeed since i'm lazy to dig up the figures for attspeed increases, AM will be doing 8.4, 16.0, 24.3, 31.9 EXTRA DPS for level 1,3,5 and 7 (mana break damage/attack rate). That's better than a demon edge. Plus, AM has slightly higher agi gain over FV, which means DPS will be even more. Think of all the possibilities for harassing/farming/denying.

Another factor in the AM/FV farming/denying arena is attack animation. AM has a freaking FAST attack animation which means it'll be easier to deny and farm. Notice i place a lot of emphasis on denying, since FV will lag in levels against an actively denying/harassing AM. Anybody who has ever soloed a good AM will know that AM is a real pain in the rump. He can probably hit and run fast enough that FV won't be able to retaliate, given normal reflexes and FV's much slower attack animation. Don't forget AM gains more armour over time too which will matter a lot in a harassing arena.

And, Mana break does NOT add extra damage if your target is out of mana.

"Mana break does NOT add extra damage if your target is out of mana."quote=snorlax

I'm still not really clear about the AM mana break damage. The details below show it burns mana and deals dmg.

Anti-Mage Mana Break ()
Each attack dissipates mana based on spell level. Orb Effect.
Level 1 - Burns 16 mana and deals 10 damage.
Level 2 - Burns 32 mana and deals 19 damage.
Level 3 - Burns 48 mana and deals 29 damage.
Level 4 - Burns 64 mana and deals 38 damage


So, using mana break;
If the enemy has mana, AM can burn mana and deal dmg rite ?
If the enemy has no mana, AM only deal dmg? or no deal dmg at all?


Yes, i do agree AM has faster agility attck speed which helps in denying/farming/harrass. FV can get wraiths and other IAS item to match AM speed/amour early game and can deny/farm/harrass +add dmg as well too.

The main advantage for FV is it already have basher and evasion skill, which helps alot to survive and stay longer while farming.

Whereas AM need to farm alot and longer time to get basher /butterfly in order to match FV skills. If AM also go for IAS item, definitely his agility and attck speed is higher than FV but he'll lose out mid/end game due to no disabler skill to fight FV in 1v1 direct..

Which hero will have a hard time to farm for items and catching up? I say its AM.

Yeah, thks for spending time to do the mathcraft.

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 27 2007, 09:33 AM