patryn33 & ymeng85;

All points valid & concur. The steeply diminishing marginal utility is true in almost everything ... cars, photography, hi-fi, smartphones, etc.

For me, I'm always on the lookout for the "hidden gem", off-the-beaten-track option. Once in a while, there are some options that simply don't lie on the price vs quality curve at all... it's just that the lack of branding makes for crazy value-for-money, only if you are willing to look at the option objectively.

This is often true with the made-in-China stuff. For too long, these have been synonymous with poor quality rip-offs. However, in certain areas there have been a renaissance; eg. with the Android market, you have Xiaomi, Oppo, Huawei. Now most people look at these brands either neutrally or favourably.....two years ago, the same would have laughed them off.

The espresso equipment scene appears to be dictated by the West. There are almost zero objective, side-by-side comparisons/reviews with Asian alternatives. That's why I often challenge the de rigueur choices mooted in this & other forums, unless backed by actual experience or hard facts.

Please excuse my limited knowledge on this, but with grinders, you're probably paying more for consistency over time, convenience and quality (again, emphasis on "probably").

Take a Hario grinder as a base.
An Aeropress may require a grind at click 6 or 7.
But the floating burr design means somewhat inconsistent grinds, and the levels of adjustment may not be as larger a range as a higher tier machine.
I mean, what if the recipe calls for click 6.5? Or even 6.75?

The real question here is, how would we know if a machine we buy could *actually* produce consistent grinds?
Companies can boast all they want, but if we don't have a particle spectrometer on hand, we may never know..

It's really down to those who've had a great deal of time testing these machines (baristas, reviewers, etc).
As @ymeng85 mentioned, find one that suits your needs, try to get as much info possible about maybe 3 grinders you like, choose by elimination.

Don't forget to factor in serviceability as well.
I made a mistake of buying something back then which only had support in the Europe, was a nightmare getting parts.

But seriously, if money is of no objection, EK43 haha!

It's a dream that everybody wants to get hold of, myself included, finding that oh so greatly cheap YET superbly performing product. An underdog, dark knight, love deserving gem
Very tough to find, big risks(new model/brand or kickstarter) but hugely rewarding when it comes true
Maybe once in 4 years.....kinda like today!

well im just a 1 cup per day person only, so i guess zd-16 is enough?

I make 2 cups a day & it a 64mm burrs...so 1 cup means 58mm burrs...

Go ahead...keep us waiting...

what grinder u are using now?

IMHO...value for money peaks around 58mm burrs size grinder...for home use this is quite enough...

Breville can't grind light & light-medium beans...Ive not seen welhome so can't comment...

I have a Bregant and a Mazzer...both 64mm burrs...

I think physics limits the performance of a 35mm burr... unless U saying alot of R&D went into it and it produces just as good as those 80mm burr.
Italian made 1.8L engine vs chinese make space rocket.. I am sure chinese made rocket go faster.
if they were to make a 80mm burr and compare with Italian 80mm, there is a good chance they performance on par. but quality depends on QC.

phone Xiaomi and huawei is using establish HW and running on open source Android.
Chinese use more phones than the west. The west drinks more espresso than east.
if U talk tea, East dominates.

yes I have to agree many see 58mm enough for $$ vs quality.

2 machines at same burr size! u open for biz


@ lowkl, didn't do much research on Welhome they have any 58mm product?

This post has been edited by patryn33: Mar 1 2016, 12:06 AM

From all the photos I can see, all the Welhome / WPM grinders have conical burrs, so doubtful it will be more than 35mm. A lot of documentation is in Chinese which I don't read, so will have to Google Translate to see if there are any more details.

Sigh! Given all the feedback on large burrs being so critical, looks like I will stick to my sub RM 300 600N grinder. Just need to mod it to reduce the ridiculous amount of retained grounds....

of course one can source other PRC stuff HC-600 looks good at 64mm
eg
http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/14654-feima-grinder.html
http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/grinders/559095

http://www.heycafe.com/en/hc-600-odg.html

no lah...home use only...bought used for a price I couldn't refuse...

one modded doserless for daily poison...other maintained for parties...

while both are 64mm...the grind is different...and taste differently also...

64mm is the bread and butter size for café...

the small conical 38mm Tre Spade burrs are quite well received...the breville burrs are quite well designed too

the technical problems with these small burrs design are the motor, gear assembly and burr holder, not the burrs...the universal motor uses carbon brush and these wears out over time and its noisy...the motor is small and struggles with harder light, light-medium roasted beans...the gears for speed reduction is noisy...many small parts...if they use plastic gears they break...the metal motor shaft joins a plastic gear and can wear off or break...the burr holders if using cheap plastic can wobble when grinding...the grind adjustment is not that precise...

they are short life-cycle product...very fast obsolete...usually 1:1 replacements instead of individual part replacements...cut corners to maintain low price...

nothing against these home appliances consumer grinders...just know that some are designed better than others...nothing against people buying them too as we all have to start somewhere...

in contrast to commercial grinders designed for reliability...big brushless silent running motor...two industrial bearings...no gears...metal burr holders and grind adjustment...that's it...

lets compare value then...

say buy cheap grinder @RM1000 and it lasts 10 yrs...so for the next 30 yrs you will buy 3 grinders, spent RM3000 drinking mediocre coffee, or spent RM3000+ one time for a commercial grinder that will last generations...and start drinking excellent coffee NOW...

that's why I say...best try to jump straight for a commercial unit...

the feima and heycafe I've seen on local sites...may be available locally but its not that cheap...

Coming back to my original question a few posts back....do these lower cost machines objectively produce "mediocre" output, as you put it? Ideally I would prefer to judge for myself through a side-by-side shootout. Of course this does not address the durability issue, but for home users this may not be as much a concern... many of us only pull one to three shots a day. Furthermore our technique & espresso machines may also not be so top-quality so we may not be able to realize the optimum output anyways.

Lastly, while the commercial grinders may last 30 years, there's a distinct possibility I won't....

Very technical. Very detailed. So much win in this post
I avoided the temptations of the 50+mm range and went for a used 64mm as well. If only I could work out a doserless mod so that I don't have to use a brush to clear the output channel for every shot

do you drink charbucks/sanfrancisco/coffeebean/etc? does it tastes ok? if yes then these low cost grinders with fresh beans are a measurable improvements and should get you started nicely...

some grinders are better than others, lelit for example is quite good.

here's the thing...why are we in this this hobby? what is it we're trying to achieve?

if I have a good grinder/machine and make lousy coffee...I know I screw up, learn from my mistakes and do better next time

if I have a lousy grinder/machine and make good coffee...two conclusions (1) I have reached the pinnacle as a barista, (2) I don't know better

the question then is...how do I know...(1) or (2)? I know I can't reach the pinnacle starting with lousy grinder/machine because all three...me/grinder/machine are the variables and limiting factor...so for me to improve, I need to be the limiting factor [that means (2) ] and not my grinders and machines...you get what i'm saying?...


now...where do I stop w.r.t grinders/machines?...that is a discussion for another day...

that great...what did you get?