any government officer who hv budget they need to used up?

This material helps you to understand why your leaders concerned about speak in tongue:

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/supernat...nce-of-the-gift


Let's have an example:

Our Prime Minister Najib, let's convert him to be a Christian. How to convert Mr Najib to be a christian ?
You cannot preach, nor come to his house, nor visit his office in putrajaya. Simply cannot.

But you can ask GOD to send him a dream, any dream that can lead Mr Najib to receive Christ as savior.

Sound simple right ? sending him dream is spiritual activity. Human cannot do that using present technology. it will be a spritual warfare, because you pissed devil when you did activity above.

doing that, devil will attack you. Why attack you, because you ask. Bible say you ask and it will be given to you.
If you are threathen, if you are nullified, you will not ask. Therefore you will not be given.

Most of the spiritual warfare is used to win soul for Christ. But the same warfare is waged to to deliver sickness, command wealth, reduce crimes, fix broken family, fix marriage, bless nations, etc...

What did Jesus say when he spoke to the Roman governor Pilate before his cruxification?

John 18:33-36 (NIV)

33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

35“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Though He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords but Jesus said, this world is NOT his kingdom.
What does that tell you?

The answer is this: Our current world is a fallen world ruled by Satan. And thus God will not rule this world as how he will rule in the New Kingdom where He is king and will govern righteously.

This means that if we don't pray, God will not act. You cannot assume just because God is sovereign, everything will fall into place, you must pray because God works through his people in this world. Same thing with warfare, we have to pray, not assume that everything will be alright just because God is sovereign.

In a way your mission leader is right.

Would you mind telling me where in scripture you got your stuff from please? It'll be easier to talk about it that way

esp. "command wealth" I don't know anywhere in the Bible that would teach us to do something "spiritual" so that we may be wealthy; Jesus himself didn't seem to say alot of good things about the rich.

"reduce crime" No doubt we are living in a sinful world that is tainted with sin, and we should always pray against it; but do our prayers "move" God to decide to end crime?


I guess my biggest problem with all of this is how it puts US on the control seat or as if the holy spirit was some sort of entity that we have to learn how to master in order to get things done. From what I understand of the bible, the person sitting on the throne and in the control room is God, not us. We don't decide who gets the dreams or visions, God does. We don't decide (through any "spiritual means") whether or not our broken families get fixed, God does.

Of course, you could prove me wrong, and I'm open to whatever you have to say: But my only concern is how we determine what is "true". We shouldn't rely on just what some famous american pastor tells us, rather it should be properly derived from scripture cos it's God's word right?

Read on from the text: If Jesus was simply saying to Pilate that he wasn't powerful enough here because it's not his kingdom, he wouldn't have said the things he said (i.e. I was born for this reason (what reason?)..)
I think it's all pointing to something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy2AQlK6C5k...t=TLlRKw9UdEtCA

I don't doubt that our world is a fallen world and that God's kingdom isn't here NOW yet; nor am I saying that just because God is sovereign we should just sit back and enjoy the movie.

I'm not saying "don't pray", no, pray. But what do we pray about and why do we pray, that is the concern. While Jesus taught us to pray that "God's will be done", we're busy praying about what we *think* is God's will but we don't know because the bible is too hard to read. Prayer should lead us to be in submission to Christ and be humbled by the work that he has done, not to puff us up so that we can claim to have some "supernatural" power that other people don't.

To put it simply, we shouldn't be praying independently of trying to know God's will through his word: in this case, is speaking/praying in tongues really necessary? Does tongues make me a "better" Christian than someone else? No it doesn't. So why, why is there more emphasis on tongues than the faithful teaching and preaching of the gospel?

Reading all the epistles of Paul, what's more blatantly important to him? whether everyone's speaking in tongues or whether or not the gospel that of Jesus Christ dying for undeserving sinners, saving them through grace,and rising on the third day?

Here's a real world example:
You're going to a third world country to preach the gospel to people who barely understand or have not heard of the gospel, what are your priorities?
(1)Pray that God will help you understand His word better and that you will be faithful to what you're teaching and preaching and that the people there will learn, AND THEN you work hard to make sure that you and your team are equipped to do the work there and won't teach heresy there

OR

(2)Make sure everyone in your team prays in tongues X times a week, fast breakfast every Monday and during group meetings: the priority is always to pray together in tongues without an interpreter.

In my case, (2) happened. And what happened when we were on the field? A few hundred village teens who are hardcore poor heard a sermon that told them how God was gonna bless them (in context, it was in a material way) if they remain righteous in him. So in other words, these poor village folk were taught that this whole relationship with God works this way: You obey him, he gives you stuff on earth, you guys clearly don't have alot of stuff right now because you're poor but don't worry, God's gonna bless you with wealth because you're Christians!

It was disgusting.



And of course on a complete separate issue: speaking in tongues corporately without an interpreter seems to be going against what scripture is teaching in 1 Corinthians 12-14 like what the other guy was saying. If this is what the Bible is teaching, shouldn't we obey it? :/

Btw everything I typed should be read in a happy and reasonable tone; there is no anger or hate involved in the typing of this message



Also, I think this is testimony would be good to understand what I'm trying to say too (think in terms of what the "focus" is)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94uqMo68ZDo


She's a paraplegic (semi-paralyzed) who sung a really nice song that nearly won an oscar called "Alone but not alone" (check that out too!)


This post has been edited by Decky: Nov 1 2014, 02:29 AM

The experience of Jacob

God's Sovereignty Seen in Leading Jacob to Meet Rachel and Laban

In chapter twenty-nine of Genesis, Jacob was put into the transformation room, after coming to Laban's home. As we have seen, Isaac, Rebekah, and Esau worked together to force Jacob to escape from his home. Isaac was simple, easygoing, and not disposed to exercise his discernment. This was his disposition and character. Rebekah, however, was clever, ingenious, and manipulative. Being a strong wife and mother, she manipulated the whole family. Esau, the brother, was not very intelligent, but he was physically strong and excericed his strength to kill him. These three people worked together as a team to chase Jacob away, forcing him to leave his loving mother and his father's home. Jacob suffered on his journey by the fact that he "lifted up his voice and wept" when he saw his cousin Rachel (29:11). Jacob had been very lonesome. All that he had experienced prior to coming to Laban's home was simply to bring him into the "room of transformation". In chapter twenty-nine, Jacob was admitted to this room.

God sovereignly brought Jacob to meet Rachel and Laban (29:1-14). After traveling a very long distance, Jacob came to a certain place, supposing it to be the place where his uncle Laban lived. The Bible does not say that Jacob was groping for the right place, moving from one place to another. No, it says that he came to just one place and that he immediately discovered that it was the place where Laban lived. After conversing briefly with some people at the well, Jacob met Rachel, his uncle Laban's daughter.

It was God's sovereignty that Rachel came and not Leah. We know that this was God's sovereign arrangement because in 28:15 God promised Jacob, saying, "Behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of." God was faithful and kept His word, regulating Jacob's steps and bringing him to Laban's dwelling place. Then God brought Rachel to meet Jacob at the well. In 24:13-32, Rebekah and Laban were met by Isaac's servant. Here Rachel and Laban are met by Jacob himself. In this we see God's sovereignty.

We all are God's chosen ones. We must believe that whatever happens to you is of God. Whatever happened to us in the past, or is taking place in the present, is of God. Never be discontented with your circumstances. As one of God's chosen ones, your destiny is in God's hand and your destination is under His direction. Your coming into the church life was not an accident. It was brought about by the hand of the God who has chosen you. Not only are we under God's thumb; we are also in His hand. Whenever you are about to deal with something, you will hold it fast in your hand. Do not be afraid of being under God's thumb, for this is a sign that you are in His hand.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 1 2014, 08:17 AM

Because you wrote this: But my only concern is how we determine what is "true" then you demonstrated that you love Jesus. fair enough ?

Out of your love to Jesus, HS told me that there is an evil spirit that works behind you. It's a type of "wolf in sheep" clothing called religious spirit. Therefore in the name of Jesus, i bind work of religious spirit behind Decky and i cast down all stronghold that religious spirit works behind Decky. Let Decky only submit to HS (Holy Spirit) as Jesus is the only true GOD and true KING. In the name of Jesus i pray. Amen !


You wrote if i can prove you wrong, then you open for suggestion. If you bound by religious spirit, all i say is wrong. If you worked under religious spirit, you will find many of HS replies are nonsense.

let's put into practice:
1. Let's pray: Father, in the name of Jesus i rebuke religious spirit and i only allow HS to speak to my life.
2. Let's put bible verse: Matthew 12:30 ... "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters....
3. About my Post #67, ask HS. Which part, according to HS, is against Christ ? because bible say Mat 12:30 whoever is not with me is against me.
4. Your understanding in Post #69, ask HS. Ask HS is decky's understanding with Christ or against Christ.
3. Any teaching both protestant / charismatics, ask HS before you put into your heart.

why ask HS ? because asking HS is biblical. It demonstrate that you are humbly before Holy Spirit that your mind, your understanding, cannot comprehend almighty GOD understanding. Therefore you need Holy Spirit to counsel you.

Ask HS also the only way to test the spirit 1 John 4:1. Who can test the spirit if not the stronger / better spirit ? who is the strong of the strongest and king of King ? Jesus Christ.

----

1)
Ha, that is why if you continue reading, Jesus said this:

If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.

That is to answer what you ask about,



That there are no automated process just because God is sovereign over the devil (Fallen world) and as I asked you earlier about



Same meaning to that verse.


And regarding this

No that is not what Jesus means. Think about the portion of that verse that says this: If it were, my servants would fight...... meaning to say the reverse is also true, If it weren't my servants wouldn't fight...

This is not about whether God is powerful or not, we all know, He is and that is not the issue.


2)
And what you asked about what to pray for and interestingly you said this:

And



Well to answer you, then Yes it is necessary.

Romans 8:26-27 (NIV) - In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

The word there wordless groans is praying in tongues. And here in the context when you pray in tongues, The HS helps intercede according to the will of God.


3)
Why do you need an interpreter for? When a Christian pray in tongues even in a small group for mission, Is He/She praying to God or prophesying for the team? What is the purpose?
You must understand these are 2 different things.

If everyone is praying to God in tongues, you certainly do not need an interpreter for because he/she is praying to God.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NIV) - For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

And in the following verse, it says there

1 Corinthians 14:3 (NIV) - But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

The HS separate these 2 purpose. I don't understand why you don't seem to understand they are not the same.

What your mission group did was correct. Much prayer and fasting is needed. Don't under estimate the HS. He can use what was spoken by that mission to plant seed into those villagers. The problem is you understood the natural in your mind with how things are but you forgot, our God works his miracle beginning from the day the seed is planted to the kairos time of Harvest. You will never know, by what your mission team did will impact their lives later.

4)

And to answer what you asked here



Both are important. The Apostle Paul did not say which is more important but He did say He rather everyone speak in tongues. Here is the evidence.


1 Corinthians 14:5 - I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.


Many people understand the verse above like this in error: Prophesying supersede Speaking in tongues and because there is no interpreter most of the time, then don't speak in tongues.

Do you see the error of what is said above actually does not match the meaning in 1 Corinthians 14:5.

Try and digest it slowly. God will make it clear to you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 1 2014, 10:35 AM

can i add?

i believe there are different types of tongues. the tongues which require an interpreter are speaking in other's natives language

while the other is when we pray to the Father

is it completely necessary? someone once told me, when we can't pray, the Holy Spirit intercedes with us (with our inner man)

if you are going to ask for bible reference.... i'll have to go look it up

I already did, it's just above your post at the early part of my explanation. At point No. 2.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 1 2014, 10:22 AM

Looks like you don't understand the verse yourself. Paul has clearly stated that he would rather have people prophesy than speak in tongues, and show love rather than have all those spiritual gifts. This is not to say that these gifts are not important, but one is clearly more important than the other. Also, if no interpreter is present, they should keep silent.

Love > Prophecy > Tongues

Compare this with the practice of alot of churches today where everyone bursts into speaking in tongues. Paul would shake his head if he saw that happen.

27 No more than two or three should speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. 28 But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28

Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:39-41

This post has been edited by kernan.rio: Nov 1 2014, 11:39 AM

Bro, there's no 1 Corinthians 12:39-41

1 Corinthians 12:12-31 is talking about how we need to be united in the body of Christ, for each one is given different gifting and we all need each other but it's not talking about Speaking in tongues to instruct in prophecy.

This speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians 12:30 is talking about speaking in tongues of other languages is not the same as speaking in tongues in prayer to God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 1 2014, 11:57 AM

Good morning!

Interestingly enough, if you read John 18:36d (my servants would have been fighting), the footnote point towards Jesus' saying in Matt 26:53 where Jesus said that Jesus could have summoned a legion of angels to fight for him. But again, when reading the bible, we cannot simple take one verse or a few verses and rip it off from it's original context or the context of the whole Bible, so I don't think Jesus was talking about spiritual warfare here.

Again, watch the first video I posted earlier, I think this was Jesus talking AGAIN about how he is fulfilling all of God's promises in the OT! Isn't that good news?

As for the "automated" process: I don't know what you mean here, but suffice to say I don't think it's that easy in an "automated" way too! Again, I believe that we ought to pray, but again to reiterate my point: We musn't misplace our priorities!

Now as for tongues...

Romans 8

Here's a helpful article to read that argues that it cannot be referring to tongues : https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-50-spir...y-romans-826-27

To borrow a quote from the article:


Why is it that if speaking in tongues is a valid gift today, it is only for some? Well read 1 Cor 12-14 of course (specifically 1 Cor 12:27-30)! Which brings us to the next part...

You say



Read the whole bulk of 1 Cor 14 (actually 12-14 would help you understand the big idea of what's going on there);

I think the essence of what me and the other dude has been trying to say is here:

1 Cor 14:6-12 ESV

And further down the text

again I must reiterate: I'm not talking about private prayer in tongues or whether or not the gift has ceased or not. The point of the text and our argument is to show that what Paul was teaching here is LOVE (aka 1 corinthians 13).

He is EXPLICITLY saying here that although he "thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than all of them", he would rather speak five words in his mind in order to instruct others. And in the immediate context, he gives his argument for this: Tongues without interpretation just isn't building other people up! In the whole bulk of 1 Cor 12-14, Paul has been telling them this over and over again: Church is other person centered and it's not about YOU.

Again, if we're going to learn from God's word, we have to read it in context! We can't just pull out one verse and put our own meaning into it: It's putting OUR words into God's words!


I am not "underestimating" the Holy Spirit, but the problem already lies with your reply: "The HS will use whatever that was preached to impact other people's lives"
Really? What was being spouted wasn't what God's word taught, it didn't was in fact dangerously close to be saying "Remain in Christ because he's gonna materially bless you", which is an utter distortion of the gospel.

Is God sovereign? Yes. But what does the Bible have to say about this well hmm...

When some Jewish Christians tried to convince (and was a little succesful) the Galatian church that in order to be saved, they had to be circumcised as well, this is how Paul (who usually starts his letters with a thanksgiving) starts his letter



And then..

Notice how strong Paul comes off regarding the issue. Did he just throw up his arms and pray that the Holy Spirit would work through this false teaching? No! In fact, if you believe that the Bible = God's word, it was the Holy Spirit who was speaking through Paul to the church in Galatia! And this is just a small example, read through all the epistles and notice how Paul was always reminding the church to hold fast to sound doctrine and becareful of false teachers and their teaching, especially when it comes close to distorting the gospel!


Further reading:

https://bible.org/article/argument-1-corinthians-12-14

This post has been edited by Decky: Nov 1 2014, 11:59 AM

lol you say like this, you win liao lor.

When I said that, what I meant was that we cannot rely on our feelings to know truth about God, we need to go back to Scripture.

I urge you to read your Bible more before charging another Christian for having some "religious spirit" when you won't even make any effort to check the scriptures to see what is right or to work it out from God's word.

Will pray for you

bro, pls read UW context on whole...

Perhaps your old mindset prohibits you to see the whole context ? bible is not only corinthians, why focus on the corinthians at expense of other books ?

there is john oso writes Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. ... gal 5:1 say we are free.

If Mr A speak in tongue bla..bla..bla..bla.. and Mr B speak in tongue bla..bla..bla..bla..bla.. both of them use that language to worship GOD, it's their liberty. Gal 5:1 say mr A and B are free. GOD does not need humans to translate

If Mr A talk to Mr B in tongue... bla..bla..bla..bla..bla.. and Mr B reply to Mr A in tongue bla..bla..bla..bla... this one is better with interpreter. Or else i can use ur language.. Paul would shake his head

--
At the end, we ask GOD: should we obey 1 Cor 14:28 or we focus on John 4:23 + Galatian 5:1... ? HS told them various answer depends on the leader.
e.q.
GBI Bethani Jakarta almost = City Harvest KL or SG.... full throthle speaking in tongue regardless everybody comfortable or not.
Joel Osteen... don't speak in tongue in his service, but only during prayer session (not primary sunday service / TV aired services).
DUMC... speak in tongue only in prayer session before service. During service no.

Don't get boxed bro... choose community that focus on wining soul directly or indirectly. Not arguing Corinthians like those protestant lines.

Angels Fighting or defending in the heavenly realm is spiritual warfare.

Bro you're going all over the places. I'm not talking about Speaking in tongues to instruct in prophecy for others. If you do that, then 1 Corinthians 14:6-25 applies. No where Am I against 1 Corinthians 14:6-25.

Try and digest these 2 verse, do you think they're talking about the same thing?

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.


Do you see the word there "but"? What does that tell you?

Exactly, they are being contrasted here: Prophecy and tongues. You say you are not talking about "speaking in tongues to instruct in prophecy for others", what does that mean? Paul is distinguishing the two here really clearly.

The tongues mentioned in the text I think, will most probably refer to what you mean by tongues.

Do you understand what 1 Corinthians 14:6 means?


Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

* Brother and sisters here referring to believers.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 1 2014, 12:19 PM

Scripture is complete bro, but our / mine / yours understanding of scripture is not.... tomorrow you / me will have something learn, tomorrow oso another soul lost.

The problem is, Christ is not happy the church is not winning soul directly or indirectly.

Why depend on your understanding more than depending HS ?

today HS can say shut up and read ur bible...
tomorrow HS can say go and give money to poor...

if you focus on your understanding, then you will not move until you are confidence with what biblical or not right ? at what expense you wanna do it ? 10 year study and have 10 year lost of soul ?

I know you love Jesus. But you have to trust Jesus to lead you, with or without you understand bible. There are communities that already understand bible better than you. Check with HS throughly..

charismatics had bad records
protestant oso has bad records... do you think protesting is not against bible ? marthin luther protest with chatolic for whatsoever reason. didn' bible say 1 Samuel 15:23 that rebellion is like the sin of divination ?

that's why.. check with HS... why marthin luther prevails ? cuz GOD's allowing him to rebel because GOD is told him to rebel... how does marthin luther know ? cuz he loves Jesus. My sheep knows my voice saith the LORD

same like you. You also love Jesus.

Remember what I said earlier: Do not take a verse out of it's context and interpret it from there.

If you keep doing that, you can let the Bible say whatever you want it to say e.g. Pslams 14:1 ....There is no God. <<< Is the Bible saying that God doesn't exist?

Read the whole chapter, try to understand the context that Paul is talking to the Corinthian church (e.g. disunity because they believe that speaking in tongues = superior to other gifts, used to be pagans, unloving)

Try again.