Was looking at Mara X initially after Zellleonhart recommended it, ended up going for Bianca.. just now trying to see if can slot in to the current order slot by supplier. It has all the bells and whistles and a rather complete package.. Looks good too on the counter. Am starting own bean roasting so having flow control would give me more manual adjustments to play around.

Did a lot of reading past couple days comparing the Bianca vs Profitec Pro 600, 700, ECM Synchronika, Rocket Cinquantotto. The Bianca is the best value of the bunch and i do see alot of user support in forums. As what Zellleonhart says, flow control, bottomless PF, option to direct plumb in water and rotary pump in one complete package is a steal. The only pain point i see is there's no official distri here in Malaysia except for a few importers. But they do tell me that they can service and repair the machines here with parts provided by Lelit. It's also a PITA to order the stock, so patience is required. Profitec and Rocket are supported by more established distributors.

I decided to go with E61 group dual boiler because of the established design and ease of repair (relatively, because most of the parts are off the shelf commercial items). I'm abit of a handy person, so as long there's user guide & manuals, i can do minor repairs / service on my own. This is my 2nd machine as i started off with Breville Barista Express almost 6 years ago and after much thought, the HX E61 is not that big a jump of an upgrade. I want to get something that will allow me to explore further without limitation and have manual controls on hand to play around.

Oh yea, make sure u also set aside a budget to get a reasonably good grinder otherwise you'll not be able to fully utilize a high end machine.. i currently already have a breville SGP and plan to get a Niche Zero (when it is available to order)... Such a pain to get equipments nowadays... Got money buy also cannot get.. hahaha.. i realized that the Covid siituation has made alot of ppl start to explore home brewing and machines are flying off the shelves..

This post has been edited by raist86: Jan 25 2021, 09:33 AM

You can make great coffees with Delonghi. Don't simply put down with the bad reviews out there.

I am using EC860 and non-pressurized porta filter with beautiful results.
I had quite some inconsistencies in the initial days (months to be precise). I have adapted a few changes in my expresso making techniques along the way. I achieved the best consistencies with the use of paper filters (both top and bottom).

I am using 47mm paper filters (RM6 in lazada for 50pcs) and quite some fine grinding for my expresso. Please google up for those paper filter techniques for better understanding.

**Grinding consistency is definitely utmost important. I am using 1Zpresso JX-pro manual grinding, which gives best grinding consistencies. Not sure about other brands, but if you think you have good grinding consistencies, add the paper filter technique to see if that helps.

home hx got 3 types of characteristics...dragon, mixer & agnostics... mixer will give you very stable temp, dragon needs cooling flush, agnostics needs heating flush... some of us purposely go with hx and not dual boiler because we want ability to temp surf...so its a desired feature not a problem
not really an issue in real world...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 25 2021, 10:58 AM

Thanks, I didn't know got these 3 types of HX. True that, if someone desires temp surfing, go for it. I for one can't imagine why I would want temp surfing if I can get the exact temp I want without guessing how much water to flush or installing a group thermometer.

On top of that, for Rocket Appartamento - it doesn't even have a PID to set your target temp. Without a group head thermometer you're shooting in the dark, it could be 90C this shot and 96C the next. Of course I don't have experience myself, it could be learned, but my point is spending 8k, there are better machines with temp stability compared to this unit. Can't say the same for all other HX of course, I am just replying him about Appartamento specifically.

Also to point out that temp surfing is almost a must for most typical HX machines, and it is *usually* not desired by most users.

I'm not sure you're a seller, supporter or whatover. I'm bias on the model not the brand. Things should be transparent across here, to tell all coffee lover out there.

Especially when things cost more than a "china machine" and couldn't extract at same course level. It's not about the method, it's about the capability extracting the complexity of each bean. If you still persist, defend yourselves at Hoffman then..

I'm not sure about 6001 model, but 7001 definitely couldn't froth thick enough for latte art. The pressure head and price are the main strength for this machine.

For tasting bean complexity, I would strongly recommend this machine. Especially you can experiment ultra extraction (up to oilly shot).

same reason why some people wants flow profiling...temp profiling just another option to play with brewing...

yes agree got plenty of good machines out there

WOW! I sense some deep level of dissatisfaction here. Not sure what is your story, but I have no hidden agenda here.

My only intention is to give a sensible hope to a fellow delonghi owner that the machine is not a bad one. I want him to get the best out of a purchase he had made. I was at his situation. Almost giving up on the model. As mentioned, after months of trying, i get the best shot, and that too with consistent result. When you understand the techniques, even when you switch to different beans, you able to get best extraction within a few tries.

Different techniques works best for different models and i am happy i found the best that suits my taste.

The last part of your statement is the funniest. Why i need to defend myself at Hoffman? Our intention are different!

Wokies....time to keep discussions cordial. Let's talk about Profiling.

Recently there was some discussion about temperature surfing, related to (at least some) HX machines. Would you consider this temperature profiling? IMHO temperature surfing uses the characteristics of the machine and the time between the cooling flush and the actual pull to determine the brewing temperature. On dual boiler machines with PID, the brewing temperature can (usually) be dialled in, and achieve the same objective (possibly easier).

While all of this is well and good, I would propose true temperature profiling will require something like a Decent DE1/+. This can actually plot a temperature curve through the pull. For example, you could start at 94°C, then ramp down to 90°C at the end.

Similarly, pressure and flowrate profiling wouldn't be just the ability to adjust to pressure and flowrate, but to be able to do this throughout the pull. In this area, manual levers can deliver this similar to very high end machines like the GS3 and Lelit Bianca.

Your thots?

Hi Bob! Very solid points. A cooling flush to compensate the HX temps is not temperature profiling. To me, any profiling means you have a way to decide the exact parameters of the variable. For example (build on top of your example), start at 94°C for 15 seconds and ramp down to 90°C over the next 20 seconds - This is temperature profiling and for home machines, probably only the Decent can really achieve it.

Boiler machines regardless of HX or DB can't do accurate little changes like this on the group head.

Coming from the flair, I do miss feeling the pressure when I pull a shot! Planning to add the flow control paddle to my Mara X later. And thanks for your acupuncture needles back then - I am still using them to WDT and they work wonders.

i feel that there's only so much one can do with one's equipment before heading into fluff territory. Temperature profiling (ramping up / ramping down water temp THROUGHOUT the brew process) i feel falls into that territory. No problem if one can afford a super high tech machine or a DE1, by all means play with that variable if you have it. Otherwise, water temp should be maintained as a constant variable as to have a consistent outcome everytime. I believe for E61 grouphead machines, that consistent temp is what the designers are trying to achieve to varying degree of success. It's a design that almost 60+ years old and definitely has hit the limit of what it's capable off. Having said that, i like the old school charm and simplicity of the design. Having a hunk of brass/stainless steel is also quite omph. I feel making coffee (proper coffee) should be part science, part art..

I used to didn't believe in pre-infusion & slow ramp up of brew pressure until i kept having issues with inconsistent and jam up the shot. It was so frustrating and a waste of coffee beans. It was a good thing that my current machine allows manual override of the shot button... after reading up abit more and using a proper scale, i do 10 sec pre-infusion before letting the machine go full pressure on the puck... out comes rich honey 90% of the time... the other 10% is human error of tamping or not distributing the coffee properly...

This post has been edited by raist86: Jan 25 2021, 04:15 PM

There's indeed a lot to love about the E61 HX design. If you check out the internals though I wouldn't call it simplicity, but genius.

Espresso really has a lot of variables to play around with, and the bottom line is we are dealing with an organic product. Every bean different! I guess that's also part of the appeal. This is why my quest for espresso machines has pretty much stopped with the Flair (at least until the 58 comes out ....heh heh).

Exactly.. I don't need to play with temperature profiling too, I just need accurate and constant temperature throughout the shot.

That chunk of brass is why I like E61 too, it's just some kind of romance... Even though it needs some maintenance but I have learnt a lot about the mechanism in the recent weeks and I'm glad that I probably know which part is faulty / need service in the long run. It's fun!

Can't wait to get my hands on the peddle to play with the flow profiling. Though I appreciate Mara X's slow ramp up of pressure to 9 bar over 10~13 seconds.

Nice choice ! So I assume bianca will not be an issue to pull 6-8 cups milk expresso back to back right? Mind to share where and how much did you book for it? For the grinder, dont you think that NZ is not suitable when you have guests visiting? Well I think its depending how frequent your guests are visiting you.

Planning to order it from Coffee Xperts Sdn Bhd. Would like to ask if anyone here has dealt with them before? Because they are the only one i've contacted so far that is able to order and provide me a timeline on arrival. have to make a sizable deposit though to confirm.

I think the Bianca can handle that workload... plus it's not like my friends come over all the time.. haha.. especially now with MCO. Taking the time to do it also gives me time to chat with them when making coffee.. Most of my friends that come over are coffee kaki also.

please lah... don't call it fluff just because you don't understand the hx hydraulic flow and heat input and how it affects brew temperature...

try search "hx hump"...you should be getting results from h-b circa 15-18 yrs ago...plenty of discussions and scace charts during that time... and plenty of discussions even now...

imho doesn't matter what you call as you as your flushing/waiting actions result in a desired and repeatable brew temperature profile... i used to temp surf using the steam switch on my sbdu gaggia classic...i can have a flat profile, a declining profile or a hump profile, depending on when i switch on and off the steam switch... i also had a dimmer connected to do pre-infusion and pressure profiling... a lot of manual work but worth the experimentation... the de1+ employs similar technique by varying heat input and pump pressure/flow automatically... you should be also to find temp profiling using the gaggia around that time period too...

all these pressure and temperature profiling started because people wanna mimic spring level group which they find produces a superior cup vs conventional hx and db... fyi, the bosco and izzo groups has a 2-3°C temp drop at the end of the brew

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 25 2021, 06:12 PM

Thanks mate guess it's the machine then. Appreciate the feedback.

Hi Veterans

any recommendations for a cheap espresso machine?
wonder if it's realistic if budget is 300 to 600 700...

right now I am doing v60 filter brewing. hahah

thxthxthx

I believe you've done a lot of research prior to putting your money down.

Assuming you have no space limitation, didn't care about look, objectively, is it accurate to say there's no contest between Mara X & Elizabeth, with the DB coming up top? Basically in terms of use, it seems that due to the inherit nature of DB, it is faster to heat up, more consistent -- Mara X with the control addresses this but your later post mentioned that if you pull a lot of consecutive shots you'll need to let it cool down?

I've studied the LCC, and seems like the Profitec 300 & 500 is no contest for the Lelit Elizabeth.

My requirements are consistent, fuss free, 1 to 2 cups of espresso everyday, and maybe a cappuccino every other day. Strictly home use. Due to my low use it seems Mara X would also fit my bill, but would like to hear your view -- and see if it validates my finding.

And I agree with you, looks wise Mara X wins by far. So far. hahaha. But I care more about convenience and consistency over looks. No flushing, low maintenance and fuss free more important. Before I take my coffee I'm blur and easily aggravated.

Nespresso. You said cheap right? Pros: Consistent, convenient, fast as hell -- no Espresso machine can match it from the time you turn on the power, save electricity too. Cons: costly pod, coffee is just so so, it will never be great. BUT if you're not drinking straight espresso, not making milk based drink, and making all those pattern-pattern drink, add sugar, add syrup etc. then it is fine. I have to say, espresso con panna with the right dark roast pod.. is very drinkable.

Any milk based drink with it is... utter rubbish. other than iced latte LOL. straight up espresso....its just not good.

This post has been edited by Jason: Jan 31 2021, 12:05 PM

Yes you're right, assuming space is not an issue and I am okay with the look, Elizabeth wins hands down with some small caveat:
1. No flow profiling kit as future upgrade since that's only applicable for E61. Not an issue for most people
2. SOME said that Mara X has slightly better build quality, but I can't confirm. It might just be a false impression because the E61 giant group head might make you feel it's better quality
3. Mara X has both Steam and Brew pressure manometer, both are analog and I love it. Elizabeth only has the brew pressure manometer. Not a deal breaker for most.

For Mara X, there's an ideal time window between shots so that the temp is well maintain. Based on my testing, it's between 1-3 minutes.

For example, your temp setting is 93-94C. Once you exceed the 3 minutes *after the first shot*, it will slowly go up to 95 C (almost 1C per minute). So if you manage workflow to pull the second shot within 3 minutes, there's no need to wait. After 3 minutes, either you wait for another 15 minutes, OR you can flush some water to cool it down. After all, it's still an HX. For my usage, I pull max 2 shots back to back. So the 3 minutes window is perfectly fine for me.

It is close to a month now and I will still get a Mara X if I am offered a choice. But in the future if I move to a bigger house, I am definitely considering a dual boiler.

That said, Mara X being a E61 machine definitely requires more fiddling and maintenance. Lubing the lever cam is a must after chemical backflush. For a 100% peace of mind, non-E61 is better. I like tweaking stuff so I went with the tougher route!