I am not the most experienced but I have researched a lot in the recent 1 year for my Flair replacement - including the two models you mentioned. I ended up with a Lelit Mara X.

You can do some additional research, but basically with or without PID, both Profitec Pro 500 and Appartamento are still single boiler HX machines. In 2021, it's quite hard to recommend a traditional HX machine regardless the PID because you still need to do flushes to surf the temperature. The PP500 is good at stabilizing the boiler temperature, but not the group head temperature which is more important.

The Appartamento does look fantastic, but it is so outdated and IMO not really worth it if this is your second machine, there are better choices out there.

I ended up going with the Lelit Mara X - which is a single boiler HX machine as well, but it has a very unique innovation where in the brew priority mode, it doesn't operate like a traditional HX. The dual PID and smart controller actually stabilizes the Group Head temp very accurately down to 1 degree C. You can read more about Mara X, but this points out the advantage over the PP500 very well: https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/...nd_the/g4bckw9/

The price is around the same as Appartamento as well.

Mara X aside, I recommend the following machines.
1. Lelit Elizabeth (Dual boiler at around RM7000. Throws PP 500 and Appartmento in the dust. I didnt't get it because my counter space is too small and I prefer the E61 look of Mara X more)
2. Breville Dual Boiler (The very underrated one, it can do pressure profiling and all for a very good price. Again, space is an issue for me, and I don't like breville's aesthetics and parts longevity)
3. Crem One 2B Dual

DaveC from the UK have very detailed reviews for Mara X, Elizabeth and Crem One at his website: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com (but his Crem One is the top of the line version).

Hi Veterans

any recommendations for a cheap espresso machine?
wonder if it's realistic if budget is 300 to 600 700...

right now I am doing v60 filter brewing. hahah

thxthxthx

Yes you're right, assuming space is not an issue and I am okay with the look, Elizabeth wins hands down with some small caveat:
1. No flow profiling kit as future upgrade since that's only applicable for E61. Not an issue for most people
2. SOME said that Mara X has slightly better build quality, but I can't confirm. It might just be a false impression because the E61 giant group head might make you feel it's better quality
3. Mara X has both Steam and Brew pressure manometer, both are analog and I love it. Elizabeth only has the brew pressure manometer. Not a deal breaker for most.

For Mara X, there's an ideal time window between shots so that the temp is well maintain. Based on my testing, it's between 1-3 minutes.

For example, your temp setting is 93-94C. Once you exceed the 3 minutes *after the first shot*, it will slowly go up to 95 C (almost 1C per minute). So if you manage workflow to pull the second shot within 3 minutes, there's no need to wait. After 3 minutes, either you wait for another 15 minutes, OR you can flush some water to cool it down. After all, it's still an HX. For my usage, I pull max 2 shots back to back. So the 3 minutes window is perfectly fine for me.

It is close to a month now and I will still get a Mara X if I am offered a choice. But in the future if I move to a bigger house, I am definitely considering a dual boiler.

That said, Mara X being a E61 machine definitely requires more fiddling and maintenance. Lubing the lever cam is a must after chemical backflush. For a 100% peace of mind, non-E61 is better. I like tweaking stuff so I went with the tougher route!

oh. hmmm. how does those off brands like BSBoss/Donlim on shopee do?
Abit not keen on nespresso cause I want to learn how to do it haha. and Tuning it maybe is part of the fun.

thinking.about moka pot as well, but that I think is not espresso pressure. hmmm

Thinking to head closer to espresso land.
Yea i like coffee, haha. I scout around for good local type coffees from kopitiams around and mark them. And if im at home i just do a pour over through filter. But it's still off taste sometimes(mostly tend to get sour when i did it wrong). Still learning. Possibly due to many factors but definitely my cheap cheap hand grinder that spits out inconsistent grind size is a factor as well. =P

Nespresso is having a high recurring cost hence it feels kinda 
Maybe a good compromise would be an Ikea Moka Pot + grinder update, while saving up for a 1k+ espresso machine?

Ive been using a Flair (Classic) for a couple of years now; extremely happy with it. For the home environment, it's very hard to find any shortcoming in terms of the espresso it produces... shoots well above its class. True pressure-derived espresso, crema and all. However, just as with any true espresso, grind quality is critical, so you will need a proper espresso grinder to pair with it. A manual steel burr grinder like 1ZPresso, LingLong ACE48, Commandante (preferably with Red Clix), Kinu and the like.

The Pros are very capable devices and I've never heard anyone regretting their decision in getting this model compared to the others; however, if you are really tight on the budget, the Classic and Signature do not compromise on the quality of the espresso; only on quantity (20-30% smaller maximum shot size).

I also have a Cafflano Kompresso; interesting coffee but not in the same ballpark as the Flair.

As for the milk part, there's using a French Press. Quite a few YouTubes out there showing that the texture is good enough even for latte art (if that's what you are after). Alternatively, you can spring for a Nanofoamer when it comes out.

the flair is very good... for a bit more funky look you have the cafelat robot

the elizabeth, i cant get past the silvia lookalike to be interested...

I will be ordering the Cafelat Robot from HK soon ....

How have I not see this thread before. Hello! I only recently started making coffee at home, I have a Gemilai CRM3605 and a Fellow Opus Grinder at home. Recently I'm having issue with getting my puck pressure up to 9bar, water starts flowing around 4 or 5 bar only. Making my grinds finer causes even faster flow. Any sifu here got any idea why?

Complete noob here but what's an OPV?

My double walled glass too small, I need to get a bigger one. Recently tried making iced americano but substitute the plain water with Schweppes Ginger Ale, good stuffs

Hi, anyone know if we buy coffee machine from taobao, will it impose any import tax if ship to Malaysia?